Hydrogen Fuel Cars--The Latest

Posted by hrymzk 10 years, 6 months ago to Technology
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Hydrogen Fuel Cars which emit only water vapor, have arrived. And this story is abut the car stats and refuel stations, California style.
Currently Mercedes. Coming next year: Hyandai, Toyota, and Honda.. Cost per mile equal to gas. Range 250-300 miles
Enjoy this PBS article.
San Fran Bay can say goodbye to that blanket of brown disfiguring smog.

Harry M
SOURCE URL: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/comes-first-hydrogen-powered-cars-fueling-stations/


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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 6 months ago
    I hope so, but I bet there are number of problems we are not hearing about. For instance, how is energy generated to produce hydrogen? Coal fired plants? Natural gas? If natural gas, would we be better off economically and environmentally using natural gas cars? What about the materials in the fuel cell? Are they more hazardous than present cars? I am sure we will find a better answer to the internal combustion engine, but when it is PBS pushing the idea I become skeptical.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 6 months ago
      You should be skeptical. There are several levels of possible tradeoffs between environmental friendliness and cost in this problem. The technical issues are solved. The economic ones are solved about as much as they will be, but not quite to most people's satisfaction. One of the questions I ask my students is how much on a percentage basis are you willing to pay for a completely environmentally friendly fuel. The vast majority say that they wouldn't pay any more. A few would pay up to 30%. I'll gladly absolve them of their guilt if they pay me enough for it - and have done so in the past.
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    • Posted by freddycloss 10 years, 6 months ago
      The most cost-effective method of distilling H2 is directly from natural gas. Honda has created a unit that can produce H2 in your home.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 6 months ago
        It's not distilled from natural gas. The reaction is steam reforming of methane (the major component of natural gas).
        CH4 + H2O --> CO + 3 H2
        followed by several other reactions and purifications.

        The key player in Honda's group that started Honda's H2 efforts is Cory Phillips.
        When I was a grad student, one other grad student and I trained Cory
        while he was an undergrad at Michigan. He's not John Galt, but you could
        tell he was going to be quite outstanding. I certainly put him at least at my level.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 6 months ago
          That's the current most economical method (to my understanding - your area of expertise, not mine). But I also remember in HS breaking apart water molecules via electrolysis (?) Put two electrodes into a beaker of distilled water and watch the hydrogen bubbles appear. I'm guessing that's more energy intensive than the steam reforming method? Could the electrolysis method be done as a side process to electrical current flow for another purpose and capture the Hydrogen gas?
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 6 months ago
            Electrolysis is more energy intensive and about 2.5 times more expensive than using gasoline. Astronauts use electrolysis and capture the oxygen gas for breathing, so your last statement is certainly plausible, Robbie. It just isn't economical.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 6 months ago
              Never did like EE (I could never find those pesky electrons - a puddle of oil, that I can deal with). I'm a mech guy, with an emphasis in hydraulics systems (from the school of hard knocks).
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        • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 6 months ago
          I have a storage question. About 25 years ago I read that owing to small size of H, the best that a tank could hold was 85%. That is, 15% escaped into the atmosphere. Has this been improved upon?
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 6 months ago
            The most you should put into a tank is 85% because you need some space for the boiloff to go. Otherwise, you would have an unsafe condition. This would be true for any cryogenic liquid.
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            • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 6 months ago
              Ah, they were talking about high-pressure storage in the NPR video... not cryogenic or liquid H2...

              Yes, H2 is a tiny molecule and treats lots of 'seals' as if they were window screens. And I seem to recall something about H2 embrittleing metals they seep into, too.

              For the proponents of H2 from the Solar Cells on your roof, re-do the math. Some of the estimates from the linked sites imply that your rooftop solar electric could not possibly produce enough H2 for average driving consumption... unless you have an Al Gore-sized home roof. And it looks like they're not factoring in the COST of adding those PV cells to your roof... just assuming the power is 'free' because it comes from solar photons.

              Unlike Obama's belief, somebody really had to mine, refine and ship the materials to the companies that MADE all those parts for your roof, and they don't seem to have infinite life expectancy, either. Anyone know of a company recycling 'old' PV arrays or even leasing them with options to replace them with higher-efficiency models as they're developed?

              Anyone else ask these kinds of questions?
              Cheers!
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 6 months ago
                If they were talking about high pressure storage, then likely the reason for the empty space on top is that they were using a metal hydride (solid) storage material similar to the old rechargeable (non-lithium) batteries. It is much safer than liquid or gas phase storage.

