Politics According To Krauthammer

Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 3 months ago to Politics
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I just finished Charles Krauthammer's last book, "Things That Matter." It is so brillian that I literally found over 100 topics to discuss in this forum. But I won't. At the very start of the book he makes the point that no matter how much effort he puts into writing about science,medicine, art, poetry,architecture, chess, space, sports, numbers, in the end they must "bow to the sovereignty of politics."In trying to move the spectre of politics off the table he got into the Voyager probes and whose voice narrated but Kurt Waldheim, a former NAZI. It prompted me to ask the Gulch one simple but extremely profound question: What one thing would you send on Voyager 1 and/or 2? Krauthammer finally winds up saying what biologist and philosopher Lewis Thomas proposed as evidence of human achievement ;the Complete works of Bach.(Personally, I would have chosen Beethoven). So, am asking this forum, if you were allowed to send only one item on Voyager 1 or 2, what would it be? Remember you are representing all of earth from fauna to flora, from philosophy to nonsense, from math to quantum. Just one thing. Music? Science? words? go for it.


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  • Posted by 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, we are a long way from a turnabout, but Trump continues to do the right thing.The result is the same whether to a great intellect such as Rand or a man who learned how to become rich but is by no means erudite.If the house s on fire, I don't care about the intellect of the only owner of a fire hose in the area.
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    • Posted by ewv 6 years, 3 months ago
      That so many don't care about ideas is a major reason why we are in this mess. If your house is on fire, you had better care about the 'intellect' of someone who knows how to put it out. Trump does not and is not.
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  • Posted by 6 years, 3 months ago
    Looks like my family's ten year reunion. Their ideas are as concretized as those Moeis.
    I always hoped to visit there. Should I initiate a go fund me page. Actually I rather go to Puma Punko in Central America, they have dozens of beautifully rendered giant stone letter "H" beautifully rendered, which are totally impossible.
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  • Posted by bassboat 6 years, 3 months ago
    The Bible says it all about the Earth and mankind.
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    • Posted by Solver 6 years, 2 months ago
      Imagine an object crashing to earth with an alien Bible buried very deep within it. Imagine all the things we could learn about their religious beliefs and their God(s). After translating their language, what would we really be able to deduce about this alien culture?
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      • Posted by 6 years, 2 months ago
        If, like ours, their bible is based on mysticism, I'm afraid we won't learn much.I think it's more likely to find instruction books on their craft wich could tell us about their scientific, not to mention their social behavior.I think that there may well be some explanation to the universe that may have non mystical insights into its origin other than the silliness of the Big Bang.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 3 months ago
      Really? How about a few quotes that illustrate your point.
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        Posted by bassboat 6 years, 3 months ago
        it would take more time to answer your question here but allow me to give some examples.
        A Creator is the one responsible for the Earth and the universe, not some happenstance crazy boom. The Bible takes you through the various stages of God's chosen people and their peaks and valleys. Man was trapped by sin from the original sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and were doomed to die as a result. God told of His plan for a Savior throughout the Old Testament and as a result Jesus comes on the scene promising people an eternal life if they believed on Him as their Savior and through Him they would be able to attain eternal life in Heaven. He did miracles while he was here on earth. A perfect example of Him feeding 5,000 men pus women and children with 3 fish and 7 loaves of bread. That story was told there is record of anyone disputing it so by that record alone you have to conclude that Jesus was who He said He was, God's son. Many other miracles occur in the New Testament if you will read it. None have been rejected by the people that knew if they were true or not, the people of His time. There will be an end to this earth one day and no one knows when that will come. Remember, it takes more faith to believe in nothing than something and God sent Jesus, a living, breathing man here on earth to live among us to show us the way to eternal salvation. don't forget that the 11 disciples that followed Him were all put to death in a very gruesome way except for John, They could have all rejected Christ if they renounced Him but none did. If that doesn't convince you then I pray that you will at least ponder on what I have written.
        It's really simple to be saved. If you are saved or become saved it will change your life forever, today while you are here on earth and later in your heavenly home.
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        • Posted by ewv 6 years, 3 months ago
          Whatever the claim that the "Bible says it all about the Earth and mankind" was supposed to mean in somehow representing earth to an imagined alien, adding ancient fantasy as "examples" further departs from reality. Expecting a serious answer to Herb's (perhaps rhetorical question) is far too optimistic. This is not the place to engage in Bible thumping.
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          • -1
            Posted by bassboat 6 years, 3 months ago
            The Bible teaches how the earth and man were created. These fantasies are history by people who saw events. If you believe in history then you should believe in the Bible.
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            • Posted by ewv 6 years, 3 months ago
              This is a forum for Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason and individualism. It is not a place to promote religion, which is the opposite. Primitive myths from thousands of years ago about the supernatural promoted as sacred text is not history. There are places you can go to promote your faith. This isn't one of them.
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              • Posted by megamail 6 years, 3 months ago
                Hi ewv,

