Democracies end when they are too democratic.

Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 5 months ago to Philosophy
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This is a brilliant article, but all this talk of "democracy" makes me sick to my stomach; mob rule, lack of any sort of rational moral base and lets not forget...anything goes!

I think Rand Herself, was no fan - any comments on that?

Here is a great excerpt:

In Eric Hoffer’s classic 1951 tract, The True Believer, he sketches the dynamics of a genuine mass movement. He was thinking of the upheavals in Europe in the first half of the century, but the book remains sobering, especially now. Hoffer’s core insight was to locate the source of all truly mass movements in a collective sense of acute frustration. Not despair, or revolt, or resignation — but frustration simmering with rage. Mass movements, he notes (as did Tocqueville centuries before him), rarely arise when oppression or misery is at its worst (say, 2009); they tend to appear when the worst is behind us but the future seems not so much better (say, 2016). It is when a recovery finally gathers speed and some improvement is tangible but not yet widespread that the anger begins to rise. After the suffering of recession or unemployment, and despite hard work with stagnant or dwindling pay, the future stretches ahead with relief just out of reach. When those who helped create the last recession face no consequences but renewed fabulous wealth, the anger reaches a crescendo.
SOURCE URL: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-trump.html


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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 5 months ago
    Brilliant? No.
    Although I agree with some of the comments about Trump, the conclusion sounds more like a plea for every voter to cast aside principle and vote for Hillary.
    Just more lesser evil rubbish camouflaged with rhetoric, imo.
    In spite of all the complaints about democracy, the author doesn't dare mention that the states united were designed to be a constitutional republic. He doesn't bother to list the changes made to circumvent it, nor the way to repair it. The only "fix" is to band together for Hillary to stop Trump.
    Looter.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      That denial of the American Republic was the sickness I felt in my stomach.
      I saw no endorsement of hiltery nor bernski.

      The brilliance I was referring to was his historical background and his descriptions of "Unbridled" freedoms that ignore the laws of nature at the micro level and the physical laws intended at the macro level, that ultimately brings down the demon-ocracy...The cosmos works because there is just enough resistance to make things run smoothly...without that resistance, chaos wins the day, with too much resistance it all blows up. Pretty clear our forefathers knew that.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 5 months ago
        I was referring to the penultimate paragraph where the author chides the GOP:
        "And if they fail in Indiana or Cleveland, as they likely will, they need, quite simply, to disown their party’s candidate. They should resist any temptation to loyally back the nominee or to sit this election out. They must take the fight to Trump at every opportunity, unite with Democrats and Independents against him, and be prepared to sacrifice one election "
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
          I see...I was more inamered by the history of too much unaccountable freedom...didn't pay much mind to the political assessment you picked up on.

          I wouldn't throw out the value in his historical view point though...that's what attracted me.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 5 months ago
      I am happy that you see through the "manipulation" we are all subjected to. They don't give Hillary equal treatment at all. Not that Trump is perfect by any means, but I do think Hillary is worse.

