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Here's How I See the Election

Posted by Tbird7553 8 years ago to Politics
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The election boils down to two areas of voters. The large city populations went to Clinton giving her the popular vote. The rest of the country went to Trump giving him the Electoral vote. This poses many questions in my mind. 1) Why do large city populations vote liberal? 2) Do we really want to eliminate the Electoral College and have mob rule?


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    Posted by robertmbeard 8 years ago
    To answer your question, we should not eliminate the Electoral College. The founding fathers believed strongly in both Federalism (balance of power between the states and the national/federal government) and Democracy. The Presidency was chosen to represent 2 voting constituencies -- 1) the States, and 2) the people. Thus, the Electoral College vote represents the sum of Senators (states' interest) and Congressmen (peoples' interest). Based on the weighting between the 2, the state portion of the electoral vote is only about 19% overall.

    Presidential preference popular voting began in the election of 1824, which due to its newness had the lowest voter turnout of all subsequent elections. Out of the 49 presidential elections with popular voting, the 2016 election had the 19th lowest voter turnout, tying the 2012 election. It was the 11th lowest electoral vote win percentage, nowhere close to being a landslide as Trump spins it. It was a photo-finish, buzzer-beating, razor-thin victory in Florida and 3 rust belt states. The 2016 election was the 7th lowest popular vote win percentage out of the 49 referred to above. It was also the 3rd worst popular vote margin win percentage (-2.1%) and only the 5th time in history that the loser of the popular vote became president.

    Based on an objective analysis of the numbers above, this was not a mandate election. Plus, anecdotal evidence points to the outcome being primarily driven by who voters thought was worse, since they were primarily voting against the other major candidate. Dissatisfaction with the 2 main candidates produced 3 times as many third party votes as usual (almost 5.9% of the total vote). Also, in several battleground states with competitive U.S. Senate races (FL, WI, PA, NH, for example...), the GOP senate candidate earned more votes than Trump. It's practically unheard of that the top of the ticket doesn't earn the most votes compared to down ticket races. So, the Trump team can try to spin the election numbers a number of ways, but this was by no way a primarily satisfied electorate enthusiastically selecting a president with a strong mandate. It was a muddled mess, in a number of ways...
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    • 13
      Posted by freedomforall 8 years ago
      I agree, Trump did not win a mandate. It was a battle of who to vote against. imo, his campaign manager had a better strategy than Hitlery.

      "The founding fathers believed strongly in both Federalism ... and Democracy."
      I agree regarding Federalism and that the electoral college serves a valid purpose that should continue..
      However, to the contrary, many of the founders thought democracy was a terrible form of government. They intended to establish a republican form of government, not a democracy.

      "Democracy is the most vile form of government. ... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property: and have in general been as short in their lives as the have been violent in their deaths."
      - - - James Madison (1751-1836) "Father" of the Constitution, 4th President of the U. S.

      “We are a Republic. Real Liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy.”
      - - - Alexander Hamilton (1755-1804) Lawyer, Secretary of the Treasury & Secretary of State

      “A simple democracy is the devil's own government.”
      - - - This quote is attributed to several American patriots. Most often to Benjamin Rush, or Jedidiah Morse.

      “Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy; such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable [abominable] cruelty of one or a very few.”
      - - - John Adams (1797-1801) Second President of the United States

      “The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.”
      - - - Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of Independence, 3rd President of the U. S.

      “A democracy is a volcano, which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption, and carry desolation in their way.”
      - - - Fisher Ames (1758-1808) Founding Father and framer of the First Amendment to the Constitution

      “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. It is in vain to say that democracy is less vain, less proud, less selfish, less ambitious, or less avaricious than aristocracy or monarchy. It is not true, in fact, and nowhere appears in history. Those passions are the same in all men, under all forms of simple government, and when unchecked, produce the same effects of fraud, violence, and cruelty. When clear prospects are opened before vanity, pride, avarice, or ambition, for their easy gratification, it is hard for the most considerate philosophers and the most conscientious moralists to resist the temptation. Individuals have conquered themselves. Nations and large bodies of men, never.”
      - - - John Adams (1797-1801) Second President of the United States