                Not that I agree with what bassboat said...
                AND I do not intend to start a flame war here,
                BUT saying that the Bible is all bad seems an ignorant position to take and you are much wiser than that! Having a knee-jerk reaction to anyone using the Bible as a way to explain a philosophical or historical viewpoint is also ignorant.

                The "book" in and of itself is not bad at all. It is a historical artifact. Many of its stories have been corroborated by Modern science. And believe it or not, there is actually quite a bit in there that is in alignment with Objectivist thinking. Really there is! (Obviously not all of it). And when read as an allegory, it is filled with poetic, insightful and enlightening messages.

                Remember that the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged were ALSO teaching tool allergories. Each has their place.

                The demise of the Bible as a teaching tool is more linked to the fact that imperfect human 'interpreters twist the original Aramaic and Greek words; They manipulate the plot-lines to serve their own purposes; And despots and religious zealots use this book to subvert peoples thinking to enslave them. But again - that should have no bearing on objectively researching the original Biblical words and concepts themselves.

                I am especially amused at those who insist the BIBLE is the only true and 'holy word of G_D.'
                IF G_D exists - then everything is his holy word right!?! The Bible is written by some interesting storytellers, some wise and other maybe not as much... IN THE LONG RUN, it is also a book that was compiled by fallible humans.

                Just my 2 cents. Back to Krauthammer, G*D's messenger for reason in the Modern World ;-p
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                • Posted by Lucky 6 years, 3 months ago
                  The Bible, as an allegory, it is filled with poetic, insightful and enlightening messages.
                  It is not an allegory, it has many of those things but it is not filled with them. It is a set of stories, compiled at various times best seen as myths with merits as literature and as a guide to the history and anthropology of those times.

                  As an atheist outside academia I am a comparatively frequent reader of the Bible. I read to pick out the stupidities and the gory bits to quote at enemies (wink), but mostly as the language has such beauty and dignity. This attraction is a characteristic of the King James largely absent in other translations. While the translation team (yes it was a team) was excellent, the language would have been close to that spoken at the time.
                  I recall when I listened to an audiobook of The Scarlett Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, I just had to read some of the passages as well as listen.

                  As to the Bible as history, it is part of history, but as a reliable source - mixed, sometimes agreeing with other sources, or not. As history, maybe better than 50%; but as science, worse.

                  Herb7734, to divert further from your post if I may, there are many naturalistic explanations for the origins. I like the the Magic Mushroom of John Allegro, The Book of J by Harold Bloom is more conventional.
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                  • Posted by ewv 6 years, 3 months ago
                    Yes, to rationalize the Bible as an allegory is improper. Some of the stories within it are allegories but overall it is mythology intended to be taken as the truth. Devotion to the supernatural, supernatural causes, faith, and duty were not metaphors for something else. They meant it. Many invalid concepts were promoted using metaphorical thinking because that was the only way to put them over, but they meant the mysticism. They are not insightful or enlightening. The contradictions became so intellectually embarrassing that the promoters had to try to have it both ways by recasting them as allegories, which resulted in theological debates within religion over how "literally" to take Bible. It is not "ignorant" to reject it.