      I wanted a debate between Sanders, Johnson, and Trump (forget Hillary on that- who wants to listen to her evasions and lies anyway). I thought that kind of debate would bring out the real differences between the candidates for a change.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 5 months ago
        Good idea, term2. Probably too good to happen. The demreps don't share the stage with anyone, and if forced upon them they rig the questions via the corrupt media. If it was done early in the campaign, it counld be more likely (still <10% chance;^), imo.
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 5 months ago
          Already nixed by the repubs, so 0% chance now. I saw sanders today on a talk show and all he wanted to do was personally attack trump. He should be going after Hillary at this point I would think. She is the one who will push him into obscurity next week. And the "rules" of debates have decided Johnson would need 15% "popularity" to be included in a debate
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          • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 5 months ago
            Rigged, as usual, just like the justice system.
            Allowing your adversary to judge a disagreement with government is insane. So is allowing statist political parties to set rules that eliminate their competition. Winner take all (electoral votes) election is another travesy against liberty.
            F%^k the GOP! Looting for 156 years. (Ditto the dems.)
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            • Posted by term2 8 years, 5 months ago
              Between attacks by trump and sanders the GOP and democrats may just have lost their hold on the elections. They both have been shown now to be crooked
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 8 years, 5 months ago
    A convention of states can, in theory, fix a lot of our problems with the central government. But, of course, state legislators are politicians, too, and are likely to muck it up. Worth a try, though, given the Federal power-grab that gets worse and worse, especially since the Obama-Roberts regime took over.
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  • Posted by bobsprinkle 8 years, 5 months ago
    I was not aware of the length of the article. As I read and scrolled down...down...down, I was agreeing and making a list of those I wanted to share this with. Until I got to the last paragraphs. Then I saw this lengthy analysis was nothing more than an endorsement of The Hildebeast. At the risk of offending you northeastern folks, I should not have expected anything less from The New Yorker.
    The most benefit I got from this is the two book titles from Eric Hoffer and Sinclair Lewis. I will add these to my reading list.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      And it didn't even follow his reasoning in the rest of the article...I live next door to those NY values and living on the shore...I see it all the time...lots of shaking my head during the summer months.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 5 months ago
    Everyone knows the story about the guy that brought a knife to a gunfight. Trump goes the other direction, he brings bazookas, flame throwers, and hand grenades with a nuclear bomb in his back pocket just in case. The problem is that the people are so frustrated with corruption in government that heavy weapons seem appropriate. Both Trump and Sanders have gained attention by claiming that the system is rigged and while their solutions come from polar opposite directions there contentions have great appeal. Each wants to trash the status quo and replace it with something that neither can define. Democracy has been defined as two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. That is one of the reasons we have a republic. But as Ben Franklin said "We have given you a republic... if you can keep it." The founders hoped the system would last 100 years before it failed. We are now past 200 years but winter is finally coming.
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    • Posted by melissa97 8 years, 5 months ago
      +1 for the game of thrones reference =)
      And it definitely seems right now as if there is no way out. We are being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      We'll need a 100 year plan to get er back...
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 5 months ago
        The 100 year plan to get her back is precisely my problem with the conclusion of Atlas Shrugged. It would take a tremendous time investment to get the world to be worth going back to after a collapse like Venezuela's.
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
          Agreed...but if you think about it, this is what the progressives have been doing.
          The more this election cycle go on, the more I think we're done with the America we once knew.
          That's where it will take a generation or two to change the culture...you see it yourself...they will not even entertain a rational thought, never mind have a discussion.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 5 months ago
            One major difference is that it would be a sacrifice to put such a time investment in for a reward that would take longer than our lifetimes. That would not be Objectivist.
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            • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
              Whos's to say...iron out the bugs as we go...have to lay out the rules and a wish list.
              I understand what your sayin...the left has done this on Our dime and Our time...I'd love to reverse the flavor...(yes, I said flavor)
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  • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 5 months ago
    A screed. Left wing extremist screed. Contains just enough cherry picked history and fiction to veil the fact it is a propaganda hit piece. The author is very good at pressing the appropriate emotional buttons and spewing innuendo to get the reader to despise Trump and vote for Clinton. The "bury 'em in BS" tactic is what makes this article a true screed.

    Just using the quoted paragraph above, the author does NOT want the reader to make any kind of connection that "The True Believer" is what put Obama in office twice and may put Clinton in office in 2016. Will anyone say Sanders supporters are not "True Believers"? Additionally, when the author says "When those who helped create the last recession face no consequences ..." I doubt very much if he is referring to the government meddling in the mortgage industry is what actually created the mess. I doubt if Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, or Chris Dodd, et al, will face anything for what they've done.

    I found the article a very long and boring enumeration of the left's usual talking points and name calling. The only difference here is the author was able to pull up some unique appeal to authority references in an attempt to give the screed some veneer of respectability.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      I was more enamored by the history of too much unaccountable freedom...didn't pay much mind to the political assessment you picked up on.

      I wouldn't throw out the value in his historical view point though...that's what attracted me.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 5 months ago
        Fully understood, OUC, for sure. I love history and my mind gets captured whenever I see something I'm not familiar with. Agreed, that his historical viewpoint has some lessons to learn, but though I think he knows some history, he misses the boat on some of the lessons. I would tell my children as they were growing up that "Freedom without responsibility is freedom corrupted and soon lost" (I'll let you borrow the car while you're working to buy your own, son, now don't f**k it up). The "unaccountable freedom" in the democracy the author paints is freedom corrupted (I'll give you a car, son, have fun and do whatever you want).

        At this point I see Trump as the only candidate that has a chance of occupying the White House that MIGHT bring some responsibility and accountability to government. Clinton and Sanders have zero responsibility and Johnson has zero chance of being POTUS.
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
          If he does...I hope a constitutionalist can keep him on a short leach.
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          • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 5 months ago
            Agreed. Or at least a Constitutionalist can get him more on track of what it means. Hillery and Sanders will tell a Constitutionalist what it means and that interpretation could change on any given day of the week, depending on how they feel at the time, which means the Constitution would be moot.
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  • Posted by ProfChuck 8 years, 5 months ago
    A democracy only functions if the voters are intelligent and well informed. The surest way to destroy a democracy is to compromise the education system.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 5 months ago
    Just another Trump hating article. I am so tired of this stuff. They just want crooked Hillary with all that entails for the wall street establishment at our expense (remember the bailouts.....)
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