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Going Really Far Out Galt

Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago to Science
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I'm throwing this proposal to create the first human nation based entirely in space as one idea to create a gulch off planet. This may be the only real way to achieve unfettered independence.
SOURCE URL: http://newatlas.com/asgardia-space-nation/45888/


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  • Posted by mminnick 8 years, 2 months ago
    Sounds like a really good idea. Babylon 5 type station.
    I foresee several non-technical problems:
    1. Where do you launch from?
    2. Who sells you the supplies?
    3. Will the nations of Earth allow over flight of there sovereign states?
    4. How do you defend yourself?
    5. Where do you return to?
    I'm not trying to down play the idea but as indicated I see several problems. That said, sign me up. I'll bring the entire family.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago
      All good questions, and I think the answers might be:
      1. Any commercial spaceport; so long as no hostile intent is indicated, no one is likely to reject a launch
      2. Money is money. So long as no weaponry is involved, you'll have a lot of suppliers
      3. Only a few have attempted to claim sovereignty into space, and anyone with the capability to put things up there has pretty much ignored them
      4. As long as no hostile purpose is apparent, and no complaint given for requested observation, I doubt there'll be any need for defense
      5. I would imagine the visa process would work just like for any foreign resident

      I would also suspect there would be the opportunity to become the ultimate "offshore" banking resource. Inviting nations currently without spacefaring ability the opportunity to contract for research will be an obvious revenue source.
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      • Posted by libertylad 8 years, 2 months ago
        DrZ, the US government villified a bunch of innocent people and burned them alive just to get a bigger budget for the ATF. Covering up an attack in space would be much easier.
        Definitely need a defense in place, and a live feed to lots of tv networks on earth. The enemy of my enemy ...
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 2 months ago
        I must remind you, Dr. Zarkov, that ill-natured people can always find an excuse. Therefore a defense would be necessary. But I have the obvious defense to suggest: nickel-iron payloads, harvested from among the meteoroids. In other words, smart meteors. A strike by a heavy-enough payload would devastate its target. And it wouldn't even need any nuclear or even chemical explosive, "high" or "low."

        Actually, I must correct myself. I didn't suggest this. Robert A. Heinlein did, in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
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        • Posted by libertylad 8 years, 2 months ago
          Great book. Probably in the top 5 for liberty minded people. It would be mandatory reading if I had a home school.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 2 months ago
            Agreed. Of course, it promoted "rational anarchy," that is, anarchy without the chaos Rand feared would always attend anarchy. It also lamented you'd probably never get there, because when people seize power, they tend not to destroy it but to get hooked on it. In the end, the lead character is talking about making a new life for himself among the asteroids, hoping to achieve there what he feels he missed on the Moon with its revolution.

            But along the way, it covered all the bases. Self-sufficiency and self-sustenance, for one thing.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago
          Solar powered EMP cannon could fry the electronics of any vehicle on approach, and possibly detonate any warhead onboard. When you start flinging stuff Earthward, it helps to do it from a long way off, like the Moon, or you're asking for real trouble. The EMP cannon would obviously not have the range to do damage to anything on or near the surface, and can be justified as strictly defensive.
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    • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 2 months ago
      Heinlein addressed many of these issues in his novel "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls". There is a large space colony at a La-Grange point that is owned and operated by a consortium of private enterprise companies. The government of the station has a distinctly objectivist flavor. It is not exact and I don't know what Rand would think of the story but it is an interesting comparison. Check out http://stuffpoint.com/space/image/201...
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
      You would have to be totally independent in terms of supplies, launching facilities, and far enough away that the incentive to attack it would be minimal.
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  • Posted by cjferraris 8 years, 2 months ago
    The biggest problem I see it is that after a few generations, there would be dissidents that would arise out of the descendants of the objectivists that started the movement. I see within 2 full new generations, 30% of the population becoming like James Taggart and the next generation would cause the percentage to rise even further. You would have the "altruistic philanthropists" who think that all of the wealth that their family has made should go to "help" the "new found" underclass that has also been created. So what I'm basically saying, is Atlas Shrugged would recreate itself in that place in 100 or so years...
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    • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago
      All the dissidents need to do is establish their own colony elsewhere. I suspect that things will be quite tribal and diverse in the community of colonies in the system. Star Trek style Federation under a unified, uniform, universal government is extremely unlikely.