                    It isn't a source of history at all (not "maybe better than 50%") since you never know what might have been true, even when confined to earthly accounts that may be, without checking more objective evidence. As science, it simply isn't, not just worse than 50%. Sacred text and appeals to the supernatural are the opposite of science.
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                  • Posted by 6 years, 3 months ago
                    The problem with the bible is that it is taken to be an instruction book upon which to base one's life. As such it is pretty much a failure. I'm not going to go over all the pros and cons which have mucked up philosophical discussions over the centuries only to say that if you want linguistic beauty in English, I suggest Shakespeare's sonnets or his plays, most of which are filled with morality.lessons. As a fellow atheist I am sure you've likely been over this at least a thousand times.
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                • Posted by 6 years, 3 months ago
                  I am not about to take on the bible and several thousand years of religion. There are many stories based on fact in the bible, but by the time they were written down as a guidebook for religion(s) they became much altered in order to fit the narrative. But why would we even consider it when we've got two great heroic guidebooks and many books of polemics to do the job. However, We must remember never to make Ayn Rand's books, whether fiction, philosophy or fact the exclusive ideas and cut off anything new in any realm which is what some devotees do. There are no ultimate answers. If there were we'd be at endgame with all the knowledge in the universe, and there's a long, long road ahead before we get there, if we ever do.
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                  • Posted by ewv 6 years, 3 months ago
                    The mythology of the Bible is mixed with some background accounts sometimes partially related to real events at the time. Those references have sometimes been correlated with other, more objective sources of historical evidence. It is interesting to learn what we can about antiquity, leaving the mythological supernaturalism and behavioral injunctions out of it.

                    But it doesn't make the Bible "history" and the essence of stripping myth from the historical relations is not linguistic "interpretation" of words from ancient languages. However interesting it can be to understand more of ancient human history, the major historical significance of the Bible is its long history of enormous destructive influence on western civilization. There is not "actually quite a bit in there that is in alignment with Objectivist thinking", which claim is simply bizarre. Nor is it "filled with poetic, insightful and enlightening messages".

                    Rejecting the Bible as a non-objective source of history, let alone its role as "sacred text" and "a way to explain a philosophical or historical viewpoint" is not an "ignorant" "knee-jerk reaction", which accusation in megamail's post is a gratuitous, manipulative insult.

                    No one is "making Ayn Rand's books the exclusive ideas and cutting off anything new in any realm". No one does that and there is no good purpose to posting such a slur on this forum, posing as mature advice that "must be remembered". Adding that "there are no ultimate answers" also adds nothing of value; the vague use of undefined "ultimate answers" typically implies an irrelevant mystical notion of the nature of knowledge superseding what is known objectively and with certainty, whether from Ayn Rand or any other legitimate source.
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                    • Posted by megamail 6 years, 3 months ago
                      ewv, I apologize for the insult.
                      I believe I said it was a historical artifact - not history.
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                      • Posted by ewv 6 years, 3 months ago
                        My discussion involved three posts. Bassboat misused the mythology as if it were history to promote religious beliefs, which has no place here. In your post you called the Bible an artifact, then went beyond that to say there is "actually quite a bit in there that is in alignment with Objectivist thinking" and that it is "filled with poetic, insightful and enlightening messages", which aren't true, and to assert that "[S]aying that the Bible is all bad seems an ignorant position to take" and "Having a knee-jerk reaction to anyone using the Bible as a way to explain a philosophical or historical viewpoint is also ignorant". As an artifact revealing the nature of primitive beliefs at an historical time, and to identify the original source of destructive ideas that have had a huge impact, the Bible is valuable evidence; it is not valuable as a guide to or explanation of human life with enlightening messages compatible with Objectivism or otherwise, which contemporary interpretation is not the role of an artifact, and rejecting that is not ignorant. An artifact is all it is good for.

                        Also The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are serious, integrated philosophical novels, not "teaching tool allegories" "ALSO" like the Bible. Most works of fiction are not allegories (and neither was the Bible).
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              • Posted by EgoPriest 6 years, 2 months ago
                Ayn Rand would never have been so malevolent toward a possible ally. It's obvious that not everyone is here to represent (or misrepresent) our(?) clearly defined philosophy. Be a mentor, not a dementor.
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                • Posted by ewv 6 years, 2 months ago
                  Bassboat has been here for over four years. The inappropriateness of promoting religion on this forum has been discussed many times previously. I am not "malevolent".
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                  • Posted by EgoPriest 6 years, 2 months ago
                    It makes no difference to me personally whether he's been here 40 days or 40 years.

                    I'll respect the benefit of the "doubt" policy (if not grant principled respect to the doubter). I {tew} have no time to waste on mysticism, but no topic is outside the scope of the true revolutionary's purview and if taking Galt's (entire) Oath is not the threshold for admittance (as witness all the "push-back") then I don't know what in principle can be, and I'll grant any honest "truth-seeker" an audience.