      “Pure democracy cannot subsist long nor be carried far into the departments of state, it is very subject to caprice and the madness of popular rage.”
      - - - John Witherspoon (1722-1794) Educator, Economist, Minister, Writer & Founding Father

      "The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty."
      - - - Fisher Ames (1758-1808) Founding Father and framer of the First Amendment to the Constitution

      “We have seen the tumults of democracy terminate, in France, as they have everywhere terminated, in despotism.”
      - - - Gouverneur Morris (1752-1816) Statesman, Diplomat, writer of the final draft of the Constitution

      "In democracy … there are commonly tumults and disorders … Therefore a pure democracy is generally a very bad government. It is often the most tyrannical government on earth.”
      - - - Noah Webster (1758-1843)

      “All such men are, or ought to be, agreed, that simple governments are despotisms; and of all despotisms, a democracy, though the least durable, is the most violent.”
      - - - Fisher Ames (1758-1808)

      “Republicanism is not the phantom of a deluded imagination. On the contrary, laws, under no form of government, are better supported, liberty and property better secured, or happiness more effectually dispensed to mankind.”
      - - - George Washington (1732-1799)

      "There is no good government but what is republican. That the only valuable part of the British constitution is so; for the true idea of a republic is 'an empire of laws, and not of men.' That, as a republic is the best of governments, so that particular arrangement of the powers of society, or in other words, that form of government which is best contrived to secure an impartial and exact execution of the law, is the best of republics."
      - - - John Adams (1797-1801) Second President of the United States

      “A pure Democracy, by which I mean a Society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the Government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of Government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party, or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is, that such Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of Government, have erroneously supposed, that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions.”
      - - - James Madison, Federalist No. 10

      The quotes above were researched by a friend and if desired I can provide links to sources.
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      • Posted by robertmbeard 8 years ago
        Good catch on the democracy reference. I agree with your and the founders' statements of concern about raw "mob rule" democracy. I occasionally, but not usually, slip up and say democracy when I'm thinking "representative government." I'll try not to do that.

        Our national government is a Constitutional Republic. The two main principles of republicanism, which feature prominently in our form of government are: (1) opposition to kings, dictators, and other forms of authoritarianism, and (2) rule of Law, properly constrained by a constitution which limits government power. The Republican Party, founded in 1854, claims to stand for the principles of republicanism. However, in my mind, the first principle seems to not be as rigorously followed now, with many in the GOP increasingly accepting of strong-arm, bullying tactics from the president. That concerns me greatly...
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      • Posted by Animal 8 years ago
        "I agree, Trump did not win a mandate."

        He has the only mandate that matters, and the only one he needs; he won the election.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
          That is not what a "mandate" means. The distinction is between winning by a narrow margin versus a wide margin, not winning versus losing.
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          • Posted by Animal 8 years ago
            Please explain what additional powers a President gains by winning by a wide, rather than a narrow, margin.
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
              There are no additional "powers". "Mandate" means broader popular support, which makes it easier politically for a president to pursue his agenda. Winning the election by itself is not what is meant by a "mandate".

              Undermining any possible mandate is the political goal of the current agitation of the progressives, who are trying to de-legitimize the election in the eyes of the public. If they can't overturn the election with phony accusations and appeals to the electoral college to vote for Clinton, they want to make it look like Trump has no popular support. They want to embolden more opposition in order to undermine the Trump appointments and legislative agenda in Congress.

              On the other side, Trump is trying to manufacture the impression of a mandate he does not have in what was a very close election.
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            • Posted by 8 years ago
              No actual powers really, just an understanding that a large majority liked his promises and hope that he'll keep them. Also, Congress would be expected to accept that a large majority wants him to succeed in implementing his promises and should work with him or face the wrath of their constituents that supported him. And the media should understand that they risk alienating his constituency if they continually attack him and his attempts to implement his promised policies. But I agree, Trump has no mandate.
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              • Posted by ewv 8 years ago
                Trump lost the popular vote significantly. A majority, let alone a large majority, did not vote for him at all, and fewer liked his promises -- whatever they were in the stream of contradictions. Some who voted for him opposed Clinton. Both of them had record high negative ratings in the polls.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 8 years ago
        freedomforall, thank you for taking the time to put up this informative post. I've seen some of these quotes from time to time, but not all and certainly not all at once and not always with attribution. Much appreciated!
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    • Posted by Sully2161 8 years ago
      You are absolutely right. All this caterwauling by the Clinton campaign about winning the popular vote ignores the fact that many were votes against Trump, not for her. I'd be embarrassed.