      I'm in the process of writing my first novel I've tentatively titled "Kaleidoscope" that takes place in the wildly heterogeneous collection of solar system colonies. Hopefully I can actually get the novel published in the next year, so I can see what the response is to a future very different from conventional futurist thinking.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 2 months ago
        Recently I wrote six essays saying what was wrong with Star Trek. First and foremost was their promotion of pure communism--for that's what their New Economy amounted to. Second was their Articles of Federation, which the producers literally cribbed, word-for-word, from the UN Charter. If you doubt that, go find a 1977 Star Fleet Technical Manual in your local library. Read the Articles of Federation. Change "Intelligent life-form" to "human" and "Federation Council" to "Security Council," and substitute USA, Britain, France, Russia, and China for Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri, and you have your UN Charter.

        Worse yet, in Deep Space Nine they used a lot of Hinduism, in their tales of the Prophets on the one hand, and the "Domineering" Great Link on the other. For what does it mean to join the Great Link of Changelings, except to achieve the Hindu Nirvana, which means dissolution of individual identity and the joining of the ultimate collective?

        I had in mind a seven-year cycle that would tell what would happen to the Federation moving forward. Having fought the costliest war in its history, it would pass Townshend-like Acts on its new colonies in Gamma Quadrant. Those colonies would then re-fight the American War for Independence. Then I decided to take it further: with a full-blown mutiny within Star Fleet that ended with the overthrow of the original United Nations and the capture of the one person, or rather the succession of clones, responsible for all the bitter warfare the Federation had with Klingons, Romulans, and even the Dominion. I would end it with this "person" standing trial before a judge and jury brought in from the Delta Quadrant--and then the dissolution of the Federation and the reorganization of Star Fleet as an independent, non-governing fleet of interstellar rangers, tasking themselves to keep the peace (for an annual premium, like insurance), recruiting all comers regardless of race or planetary origin, and looking for new worlds, not to conquer, but to trade with.

        Of course I know the rights holders of Star Trek will never agree to it. So now I'm trying to figure out how to change some race and character names and play it out independently of the Star Trek franchise. That would also let me fix some serious reality problems.
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    • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 2 months ago
      I can see some "dissidents" arising, but not 30% or higher. There probably are not that many in the U.S. now. If were that easy for a society to slide into collectivism, the whole world would have arrived there long ago and stayed there.
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      • Posted by cjferraris 8 years, 2 months ago
        I think the reason is that until a few years ago, we didn't have the connectivity that we do now. Had we had the phone/camera and internet back in the 60s, this world would be even more liberal than it is now. That's why we have the problems that we have now because they like to use two weapons: shaming and "social justice".
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 2 months ago
    I like the idea of space colonization, but remember Akin's Law #41:

    41. Space is a completely unforgiving environment. If you screw up the engineering, somebody dies (and there's no partial credit because most of the analysis was right...)

    http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_l...
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    • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago
      Humans venture into lots of unforgiving environments on a routine basis. High latitude towns, like many in Alaska, Canada, Russia, and Scandinavian countries see wind and temperature conditions that can freeze human tissue solid in seconds if inadequately protected. There are other examples, but the point is that careful preparation and thoughtful engineering are mandatory for any venture.

      I agree that getting a significant population off-planet will be a challenge (as nearly all pioneering ventures are). That doesn't mean we should be so hesitant as to put up barricades to the ventures.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
        Better to live right here- free and in plain sight- staying below the radar of the statists What they dont know about, they have a hard time taking.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 2 months ago
        You nicely explained why I live in Florida instead of Alaska, Canada, Russia, or Scandinavia.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 2 months ago
          Just let me know when you want to buy land to get out of the congestion and I'll be a good neighbor in the sunshine boonies, jb.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 2 months ago
            I didn't think that it was congested where I live, freedomforall. I live right near an uncongested I-95.
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            • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 2 months ago
              Under "normal" circumstances its not very congested as normally defined, and a lovely neighborhood. In abnormal (e.g., emergency) circumstances would you want to be stuck there with empty grocery stores, jammed and dangerous expressways, failing city services (water/electric/gas), unresponsive police, angry/hungry/envious looters ?
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 1 month ago
                Our area knows how to handle emergency situations quite well. For example, we had power restored in only 12 hours after Hurricane Matthew. East Central Florida will be one of the last bastions worth living in, even during times that are right out of Atlas Shrugged.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 2 months ago
    The idea will likely be practical in 20 or 30 years. With continued advances in technology, it might be possible for such a space nation to be self-sustaining.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 2 months ago
      Self-sustaining, how? I can speculate, of course: by building, owning, and running a network of solar power satellites and beaming this energy to a power-hungry Earth. This, then, would be its export-in-chief. And perhaps also by running scientific expeditions to the Moon, Venus, Mars, and Europa, and maybe by harvesting deuterium from the asteroids (and any stray comets), and tri-alphium (helium-3) from the surface of the Moon. Now that's my speculation. What's yours?
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      • Posted by 8 years, 2 months ago
        With enough solar power, growing edible vegetation should be possible. To tap into bleeding edge technology, laboratory grown meats could solve the protein requirement. Water and raw material supply is the challenge, as shipping costs to LEO will be expensive. Eventually, as stations on the Moon and asteroids become productive, supply will become more affordable.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 1 month ago
    I can't believe it Doc...I just posted the same article...dang...ya beat me to it, serves me right for not being engaged lately...