                Yes, H2 does embrittle metals.
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        • Posted by squareone 10 years, 6 months ago
          From the chemical reaction listed above, carbon monoxide is produced. How much, and how does this figure stand up compared to existing internal combustion engines?
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 6 months ago
            That CO is not going to come out the exhaust. In an IC engine, it will get combusted. The big advantage to H2 is the fuel cell engine's efficiency (~50% instead of 28-30 for an IC engine). Unfortunately, the fuel cell is intolerant of H2 below 99.999% purity. Hydrogen purification was what I specialized in.
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  • Posted by nicktheitguy 10 years, 6 months ago
    OK, putting aside the fact that the Hindenburg was full of Hydrogen...lets look at a few comments in the article:
    "So, in 2013, Governor Jerry Brown signed a new law that provides $20 million a year to build at least 100 hydrogen refueling stations in California by 2024. " - That's roughly two million dollars of tax money per filling station...are these going to be private filling stations or ones that California owns? If they are private, what makes this any better than the gov't giving subsidies to oil companies that the Libs are always complaining about? Huh Libs?
    "Arnold Schwarzenegger’s plan relied on private investors to help build up to 100 hydrogen stations by 2010. But the plan failed." - So the free market would not support it? So we once again try to force the market to accept it using taxpayer funds...got it...

    Californians deserve everything they have voted for over the years...just sayin'.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 10 years, 6 months ago
      It goes further than that. GM (when it was General Motors) was investing in a fueling station network that they were going to own, and piloting Hydrogen Fuel Cell Cars in 2008 in two areas of the US. It was going well. Government Motors caned the project to focus on the electric car (the volt) instead.

      One market was New York and the other was Southern California.

      So first our government blocked private industry from building fueling stations and then is taking tax money to do it after they blocked it from happening with a US company.

      That makes sense somehow, but I can not figure out how.
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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 6 months ago
    Wow...costs less than gasoline, no emmissions....it mus be a plot of those evil Koch brothers and the Bushies that is why we don't have this already...!!!

    Once again we are asked to totally suspend belief and common sense to believe another pie in the sky story. The only thing positive about this technology is that we could create hydrogen generation plants at these ridiculous windmill and solar farms and use up the surplus energy which is produced due to the lack of control as to when the power is produced. Also these wind farms tend to be in the middle of frigging nowhere so you have at least a 10% transmission loss in getting the power to somewhere it is actually needed. Hydrogen thus produced could be thus be trucked where it is needed.
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  • Posted by wiggys 10 years, 6 months ago
    more GOVERNMENT involvement in what should be private investments. as we know GOVERNMENT involvement means WASTING taxpayer dollars. IF there is ever going to be a market for these types of vehicles the car buyers will see the benefits and want them which in turn will cause some investor to see the potential and build fueling stations. the future is GASOLINE powered cars.
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    • Posted by jcabello 10 years, 6 months ago
      Or government can tax what it does not like, to pick winners and make losers. In California the total tax for gas for instance is almost $0.68/gallon. In the mean time corn ethanol is being subsidized, much to the detriment of those who like to eat.
      I'd like to take a moment also to thank you all that pay taxes for subsidizing, ahem funding tax credits, for my solar panels, thank you all for paying for my electricity.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 6 months ago
    From 2011 press release:

    "Researchers led by MIT professor Daniel Nocera have produced something they’re calling an “artificial leaf”: Like living leaves, the device can turn the energy of sunlight directly into a chemical fuel that can be stored and used later as an energy source.

    The artificial leaf — a silicon solar cell with different catalytic materials bonded onto its two sides — needs no external wires or control circuits to operate. Simply placed in a container of water and exposed to sunlight, it quickly begins to generate streams of bubbles: oxygen bubbles from one side and hydrogen bubbles from the other. If placed in a container that has a barrier to separate the two sides, the two streams of bubbles can be collected and stored, and used later to deliver power: for example, by feeding them into a fuel cell that combines them once again into water while delivering an electric current.

    The creation of the device is described in a paper published Sept. 30 in the journal Science. Nocera, the Henry Dreyfus Professor of Energy and professor of chemistry at MIT, is the senior author; the paper was co-authored by his former student Steven Reece PhD ’07 (who now works at Sun Catalytix, a company started by Nocera to commercialize his solar-energy inventions), along with five other researchers from Sun Catalytix and MIT.

    The device, Nocera explains, is made entirely of earth-abundant, inexpensive materials — mostly silicon, cobalt and nickel — and works in ordinary water. Other attempts to produce devices that could use sunlight to split water have relied on corrosive solutions or on relatively rare and expensive materials such as platinum.

    The artificial leaf is a thin sheet of semiconducting silicon — the material most solar cells are made of — which turns the energy of sunlight into a flow of wireless electricity within the sheet. Bound onto the silicon is a layer of a cobalt-based catalyst, which releases oxygen, a material whose potential for generating fuel from sunlight was discovered by Nocera and his co-authors in 2008. The other side of the silicon sheet is coated with a layer of a nickel-molybdenum-zinc alloy, which releases hydrogen from the water molecules."

    I have mused that the key to low cost reactions (chemical/physical) may lie in the production of a three dimensionally precise catalyst. This is how biology works, and it would seem that you could lower the reaction threshold that way.