      Regarding the EC, it should definitely not be eliminated. Like most other things it was carefully thought out by the Founders and is there for a good reason. We have to keep in mind that they were dealing with a less stable and established framework and these decisions were intended to not only build a solid foundation for themselves but one that would last through centuries of potential, well, "calamity" if I have to choose a word for what's going on now.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years ago
    It's the City itself that makes people liberal, dependent, socialist, disempowered and therefore demoncrapic.

    Seriously...think about it. How much sovereignty does one have in a city, how much can you rely upon yourself besides working, feeding yourself and paying your rent. Other than those things, you have no responsibility, your not allowed to fix anything when it breaks, you rely on the land lord, you have to rely on the government for all basic needs...your a hostage at the mercy of your captor...The city and it's government is your keeper.

    The days when the city behind the castle walls was your protection from the world are looooong gone...we should abandon them. The city is now your foe. They should become only a place to visit but not a place to live.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years ago
      I think you have hit the nail on the head. Dependency is the hallmark of a democratic voter
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years ago
        Same ole be ruled by a king or rule yourself...in Israel and in America we were taught that we could rule ourselves...but the demoncrapic voters ruined it for the rest of us. Now we are ruled by creatures that can't even rule themselves.

        Still scratchin my head over that one...
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years ago
    People need to be continuously reminded. We do not have a democracy we have a constitutional republic (as long as we can keep it). A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Our Constitution and mechanisms like the electoral college guard against the tyranny of the majority.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years ago
    First, they who live in large cities are used to having others do things for them that rural folk know they must do themselves. It gets them used to dependency. They call it inter-dependency, but interdependency is still dependency. And leftism is the political philosophy of dependency.

    Second, of course we want the Electoral College. In fact, I want to see each State adopt a Gubernatorial Electoral College. Furthermore, I would like to see either (a) the same or similar state-wide Electoral College appoint Presidential Electors, or (b) have States choose two Electors at-large and let each Congressional district choose one Elector each. That's how they do it in Maine--and Maine, significantly, will field a split Electoral College delegation this year.
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    • Posted by JuliBMe 8 years ago
      Yes, wouldn't it be nice if California had a Gubernatorial Electoral College? Wow, California would go back to being the beautiful, innovative, and freedom-loving state it used to be!
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years ago
        For the last several elections, I have seen county maps that show Republicans carry the bulk of the counties.

        I'd love to see a rule that said: "Each county shall appoint, in such manner as the freeholders thereof may direct/Each independent city shall appoint, in such manner as the council thereof may direct, a number of Electors..."
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        • Posted by JuliBMe 8 years ago
          I agree. It would be to the benefit of the state and its people to do something like that. Especially since the rank and file liberal ALWAYS votes against their self-interest.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 8 years ago
            Their long-term self-interest, yes. In that it is never in their interest to stay dependent upon anyone. But they don't know that, do they?
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            • Posted by JuliBMe 8 years ago
              Nope, they apparently do not. This is where the California Gubernatorial Electoral College would help by allowing people who actually know something about the evils of dependency might get into political offices and be able to do something about the abysmal public education in this state.
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              • Posted by Temlakos 8 years ago
                True enough. Though the only remedy I see for "public education" is to abolish it. Abolish it, repeal the school taxes, and watch as a new variety of private school, one not meant to be "exclusive," fills the void.
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                • Posted by JuliBMe 8 years ago
                  Actually, eventually, I think the internet is going to do a lot of that in the way of education. But, yes, abolishing MANY societal functions taken over by bureaucrats is a worthy goal as is teaching people how taxation is actually THEFT. The money we are forced to give NEVER goes for the benefit of children even though they ALWAYS advertise that this brand-new tax you must vote for is "for the children!". LOL
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years ago
    Large city populations have no choice but to rely heavily on government services, so the idea of government control seems normal to them. Progressives, who are of a totalitarian mind, take advantage of that ingrained feeling of a heavy government presence as "normal," and wage a propaganda war. The Democrat message is that the Republicans are the enemy that is going to take away all of those vital services, creating an atmosphere of terror and panic. That's why you're seeing so many liberal meltdowns, because they genuinely fear for their lives, due to the exaggerated sense of danger they've been fed.

