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In Memoriam, 2016, by Robert Gore

Posted by straightlinelogic 8 years, 6 months ago to Government
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On Memorial Day, America remembers and honors those who died while serving in the military. It is altogether fitting and proper to ask: for what did they die? Do the rationales offered by the military and government officials who decide when and how the US will go to war, and embraced by the public, particularly those who lose loved ones, stand up to scrutiny and analysis? Some will recoil, claiming it inappropriate on a day devoted to honoring the dead. However, it is because war is a matter of life and death, for members of the military and, inevitably, civilians, that its putative justifications be subject to the strictest tests of truth and the most probing of analyses.

This is an excerpt. For the full article please click the above link.
SOURCE URL: https://straightlinelogic.com/2016/05/30/in-memoriam-2016-by-robert-gore/


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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 6 months ago
    Question: How many "one-off" attacks are you willing to put up with before preventing any further ones? Should the USA become the pincushion for every wicked group that wants to show-off how powerful they are. How long will it be before the USA's lack of retaliation becomes an invitation? With our open borders, is it not possible for thousands to infiltrate and create chaos? A full armored attack of the USA may be difficult, but by creating panic and insecurity within our borders by infiltrators is the new warfare. Fighting the jihadists and others within our borders and defeating them, does not put an end to anything as we saw with the world trade center which was the 2nd attempt that was far more successful than the first. The answer of course is to attack the spider, not just the web. This will require the infamous "boots on the ground" and air and sea power and a determination for extermination. Anything less will mean defeat, starting in increments and winding up in total destruction.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      Before we exterminate the Middle East (sounds a lot like genocide), why don't we and our European buddies try getting out and staying out? Whatever one may think of various Islamicist "grievances," one cannot be denied. We (and our buddies) are in their territory, have been for a long time, and the resultant wars there are in large measure responsible for the refugee flows that have made it possible "for thousands to infiltrate and create chaos," in Europe, and threaten to do so in the US. I would regard getting out and staying out as worthy of at least a try before we escalate the policies that have already produced so many failures.
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      • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 6 months ago
        Clearly, you were asleep in history class, or maybe your books never addressed the Muslim conquests. Maybe you didn't realize that it took the Spaniards nearly 800 years to get the Muslims out of their country, and it took a Polish army to beat back the Turks at the gates of Vienna. And if you've seen any Dracula movies, you should know that they really were about Vlad Dracul, a guy who was so murderous that he became a legend, but that was what was necessary to keep the Turks out of Rumania. The last time I looked, my map didn't show Spain or Austria or Rumania as being in the middle east. So, if the Muslims could be so gracious as to invite themselves into other peoples' lands, why are they so upset when others return the favor?!? And, why should we give a rat's ass what they think? They obviously didn't care about what others thought of their depredations. You can't have it both ways. If you believe in conquest, then you can't in all honesty complain if conquest is imposed on you. The fact is, virtually ALL of the so-called Muslim lands weren't Muslim before the conquests. Now that they have the land, they want to hold onto it. I say, they can hold onto it as long as they can, and not a second longer. And if they lose it, as they say in Siberia, "tough shitsky."
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        • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
          More to the Siberian reference than meets the eye. The Russians have been defending themselves against Islamic incursion for centuries and the rise of Islam in recent times seems to be starting the cycle all over again. I believe whats happening in Ukraine has an Islamic component regarding Islamic resettling of the Crimea. Stalin threw them out to secure Russia's access to the sea and the new PC Ukraine government was letting them back in. I suspect a reasonable component of Putin's Middle East policy is if he can foster a scenario where Muslims are killing each other, they won't be killing Russians.
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      • Posted by Maritimus 8 years, 6 months ago
        Hello, Mr. Gore,
        I come from the part of southeast Europe that was under Ottoman Turks' occupation for more than 400 years. The people have an expression, poorly translated here, "damned Turkish times, never again!" I will never ever submit to any Islamic laws, or accept that Islam influences our culture or policies. Should that start to happen, I will escape as I did from communists. I would have a prejudice against a Muslim neighbor. I had some such neighbors in my long gone past. Never again! Islam is trying to push humanity for more than a millennium back. I have read their Koran. It is an evil book.
        EDIT: inserted forgotten initial salute
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 6 months ago
        Extermination of the Middle East is not on the table.
        Extermination of ISIS, HAMAS and other jihadi is a different matter. Also, if we completely abandon the area, what happens to Israel? they are powerful, but they cannot stand against the entire Arab world, not to mention the Iranian threat. Not that I'm a confidante in any form, but I can assure you with a certainty that if they are pressed to the point of extinction, they will resort to nuclear retaliation. It is true that our policies to date in that area have been a dreadful mix of poor judgment and stupid moves. Sometimes a show of force and the display of an iron will are just as effective, providing we are not retaliating for another "one-off" attack.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
      Thank you for expressing my own thoughts very well and saving me the trouble.