    Jan, wants H-car
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  • Posted by jcabello 10 years, 6 months ago
    The problem with (liquid) hydrogen is not engineering, it's straight physics. Liquid hydrogen has about three times less energy per gallon than gasoline. So if you get 30 miles/gallon in a gasoline car, you'll get only 10 miles/gallon of liquid hydrogen (or 2.5 to 5 miles per gallon of compressed hydrogen). Who wants to be driving a hydrogen tank with wheels. The hydrogen tank also has to be heavier, because hydrogen has to be kept under pressure. That puts also a limitation, because you can make a car lighter to get more miles per gallon, buy necessarily cars have to be heavier than if they had just a regular gas tank.

    Another issue is that hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is only a means of transporting energy. It has to be made using electricity or another source. If made from methane, the process creates CO, which is burned to CO2. The processes that generate hydrogen are not carbon neutral. You might as well get more energy and less pollution (if you think of CO2 as that) by burning the fuel directly.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 6 months ago
    Hydrogen fueled fleets of large vehicles (buses, trucks) have been as economical as running off of diesel since 1998. I worked in the hydrogen industry from 1997-1998 and did hydrogen research and development projects from 1997 to 2006. The economics of automobiles have always been limited by the weight and cost of both the fuel cell (twice as efficient as the internal combustion engine) and the hydrogen storage system. If you are willing to pay about 30% more for both the vehicle and the fuel, hydrogen fueled vehicles are a reasonable option. I can make hydrogen from just about any sort of hydrocarbon fuel or from electricity. You do not need to worry about energy supply for the Gulch, when it gets to that point. A competitor will probably come up with a cheaper option, but this will be part of my Gulch solution when the time comes.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 6 months ago
      There will be several Gulches. One type of Gulch will be for people who are unsophisticated, angry the people mistreated them for it, looking to mistreat someone else, and looking for a philosophical objectivist fig leaf to put over that. That Gulch will be the minority. Most of them will people going out and solving problem.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago

    This chicken vs the egg argument is so much scrambled eggs. The roads and refuel stations for the original cars were, I'm sure, few and far between.in outlying areas.
    We have this new fantastic info resource, the internet. There's a website for the natgas refuel stations across the country. Hours, pricing. etc Users can even give a quality rating for specific stations.
    New tech is never to be bad-mouthed. Even though this or that one falls by the wayside.
    Place your bets, oops investments, now

    Harry M
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    • Posted by jcabello 10 years, 6 months ago
      Also in the 1930s there were already cars that would get around 60 miles per gallon of gasoline. So these cars did not need that many stations, and people were not wanting to drive a hybrid BMW with far less gas mileage just for the sake of acceleration.
      Compressed natural gas is much better option than hydrogen, because it being the current source of hydrogen, is much more efficient burning it directly than losing a large percent of the energy in the extraction of hydrogen. As opposed to having roughly the same price per H2 vs gasoline, compressed natural gas is ~40% cheaper vs gasoline.
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  • Posted by jspringr 10 years, 6 months ago
    It still requires a power plant to produce electricity to power the hydrogen mfg plant to create hydrogen from water to power cars. Where is the benefit? Why don't you just power cars directly with gasoline or diesel fuel?
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 10 years, 6 months ago
    I wouldn't take what California doing for something real it's a semi-fascist state with so many regulations I don't know how they could put in such an infrastructure. The Auto Co.'s could look on You Tube and find many ideas for economical engines that could burn gasoline at more completely. There is a limit to what can be done with the current design of the internal combustion engine. Retooling for some of the US companies could be very costly. You would need deep pocket entrepreneurs to produce a competitive alternate engine vehicle.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 6 months ago
    When some very big and rich corporation, or billionaire is willing to set up hydrogen fueling stations all across the country and further, is willing to lose money on them for the next 10 years or so, I will then believe wholeheartedly in the viability of hydrogen cars. Who knows? In the words of the incomparable Judy Tenuta, "It could happen."
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 10 years, 6 months ago
    If the government would not have taken over GM we would have had them two years ago and have them in full production this fall from General Motor. however Government Motors thought it would be more effective to can the Hydrogen Fuel Cell program GM had pilots running in two areas on (ya way back when they took it over) and put all the R&D into the electric car.

    Once again this shows just how stupid our federal government is when it comes to running or investing in a business.

    More than likely when I replace my car next (at least 5 years out from that) I will be picking up a Hydrogen Fuel Cell car, which means a Hyundai or Honda. I had a Toyota once and that will never happen again.
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  • Posted by DaveM49 10 years, 6 months ago
    I suppose if you have your own charging station and never exceeded the range of the vehicle....fine. Failing that there are going to have to be a lot of new filling stations before one can use a hydrogen-fueled car for long trips. One possible exception: have an on-board electrolysis/charging unit that plugs in. Though I don't know how much hydrogen anything small enough to be carried on board would generate.
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