    Big city dwellers are in a sense slaves, however independent they may think they are. Large segments of their community feel compelled not only to act a certain accepted way, but to think in a way that doesn't get a hostile response from others around them. A conservative thinker in a liberal community receives a very hostile response from those in their vicinity, because the conservative is viewed as a threatening presence.

    Small communities experience less government presence, primarily because government services are more limited. The feeling of dire distress from others that have different views is less as well, because even liberals in this setting are more independent, without the rat warren claustrophobic setting of the big city.

    The lesson I get from this is that rather than force more people into the rat warrens in the name of efficiency (Agenda 21), we should work to better distribute the American population. Reliance on telecommuting for non-physical labor, distributed transportation, power, and entertainment conserves wealth and energy, as well as reducing stress on the population.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years ago
    Without the Electoral College, we would become The United States of New California. Ruled by 6 or 7 highly populated coastal states. Fly over country would be totally disenfranchised. I'm really tired of hearing about the popular vote VS the College. There is no such thing as a perfect system, but ours is the best so far.
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  • Posted by gearmike 8 years ago
    The Michigan recount gives great insight in Detroit 37% of precincts had vote fraud one box listed 306 ballots when actually counted only 50. With that much fraud did she win popular vote or just better with cheaters
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  • Posted by Dobrien 8 years ago
    USA # of counties 3084 Trump won 2627 Clinton won 487 . The counties won by Clinton were Urban .. Trump won the rest.
    Popular vote was close but Clinton won.
    The electoral college was won by Trump.
    That is the rules ( the most electoral votes )and I was taught that in grade school.
    How about a smooth transition of power and vote him out the next time, if you can get a candidate that gets the most electoral votes...period.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years ago
    The following are generalizations and exceptions exist to some degree.
    People in large cities are not independent to the extent that those outside are independent. People in large cities are more specialized in their working activity and do not have the knowledge of or experience in activities required for survival compared to people living outside large cities.
    The young, ignorant, and inexperienced are moving in large numbers to large cities and lowering the average wisdom per capita. By the time they gain wisdom, the city will no longer attract them and they will take their wisdom to smaller towns as did the generations before them. They may have had more education, but that does not in any way equate to wisdom.
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  • Posted by mccannon01 8 years ago
    Tbird7553, you left out question 3. I'll lead into it by suggesting you look at a red/blue county map of NY. Now the question: If the hard working conservative Trump supporting farmers, who are often held in contempt by the city liberals, decided to stop feeding the city elite Clinton supporters by going Galt, would the city elites change their tune?
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years ago
    Hillary basically won California and thus the popular vote. Do we want Calif., land of the screwy nuts, to call all the shots, just because the are populated by people who are on the dole? Better to keep the Electoral College and let the working men and women in the other states have a say. As to the large city question, the poor and those looking for assistance always have flocked to big cities, looking for that rainbow, they stay, they get on welfare, and they vote. Also, rich live in those big cities, they feel guilt for their excess money and multiple homes, so they vote liberal.
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  • Posted by nelleski 8 years ago
    Don't forget the military vote and the absentee ballots have not been counted. Could there be 2 million Trump votes hidden in the stacks? The cities vote democrat because that's the party of entitlements. It's where non-working residents (legal and otherwise) congregate for their support.
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    • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years ago
      None of the military and absentee ballots have been counted? Then how were states, especially close ones such as Michigan and New Hampshire, able to certify their election results?
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  • Posted by dwlievert 8 years ago
    In the 16th century, Francis Bacon coined the fundamental axiom with which human beings must deal. His "nature to be commanded must be obeyed" says all one needs to know when dealing with the "non-human" universe.