    I asked these Questions: why Ask the UN for permission?
    What Are the rules and Regulations.
    And last but not least...why would anyone want to join the UN
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    • Posted by 8 years, 1 month ago
      Humanity continues to hopelessly chase Utopia, where all is sweetness and light, nobody ever disagrees with anybody else, and everyone has all they want. That delusion birthed the League of Nations, which failed miserably in preventing another conflict like the Great War. The League's cousin, the United Nations, oversees a world in conflict on every continent, but many are resistant to reality.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 1 month ago
        Both the UN and the League were simply naive attempts to nail down forever the result of the world wars that preceded each one's formation, and prevent it ever changing. So was the Congress of Vienna after Waterloo. I see no reason to believe that any such attempt either can or ought to succeed. Backing one only shows naivete.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 2 months ago
    I don't think I want to go, not being that adven-
    turous.--But they want to be in the UN?! Yuckh!!
    Well, the Pilgrims in Massachusetts left European
    tyranny, and look what happened in Salem in the
    late 1600's.--For now, include me out.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 2 months ago
    While there is no guarantee that Asgardia won't devolve into the morass we find ourselves in, it would be an opportunity to start from scratch in a really big way. So long as we're being imaginative, there is the possibility of an earthlike planet if we overcome the speed of light limitation. While we SF nerds see this as a viable future, there will be skeptics. But then, who knows in what direction science will evolve? Where we are today, the communication/information era was a totally unexpected future that went into the current direction of a hand held device that is a computer more powerful than those that took up an entire floor of an office building in the 50's and also contained a phone and a camera and the ability to grow by down loading from a world wide internet. So, the world as predicted of interplanetary exploration, flying cars, and teleportation is way behind current innovations.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 2 months ago
    I signed up at the website. It would be great if this could get off the ground (literally). It looks like there are many logistical and financial problems to be solved for a project like this. Also, you would need a neutral corporation with launch capability. If Jeff Bezos of Amazon gets get his space delivery systems into consistent commercial use would be the best arrangement. One of the major technical problem would be is creating a magnetic field around the station to deflect cosmic rays. I'm assuming that the station will be at a Lagrange Point as mentioned in the comments. A cylindrical structure with a monopole at each end and with enough electrical power could create would create a large magnetic field. As with a B-5 station the central tube would have to be rotated to simulate gravity. The tube itself would have solar panels mounted on the entire surface or have an internal chemical power plant (APU). Rotating contact surface for an external frame for solar panels would need a lot of maintenance like a B5 structure. Micro-meteorite protection in the way of a self sealing material to surround the station would be needed.These are the most pressing requirements for a habitable station.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 2 months ago
    Seems like these people found a fat donor. Total disconnect with reality, but kept the "feel good" parts, like the UN, over and above human squabbles, etc. Actually, pretty easy to do, as long as the money keeps rolling in...
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 2 months ago
    Lay aside for a moment the obvious reference to Asgard, home of the AEsir of Norse mythology. The ideals of this project resemble those of a made-for-TV movie many of you might have seen in the early Seventies, called Earth II. In that movie, the United States launched "Earth II" as a series of orbital lifts. And with the very first of those lifts, the President held an instant referendum: leave your lights on at night, and that will count as a vote for granting the new space colony independence. By a "light-on vote" estimated at 71% to 29%, the referendum carried.

    Someone here did mention Babylon 5. If I recall correctly (and I've seen nothing but the program synopses), Babylon 5 did organize itself as an independent state. Its then commander decided he could never accomplish his diplomatic mission by doing anything less.

    I have just one question: how much does anyone project the fare will be, whether they call this orbiting nation-station Asgard(ia), Atlantis, or Olympia? That is, for what price does anyone propose to sell a berth aboard this station, or to transport a family and their possessions in a single launch to orbit?
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 2 months ago
    This fellow must be living in Colorado or Washington or Oregon because he must be ingestion mind altering substances where it is legal. Or he is just not playing with a full deck.
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