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Altruism

Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 4 months ago to Philosophy
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Some people have problems understand what altruism. Here is what the Comte who created altruism has to say. (From Wikipedia)

The word "altruism" (French, altruisme, from autrui: "other people", derived from Latin alter: "other") was coined by Auguste Comte, the French founder of positivism, in order to describe the ethical doctrine he supported. He believed that individuals had a moral obligation to renounce self-interest and live for others. Comte says, in his Catéchisme Positiviste,[2] that:
[The] social point of view cannot tolerate the notion of rights, for such notion rests on individualism. We are born under a load of obligations of every kind, to our predecessors, to our successors, to our contemporaries. After our birth these obligations increase or accumulate, for it is some time before we can return any service.... This ["to live for others"], the definitive formula of human morality, gives a direct sanction exclusively to our instincts of benevolence, the common source of happiness and duty. [Man must serve] Humanity, whose we are entirely."


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  • Posted by coaldigger 8 years, 4 months ago
    I consider altruism illogical, unnatural and not rational. I don't understand where it springs from except from religion. Everyone is afraid of death and they are willing to conger up any kind of myth to grant themselves life after death is my guess. Simple, rational, long-term self interest gives us all the morality we need but lacks eternity.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
      Statists want control over everything, and they want others to basically guarantee that and run things for them. To do that, people have to be converted into sheep, so that they "want" to feed the system that the statists control. THAT is the basis of altruism. Its really pure evil.

      Its like convincing the jews that they have a duty to walk into the gas chambers willingly. Only the real socialists of today want you to work FOR them, not die off.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 4 months ago
    Even some commenting on this Post don't seem to understand and attempt as Comte did to 'rationalize' as justification for their feelings. I find the concept to be an example of a belief system instilled, beginning before even long term memory fully develops, that continues throughout life to result in emotional vs reason conflict. This battle of 'what feels right' vs what facts and reason provides can destroy a mind and will destroy a civilization and man's progress.

    It's nonsensical thinking and living.
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  • Posted by DavidKelley 8 years, 4 months ago
    Here's another passage from Comte:
    "[The religion of Humanity] sets forth social feeling as the first principle of morality....To live for others it holds to be our highest happiness. To become incorporate with humanity..., this is what it puts before us as the constant aim of life. ...In the positive state..., the idea of Right will disappear. Everyone has duties, duties toward all, but Rights in the ordinary sense can be claimed by none." [Auguste Compte, A General View of Positivism]
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      Thanks David.

      The quote is from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruis... and according to this article the quote was from Comte, August. Catéchisme positiviste (1852) or Catechism of Positivism, trans. R. Congreve, (London: Kegan Paul, 1891)


      I do not think most people understand that Altruism means that you do not have any Rights
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      • Posted by DavidKelley 8 years, 4 months ago
        Thanks, Dale. I've had that Comte passage in my notes for decades; I can't remember the source.
        You're right that most people do not understand what altruism actually means. In my experience, it's usually because they don't clearly differentiate altruism from benevolence.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 4 months ago
          Some seem to connect altruism to being morality. The Brights who work for acceptance of a non-supernatural views in society but seem to have many wrong ideas. They have some experts who seem to believe that morality is built into humans and other animals because it can be shown that some act as though they are altruistic at times and that to the experts is a basis for morality. Their other experts on the nature of science appear to be wrong in saying that science is whatever scientists say it is and seem to go along with the Epistemological anarchism of Paul Karl Feyerabend.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 4 months ago
    Having watched several hours of the Republican convention, I was surprised at how pervasive the ethics of altruism had become. I certainly knew altruism was present, but the pervasiveness of it was more stunning even than the number of religious references.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 4 months ago
      Was that any worse than the debates between McCain and Obama, one of which was a change in format to an informal friendly sit-down discussion on service? They fell all over themselves outdoing each other with claims of altruistic service.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 4 months ago
        Yes, they did fall over themselves outdoing each other with claims of altruistic service.