    However, it says nothing about a human beings dealings with each other. To the extent human beings become "removed" or isolated from nature, they are able to do so only to the extent they are dealing with other human beings. This can, to the extent one has no rational philosophy of life consistent with Bacon's axiom - one that applies to human beings, allow for the development of a destructive psycho-epistemological pathology.

    I propose a corollary to Bacon's axiom - one that applies when dealing with human beings.

    "A man's life, in order to exist in harmony with the lives of others, must be his own."

    To the extent a human being no longer must deal exclusively with nature for his survival, recognition and acting in accord with said axiom, must be philosophically understood, and politically instituted.

    Absent such a reality, those who deal almost exclusively with others, either in large cities or in pockets of wealth that "insulate" them from nature, they can come to believe almost any absurdity however disguised.

    There is little "nature" to thwart, frustrate, or ultimately, punish them with death for failure to "obey."
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  • Posted by GaryL 8 years ago
    Large city populations contain a large population of those living on the government teats. They will always vote for the free stuff and are what I call the FSA Free Stuff Army. Out here in rural America is where those who actually carry their own weight live. You can also use a magnifying glass and see that small towns and villages that have government resource offices also lean toward the democrats. In my county here in NY we went strong for Trump but in the nearest town it was just the opposite with lots of section 8 housing, low end apartment complexes and the county welfare office.
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    • Posted by 8 years ago
      College towns of moderate size may also vote Democrat. In Michigan, the county I formerly lived in, Kalamazoo county, is a college town and one of the few counties in west Michigan that went blue.
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  • Posted by wmiranda 8 years ago
    Every election year we ask the same question, with the same answers, and same conclusion: Electoral college balances mob rule. No we should not abolish it. This year, we have celebrities and pouting politicians asking electorates to join the mob rule. What we need to get rid of is the insidious Political Royalty that has developed in America. We need to return to a government by the people and for the people.
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  • Posted by mminnick 8 years ago
    My assessment of why Large cities have large Dem/Liberal/Progressive voting blocks is they , these voters, have received the most for the government by way of welfare and uother subsidies and are very afraid that if they vote for the "Opposition Party" they will loose these subsidies.
    They little realizes that they are well on the road to becomingso conditioned to respond to the Progressive bell that they have little volition of their own to vote otherwise.
    The other states, having less of the urban influx do not have the issues the large cities have and do not have the subsidies the large cities have. Look a a map colored by party winning each county. The map looks very different on a county by county basis. The urban counties are typically "Blue" and the others typically "Red" A map at this level shows the density of the progressive wing of the Dems in it's tru location the Large Cities. and almost no where else.
    As for the argument for the Electoral College, it was made very eloquently by the founding fathers so as to limit the power of the large staes vs the small states, just as the creat compromise (The House being numbered by population and the senate being set to 2 members per state. Great foresight shown by the founders.
    +1: it was marked down while I was entering my comment.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years ago
    The reason voters vote liberal or conservative is a moot point. Neither party represents a fundamental commitment to individual rights.

    As for the electoral college, most other countries function without it. How? The important component of other nations' system of counting votes includes the concept of proportional representation. The parliamentary system is capable of representing a diversity of views by virtue of the fact that parties are rewarded seats in the legislature in proportion to the percentage of the popular vote which that party receives.

    In the United States, we have a winner-takes-all system of representation. Thus, "third party" candidates are far and few between. This can be an advantage or disadvantage. The advantage is that no radical third party is supposed to be able to take control of the political system. Of course, that makes sense only when your party is in power. The disadvantage is that diversity of views are not possible. The parties tend to oppose each other in fundamentals but compromise on solutions. Thus, little "gets done" and a bull in the China shop gets elected by a more or less cynical populace.

    If the Electoral College only protects the nation when the party you voted for succeeds in getting elected, then you believe more in your party and less in the Constitution. Whether this fact is good or bad, I leave to comment.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years ago
    The Electoral College does not favor rural regions by its nature. The Electoral College favors the candidate who wins states by a narrow margin, which may or may not be the urban candidate. In the last election it benefitted the candidate with more rural support, but it could easily benefit the urban candidate next time.
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