      I do have one more addition. I wonder if the current occupant of the White House bothered to invite the Prime Minister of Japan to come and place a wreath on the deck of the Arizona.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 6 months ago
        He only instills guilt to the USA.
        When General Tojo heard the rhetoric after Pearl Harbor he said, "I fear we have awakened a sleeping tiger." I think the tiger opened its eye on 9-11 and went back to sleep.
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        • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 6 months ago
          It was Admiral Yamamoto who said that. Even though he planned the attack, he warned the Japanese high command of the possible outcome, which proved prescient.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 6 months ago
            After another attempted "one-off" attack ... on Midway, it was Yamamoto that had to report to His Majesty. That was Yamamoto's famous last line in the movie Midway.
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            • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 6 months ago
              +1 for Midway reference. Just watched it last week. Did a WWII movie binge with "Tora, Tora, Tora", "Midway", "Patton", "A Bridge Too Far", and "Battle of the Bulge".
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          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 6 months ago
            Thanks for the correction.
            In those days, when I was a kid, all Japanese were interchangeable villains. As to patriotism, it would make most Americans today seem like guests rather than citizens.
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  • Posted by jsw225 8 years, 6 months ago
    I've said it elsewhere in the Gulch, and I'll repeat it here.

    There are evil people in the world that you can do little else but fight and kill them. And there are people in the world not capable of fighting them. We shouldn't be morally obligated to help them, but we should choose to help when we can.

    The greatest disservice we can do to veterans is to act like there is a second, "more peaceful" path to war. This has lead to the United States losing every war since we've attempted this method.

    Like Robin Olds said to President Johnson when Johnson told him that we were in Vietnam to prevent the North Vietnamese from interfering with the south, "the way to end this war is to win the damned thing!" I.E. Find your enemy and destroy them. Pretending your enemy is not your enemy just means that you are going to lose.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 8 years, 6 months ago
      Jsw225 "Pretending your enemy is not your enemy" is what our Administration is doing , no profiling just spy on every American. Treat all air travelers the same a 1 year old baby to a 90 year old veteran must take of those shoes. Sheeez I feel safer.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 6 months ago
    "Those who pay self-serving tribute to their valor--"
    Including small town and rural county tin-horn politicians who has done that since the late 1700s,, I bet you could sink another Titanic before you could stack in half all of "those."
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 6 months ago
    Honest, Robert...
    However, after what it pulled, Japan deserved to get it's butt kicked...Period...Hydrogen bombs...a bit drastic and probably was a show of power and the little creatures that made them were dying to try it out.
    Germany?...Hmm...I've always seen it as a fight for humanity...The Dignity of Humanity was then and not so much now...what America was all about.
    WW1 was of course...a black swan event.