        It probably wasn't as bad as the debates between McCain and Obama, but I didn't watch those because I knew going in that I detested them both. Trump does have some qualities that I admire. He has raised children that value production and have accomplishments in their own rights. Moreover, Trump has many major business accomplishments. He is a misguided producer. Although I am misguided about other things, I am also a misguided producer.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 4 months ago
    Ugh.
    Altruism is a really good thing -- for everybody who proposes it, but doesn't abide by it. Those who do abide by it sentence themselves to a life of privation and automatically become a servant class. So, if all you want is to become a junior Mother Theresa, have at it.
    A rational person takes care of himself first, those he loves second, and if anything is left over, charity.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 4 months ago
    What boils my butt is that this "Altruism" crap is associated with the teachings of Jesus...note: I am a fan of his achievement of the fullest expression of Consciousness...but I am not a fan of the "Organization" of those teachings. The Organization has held back mankind's ascension into higher levels of conscious thought, behavior and world views.
    The Idea was to take care of one's self (love thy self) , care for your family, have mutuality with your neighbors and community (mutuality is love outside the family unit). He advocated "rational self interest" in helping others fallen beside the road...for you might find one's self fallen beside the road one day. This is not a sacrifice and does Not deny self. (again, I speak of common courtesy...not of organized religious confoundations).
    To deny self is to deny life itself...no one but liberal progressive non value creators would advocate such a thing but for their own self interest.
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    • Posted by Joy1inchrist 8 years, 4 months ago
      Carl, yep ... and Jesus didn't use this concept is a power ploy which many of the "Organizations" do. And like you, I'm a fan ... as were/are others who followed/follow his simple, "Love your neighbor as yourself".
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 4 months ago
      He did not advocate rational self interest. He promoted sacrifice to God in another world, with sacrifice to others in this one a distant second as a means to the first. The closest it came to selfishness at all is that the sacrifices on earth were supposed to end up saving your own mystic soul.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 4 months ago
        He was against "sacrifice to the Gods" that was his argument with his fellow Jews...If you look at Just what he said...you'd see that he was trying to prepare his apprentices and others for their evolving conscious mind...something mankind obviously didn't have up until that time.
        Look, we're not into the mystical organization nor are we entirely on board with his apprentices interpretation...they still spoke the bicameral language. To get a frame of reference here see: Julian Jaynes.

        We all know here that "Altruism" is the most destructive concept mankind has had to endure and was invented by a sick bicameral brain and used against our natural creation of values so that our rulers could survive on our backs. If there was Anyone that understood that during those times, it was Jesus, Aristotle and a few others.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 4 months ago
          Jesus was an anti-intellectual mystic who promoted sacrifice to another world and sacrifice to others in this one to get to the other one, not an Aristotelian. Religious demands for sacrifice lacked the later extreme of altruism only in appealing for one's own mystic soul. The claim that Jesus understood and opposed the destructiveness of altruism is preposterous.
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          • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 4 months ago
            Altruism was adopted by Roman catholic's (Socrates), what Jesus was talking about was actually a principle...stand with moral principles even if it means death, our forefathers felt the same way...today, being an ole fart...I finally see the value with standing on principle otherwise I am nothing, just a brain in a body. And...maybe, just maybe, there are quantum consequences to our actions...who knows.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 4 months ago
    Thanks for posting this, DB. Most people mistake altruism for benevolence, goodwill, kindness, consideration, fellow feeling, charity, friendliness, caring about others, helpfulness. All these emotions are to invoke good actions, the golden rule of treating others as you want to be treated, of loving one's neighbor as oneself (not more than oneself!).

    On the continuum of human relations, the end points are total disregard of others (psychopathy, sacrificing others to one's own benefit) and total self-sacrifice for the benefit of others--sadists and masochists. Where an individual ends up on that scale depends on the ideas and values of one's culture, inculcated by parents, teachers, rulers. Those who rebel against self-immolation become freedom fighters or tyrants. Making people glad to suffer is the height of perversion.

    In a rational society every individual must still practice self-restraint so as not to transgress against the rights of others. The social contract implies non-aggression, an agreement to a mutual pact of respecting that others have equal rights, and that relationships among individuals are by mutual consent. It is a very fine dividing line between agreeing to an agreement and viewing the need to agree as an obligation. Galt’s Oath is that balancing point.