                    You'll notice I recommended the Valliant book "How Roman Emperors Invented Christianity" to him (assuming he ever shows his face here again after your harsh, druidic denunciation.) I adhere to the principle of rational engagement, but only on the assumption that I'm dealing with psychologically, if not intellectually honest minds.

                    And I only denounce it when instead of moderating, or changing course, it doubles down. Catch my drift?

                    For Galt's Sake, I will follow Ayn Rand's example as related in Facets of Ayn Rand by her close friend Mary-Ann Sures and Chales: [which I'm having a hard time finding in the clutter, unfortunately, but you might be familiar with the genuinely cordial relationship she had with her devoutly religious maid}.

                    There was none of this modern (or post-modern friction), this "fortress-mentality" in her inner-sanctum, her home. And it isn't necessary, there is no necessary conflict or obstacle to an honestly passionate valuer uncompromising in his insistence on reason and for liberty.

                    I'll look for the book. Keep swinging my legalistic rival for glory!! B^)
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            • Posted by EgoPriest 6 years, 2 months ago
              Yes, allegorically, as mentioned in Galt's Speech in Atlas Shrugged, God assigned Adam (the man) the role of Identifier when he commanded him to name all the living creatures (later Noah collects them into a floating laboratory) -- implying perhaps that Eve (woman) was best suited for naming the plants and other natural phenomena.

              It doesn't matter, but I do think The Mahabharata, Ramayana, Pentateuch, lliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, Orlando Furioso, Gibran's The Prophet, or (my definite preference) Atlas Shrugged all speak profoundly to the human condition.

              Most comprehensively, Sir Simon Fraser's "The Golden Bough" would give the "alien archeologists" probably the best overall view of the human condition before (or beyond) Aristotle and, what I call, History's "Golden Braid": Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Ayn Rand and...?

              [PS - Please ignore the haters uninterested in advancing anything. They speak for nothing and no-one but to their obviously questionable motives in "pushing back."]
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              • Posted by 6 years, 2 months ago
                Get a copy of Jean Christophe by Romain Roland. It is sort of a European version of The Fountainhead. Not as good, but an interesting take with music as the art involved.
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                • Posted by EgoPriest 6 years, 2 months ago
                  I am interested in the (very lengthy) novel, but the consequences of "the 'Christophe' premise," as Ayn Rand called it in relation to Nathaniel Branden, "were dreadful."

                  According to James Valliant, in the book I mentioned elsewhere, "A major theme of Jean-Christophe is Rolland's belief in the semi-tragic and 'selfless' perseverance required of an artist, what Rand would call a 'malevolent universe' premise." (Not "Golden Braid" material).

                  Makes me think of Malcolm Arnold Symphonies or Depeche Mode (both of which I love despite their romantic darkness). But these days I'm more drawn to Nino Rota and Duran Duran.

                  After immersing myself in WWII and the Holocaust (reading such books as If this Be Man, The Painted Bird, and Ordinary Men at SDSU (while simultaneously immersed in my post-modern Linguistics major: mind-scrambling Semantics), I completely turned away from Objectivism (and all philosophy) and dived into the stories and novels of Hermann Hesse (which I read in order), then I read Never Let Me Go and was "inexplicably" depressed for over five years (too depressed to function, actually).

                  I began to slowly emerge from that unending malaise when The DIM Hypothesis and How We Know were published, but it took me until I devised my own "gestalt" to recover my senses completely (I write about it in my recent "Golden Braid..." post).

                  I might not rush out right away to re-immerse myself in a "world" that created so much ambiguity in my mind at its most psychologically vulnerable. But I am master of my mind once more and might even read the other book associated with Branden's malaise: Darkness at Noon (which I'd always meant to read).
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                • Posted by EgoPriest 6 years, 2 months ago
                  Thank you for mentioning that book.

                  My personal passion before or even "beyond" Objectivism has always been music: the ultimate mnemonic (especially classical, or what I call philosophically-original, music).

                  Music is the most metaphysical of the arts because it gives form to the axioms themselves, directly without intermediary entities required.

                  When listening to music I think about how it expresses a grasp (or rejection) of existence, consciousness and/or identity.
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                  • Posted by 6 years, 2 months ago
                    I am a former musician and studied musicology in college. Now that I'm very old I am less active, but obviously, music is my passion, but I made my living in Photography. I Spent a year traveling with a big band as a trombonist, but didn't like living out of a suitcase.
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