    We Americans, again until late, are a soft touch with easily pulled heart strings...I'm not ashamed of that...but it's something we need to acknowledge and guard it with reason.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      The only point I made in article was that Pearl Harbor was a one-off attack by the Japanese and they had no intention of invading the US. I did not bring up the morality of the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan (not hydrogen bombs; they weren't invented until 1952). I'm from Los Alamos and my father did above ground nuclear tests in Nevada in the 1950s. I can assure you that not all scientists involved with the Manhattan project (I find your use of the term "little creatures" questionable), some of whom he knew, were "dying to try it out." Many of them were quite conflicted about what they had developed, as were many of the US's military leaders.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 6 months ago
        Corrected and no offense intended...I understand your objectivism..."in all things good and bad we find those involved to be good and bad". However, my added commentary about Our heart strings puts us in a precarious position...in those instances, it is difficult to be objective.
        Note: my praise of your Honesty.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 6 months ago
    While I agree with the overarching message, SLL, I have to disagree on one nontrivial point. The Japanese taking out Pearl Harbor was an effort to make it difficult for the US to interfere with their attempt to claim what is now Indonesia and get the oil that the Japanese sought. The Japanese never seriously planned on invading the US mainland. For the Japanese, WW2 truly was a war for oil, as was their war with the Russians forty years prior.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 6 months ago
      I think that the Japanese just wanted to conquer other lands. It seemed to be in their culture. Why would they want to take over China? Why did they do medical experiments on the chinese?

      I think they were bad boys and deserved what they got from us.

      They got their butts kicked, and they are into what looks like a permanent recession, so they are quiet. Give them the opportunity and I wonder how long it would take for them to want to take over other countries again. Same comment for the Chinese government and the Russians, and even Germany for that matter. The United States hasn't been free of this desire either, with a very checkered past.

      Without a true dedication to freedom brought about by a lot of rational thinking, human nature seems not far from the animal instinct to survive any way possible.
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      • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 6 months ago
        AR showed that it takes more than instinct to survive. When the environment changes, instinct won't save the animals. So, "any way possible" is not the answer. Japan's and Germany's war making were primarily economic; they were fighting for land, resources and markets. Following the examples of the UK, France, Holland, Portugal, Spain, Russia and the US, the Germans and Japanese wanted their own empires; that was considered necessary to maintain a large industrial system. Technology has rendered those arguments obsolete, and the Germans and Japanese weren't looking to change the system, but to impose their desires by force.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      I agree. I don't think I said the Japanese planned to invade the US during WWII.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 6 months ago
        Point of FACT...my grandfather was stationed in the Aleutian islands, He was there because the Japanese took and held and Kiska Island and Attu Island near Alaska.

        Further, Japan made hostile overtures on the Mainland when they sent war planes over San Francisco in 1941. Also, there is a rumor from 1942 that there was a battle between Japanese forces and US forces near Los Angles.

        While they had no chance of conquering the US they were definitely up for taking our territoriality at the expense of our people.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
          Yes, somebody reminded me of the Aleutian Islands on SLL. However, I don't think the Japanese ever seriously considered invading the US, notwithstanding what they did in Alaska and California.
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          • Posted by Dobrien 8 years, 6 months ago
            My uncle was over run in his foxhole in Alaska by the Japs. He was shot 3 times and then a granade was then tossed in his hole". When found he was flown to Seatle and my grandparents were told he was not going to make it. The medics were tremendous and safed his life. He was the father of 4 a grand father to 12 a great grandfather to 8 before he passed in 2010.
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            • Posted by Dobrien 8 years, 6 months ago
              By the way my Uncle Jerry, he never spoke of the war. He carried on as if it never happened. His younger brother my Dad told us about it after Jerry passed away.
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 6 months ago
            Hindsight is 20-20. Back then, what were Americans and the government to think? They reacted, had to react, to the degree dictated by Japans conduct and actions. Had they gotten a toe hold in LA or SF I have no doubt they would have attempted to hold it and perhaps extend it, as fool hardy as it may be, even if it cost every Japanese life.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 6 months ago
        Indeed, you did not say that. I suppose that the term "one-off attack" led me to misread it the way that I did. Pearl Harbor really wasn't a "one-off attack". When you examine the attacks on The Phillipines, Midway, and the Aleutians, all such attacks were coordinated toward the goal of eliminating any possible US interference. I just got done watching Midway, the only war movie I like - precisely because it was the codebreaking (i.e. intelligence) that was the key to the battle.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years, 6 months ago
    as usual...great article...

    i note you comment on "honor" and not "sacrifice"...i like that...