    Comte’s definition of altruism reveals altruism to be a total evil, a vicious reduction of individuals to means to others’ ends. It is also a logical absurdity, for if some sacrifice themselves to others, how do those others reciprocate in kind? The notion of sacrifice is indeed rooted in the religious dictum that pleasure is sinful, that only suffering gets you moral brownie points.

    There is a legimate principle of self-denial or delayed gratification which is the equivalent of investing a temporary delayed gratification for a greater future benefit. These acts are, however, again voluntary, not socially mandated (unlike taxes).

    Relationships between individuals built upon such mutual investments of respect, affection and love help to establish stable, prosperous, happy communities as well, where the self-interest of each individual is served through voluntary cooperation and collaboration.

    Such rational systems depend on a level of intellectual enlightenment that can overcome the left-overs of humans’ animal past of hunter/predator that evolution built in for survival in a raw environment. Those instincts are still rampant in many people’s psyches, along with the survival tools of deception, deceit, distortion in whose service our wonderful skills of inventiveness and rationalization still operate.

    Ayn Rand’s highly evolved consciousness assumed that everyone had her capacity for pure rationality and volition in understanding reality and recognizing that emotions are not primaries, only responses to an internalized value system, and that rational values best served one’s highest self-interest. She gave us a blueprint for a successful and sustainable human civilization. It may take a few more centuries for the world at large to embrace it. We in the forefront of that evolution have our work cut out for us in not compromising with evil. We can, by example, re-engineer the memes dominant in today’s culture, not in an altruistic concern but for the most selfish motives of our own and our descendants’ happiness.

    As long as humans live in society, organized in multiple levels of hierarchy from the individual to the nation state and the global network of interrelationships, voluntary exchange and non-aggression is the principle that brings about a peaceful, prosperous, creative and dynamic civilization. Living “for” others has no place in living “with” others.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
      Comte was trying to create and ethics of religion without a deity.
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      • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 4 months ago
        And Rand created an ethics for man without religion and without deities.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
          Ayn Rand pointed out that men of the mind are quite capable of creating their own ethics which is the sum total purpose of a religion therefore serves the same purpose and has no need of dieties other than his own mind. You will note that the Third Law of Objectivism is to take the findings of the nature of any observance and first judge it for practical use. Is it useful. Then assign it a place where it can be watched and further tested as observations and circumstances change. and always finish with the Third Law of judging the use of such ad ethical and of a moral value.

          Religion to my manner of thinking is primarily for the aid of those who are, shall we say, afraid of the dark and have not the wit to examine the nature of the dark and assuage or surmount the fear. the word itself is positive.

          All things and circumstances and their nature are mountable and an ethical use can be assigned. Animals adapt to their surroundings and learn to use the dark. Man changes his surroundings and invents a method of lighting his surroundings. Man learns that by lighting the area of concern he changes it's nature. Animals that hunt at night in the dark do not venture into the light for it is not natural to their nature. and vice versal. until they adapt to the surroundings. Chickens in a house with artificial lighting for example associate feed with light with eating with no light sleeping. Some faced with a strange intrusion act defensively.others leave the area.

          Metaphorically man does the same thing with anything he perceives as darkness. Changes the surroundings by accepting an explanation, lights a candle perhaps and prays for the sun to return. It becomes his diety. He associates it's presence with safety.

          One day 'an individual' points out that with darkness comes certain plants and animals that are edible Unable to explain the difference between night and day he points out fish atracted by the light are a blessing from the sun who is answering their prayers with a token of his return and always does Ahh hah my Sun helps me feeds me and is faithful to his children. And so it goes.

          Those people develop a religion and develop their own diety. In an eclipse or a storm they develop their own devils which are defeated proof of the Sun's power. And so it goes. Others invent a stronger flashlight and develop Mark One Mod one night vision devices. Their trust is in technology. and some go part way and treat technology as a God. Along with that the Priests develop theology a system of explaining everything and anything.

          Man notices it's hotter than last year with less rainfall. Oh yes says the Priest, The sun is angry at some condition and is punishing us until that condition is changed. It's not just you it's all of us. We call it global warming. Others referring to the annual records note that is year three in a thirty year weather cycle and by year fifteen it will be cooler on average.

          Some few realize it is not a Diety as such nor the intercession of a priest or scientist to use how some treat that responsibility. They realize everything that has been learned is a product of their own mind and abilty to reason, observe, think, evaluate. That their total knowledge is the sum of all who went before painstakingly observing the nature of things and occurances, constantly evaluating and assigning a moral value. We call them independent and free thinkers. While we share our knowledge and explain it we refuse to become their priests judging it be unethical. And so it goes.

          Ayn Rand showed it could be done just as the founders of the USA showed man could govern himself without divine guidance. Except to divine that to govern themselves they must have certain rights and certain responsibilities

          Those that fail to learn that lesson remain afraid of the dark

          Those that learn that lesson become the source of governing power in the place of Kings.

          Those that retain that lesson learn responsibility.

          Those that don't learn compliance.

          Those that choose half way measures learn the responsibility of compliance whether or not they understand it or not, like it or not.

          They have learned compromise.

          and are afraid of the dark.

          One of the lessons man learns or some learn is the value of self. Put in the crudest terms the more you give the more you get. The problem with the Rolling Stones Satisfaction guy he can't get no because he's to busy driving around the world profiling and rapping his burned out mufflers. All he gets is rusty mufflers and a traffic ticket.

          Cruder terms? Not really but the sex act can be wham bam for get you man or an act of love where the satisfaction of the partner is more important than your own. An equal response is invited. the sum of both is greater than the two parts. First example is zero sum gain the second is .......paradise or if you prefer heaven. I dont' think their is much satisfaction in Allah's version. Frustration maybe.
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  • Posted by $ FredTheViking 8 years, 4 months ago
    Interesting, I thought Altruism was more in line with more ancient thinking like "by helping others you help yourself" kind of thing. This suggests Altruism is more of absolute concept.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 4 months ago
    Altruism is only a call to revert to tribalism, where the needs of the individual simply don't count. The clash between the West and Islamic terrorists is a clash between individualism and collective "altruism."
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  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 4 months ago
    There has also been a strong attempt to find a "gene" for altruism as an explanation for why we are "altruistic".
    Its strange but there is no gene for altruism or for self interest as we have free will. The modern science of biothermodynamics makes it clear that acting for others increases energy costs at the expense of one self and ones loved ones. Any attempt to actually practice altruism fails for energetic and moral reasons.
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  • Posted by salta 8 years, 4 months ago
    Nice extract. I've often cited Comte as the origin, but never looked at his own words.

    A perspective from reading M. Scott Peck (Road Less Travelled) on the subject of psychological perceptions of responsibility towards other people...
    Peck describes our attitudes towards others as being somewhere on the spectrum between "neurosis" (I am responsible for everything that happens to everyone, I should try to fix all problems) and "character disorder" (the world and everyone else is the cause of everything that happens to me, nothing is my fault, so I can't fix any problems).

    It seems to me, Comte was suffering near the neurosis end of that spectrum, taking the responsibility for everything on his own shoulders.

    A well balanced personality should be near the middle of the spectrum. We are drawn towards the middle by applying rational thought to the world.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
    Choosing altruism is a denial of objectivism just as choosing the lesser of two evils is an acceptance of subjectivism. The problem comes with the third law and each individuals ability to choose moral values and standards of personal conduct. We all slip here and there but making a conscious choice in either case is not a slip. That's my standard. What's yours?
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  • Posted by Hot_Black_Desiato 8 years, 4 months ago
    Altruism = totally selfless act, of which there is no such thing as a totally selfless act. Nobody has ever given me something they have done that was totally selfless.