    also, they asked the Japanese generals as to why they did not invade california after Pearl Harbor, the generals did not want to face the millions of guns private citizens owned...as the primary reason that they did not invade mainland u.s.....
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      Thank you. The widespread-ownership-of-guns strategy has worked well for the Swiss. They are required to own guns and know how to use them. Between that and the mountains, Europe's bent-on-conquest fools know better than to mess with the Swiss, and the Swiss certainly have no interest in jumping into the European playpen. The same posture would of course work for the US, and is pretty much what George Washington recommended, but it's far too logical, even for a lot of people here on Galt's Gulch, a supposed haven for Objectivists.
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 6 months ago
    Thank you, Robert, for the honesty and objectivity of your essay. Putative justifications, indeed, along with vilifications and demonization of all who won't genuflect to us. Never ask what we may have done to create those enemies; never see the conflict through both sides' eyes; never see the others as resistance fighters defending themselves against our aggressions. Always claim they are terrorists for no reason other than hating our values (what are those values, anyway?). And never, never, under any circumstances, admit we are hypocrites with double standards.

    Just look at all the male commentators here who virtually advocate genocide, or at least killing them until they no longer want to defend themselves. These commentators whitewash our crimes against humanity as "a dreadful mix of poor judgment and stupid moves". Are we really in the process of destroying 7 or more countries over there just to protect Israel? Is endless war really the best way to protect it? Israel will not rest until it has goaded the US into attacking Iran as well, notwithstanding a verifiable agreement that Iran will not pursue nuclear weapons. Need I repeat that Iranians are not Arabs, have no love for Arabs, and are a different sect of Islam (Shia).

    With every day that we pursue our terrorist acts against those countries, we dig ourselves deeper into an immoral abyss. History will judge us and our hubris of wanting to dominate the globe because we think we can, and I fear that judgment will be severe.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 6 months ago
      Thank you, Puzzlelady. At various times I have said many of the same things on this site, and I have found, like you undoubtedly have, some of the responses to be unbelievably uninformed and the products of jingosim rather than any kind of logic and fact-based analysis. There are not enough hours in the day to respond to it all, but anyone on Galt's Gulch who is looking for the other side of the story I refer to my website, Straight Line Logic, and the many articles I have written about the US's foreign and military policy. Again, thank you.
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  • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 6 months ago
    Two things. First, Japan's mistake wasn't invading the US, but not taking Hawaii. If they'd taken those islands, at the outset, they might have prevailed, or at least made it a lot harder to defeat them. Second, the reason we get more terrorists over time, is because of the inane rules of engagement. If we showed the terrorists what real barbarism looked like, they'd stay home.
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  • Posted by Enyway 8 years, 6 months ago
    I have only two problems with this post. First, the "s" in the word freedom. You can fill book with all the freedoms you can name. Freedom is not plural. Never put an "s" on that word. It does not belong.

    Secondly, pencils do not make mistakes, guns do not kill and power does not corrupt.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 6 months ago
    I see Memorial Day honoring those Americans who fought and died in numerous Foriegn Wars and those veterans who survived and came home. Some still living most have past, such as my father, my wife's father and uncle. Plus, other of my relatives who have served. You can't take away that honor or service because you "think" it was in the name of the government. But, that is history now and you don't have a time machine to go back and change. Even if you tried a new divergent time line would be created and it wouldn't effect past history. It is a matter of what happens now and in the future. Wether, we could affect it by our participation in or changing the existing govermental system. Or we could build a new system as many in the Gulch would love to do!
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 6 months ago
    Exactly. Never ran into that part of the military though.in your sentence three. Visited the Representatives and Senators one time. Only one that had time to say hello was Wayne Morse. The one who voted against it. Voted for him every time after that. One of only two from that party. Never met anyone who had voted for the others. I guess they just sneaked in the side door but without a single vote?

    Altogether about four years in total passed and man o man did they want us! Until it was over.

    Wayne Morse was the only honest politician I ever met. Come to think of it at that level he was one of the only two I ever met. The other one was stumping college poly sci. classes looking for votes.

    I say al this sort of tongue in cheek but not very deep in the jowls., Did you know that not one Democrat voted to approve going into Iraq? The rest just confessed to being taken to the cleaners and ha ha were rejected as being too dirty to pale.
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