    If you received any sense of satisfaction, feeling of good, any remote emotional benefit to yourself, it was not selfless.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 4 months ago
    I have a question about what Comte is saying.
    "We are born under a load of obligations of every kind" -- Comte
    If this is true, he's saying someone did something for us, and now we owe them. If this is an account payable on our books, isn't it an asset on someone else's books, something they earned by helping us? It's odd then he immediately calls it benevolence and says this is our duty as humans and common source of happiness. He starts out talking about helping each other in trade and then jumps to helping being pure duty.
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    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 4 months ago
      No, he isn't talking about a trade. He says we're born by our nature with duties to others. Listen to the Leonard Peikoff lectures on the history of philosophy to see that duty mentality throughout the evolution of philosophy.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 4 months ago
        It is almost impossible to listen to Peikoff for very long. His voice grates on me and K. Not only that somehow the way he organizes his talks or his lilting style makes it very hard to listen to
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 4 months ago
          His lectures are superb and have been very popular. He was extremely articulate and well-organized. Audiences use to flock with enthusiasm to his lectures and the public recorded versions playing them back from tape reels. He took professional lessons on speaking, and articulated the principles of organization and presentation in his own excellent lecture series on Objective Communication. If you have trouble with the sound of his voice you should try adjusting it with an equalizer on your PC or whatever you use to play it.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 4 months ago
    In my experience it starts with benefit to yourself of considering others. You help someone out in business, and then people want to work with you, and it ends up helping you. Then there are cases where you help someone outside of business, maybe donating money or time to help someone with a problem because that's what you want to do. The unhealthy behavior starts when you start sacrificing your own interests in exchange for approval. "Good people help others."

    Jesus talks about this in the Christian Bible. But instead of telling people "stop sacrificing, do what you think is right and brings you happiness" he tells them to keep sacrificing but hide it so they're not even getting the reward of public approval. The authors promote self-denial, which I believe is a form of evil.
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    • Posted by Joy1inchrist 8 years, 4 months ago
      Right, CG! I agree ... "The unhealthy behavior starts when you start sacrificing your own interests in exchange for approval.". And yes, Jesus teaches performing acts of benevolence in a manner in which only the giver benefits! "Don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing.". This results in pure self-satisfaction.
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      • Posted by Joy1inchrist 8 years, 4 months ago
        Oops! Upon rereading this, I spotted an error. Of course, in a true act of benevolence, both benefactor and recipient would (ideally) benefit. The whole issue lies with motive. If we give to impress others and gain public approval, then we are becoming "second-handers" and receive no selfish benefit. What a shame - and a loss!
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    Posted by jimjamesjames 8 years, 4 months ago
    If altruism is simply helping other people, then I am an altruist. The issue for me, is using the concept to justify forcing me to help others, take my treasure by force in the name of altruism.
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    • Posted by Joy1inchrist 8 years, 4 months ago
      JJJ, Yes!!! I have thought of that very concept 100's of times. The evil is not in, as you say, "helping others". There is a wealth of self- satisfaction in being benevolent as Ayn Rand, herself, attested to. It's when the bureaucrats use it as a tool against us. And as Dale brought to our attention, Auguste Comte was no better than them in declaring "that individuals had a moral obligation to renounce self-interest and live for others.". It reminds me of a little comic strip kept in Ms. Rand's files ... a dad is talking to his young son and says, " Always bear in mind, Skippy, that we were put here to do good for others.". Skippy replies, "All right, Papa, an' what were the others put here for?". !!!
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      • Posted by jimjamesjames 8 years, 4 months ago
        Good for Skippy! RE: Auguste Comte, declaring "that individuals had a moral obligation to renounce self-interest and live for others."

        Bullshit. "Need does not create obligation."

        Another comment I recently read (am chagrined I did not think of it), "Givers have to set limits because takers never do."
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        • Posted by Joy1inchrist 8 years, 4 months ago
          Indeed! Wish I had learned that one early on ("Givers have to set limits because takers never do."). Just as in any human endeavor, we must consider the efficacy of our actions. Will the gift truly benefit or instill a sense of entitlement - an ever present feeling theses days, no doubt a consequence of the philosophy of altruism. Sad state of affairs we're in.
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