Galt's Gulch

Will Solar Panels Survive an EMP? - Backdoor Survival

Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 10 months ago to Technology
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Interesting.

The book mentioned, One Second After, is a must read in my opinion. It will scare the pants off you too.
SOURCE URL: http://www.backdoorsurvival.com/will-solar-panels-survive-emp/

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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 10 months ago
    The answer is unquestionably NO! Solar panel electronics are all solid state, and extremely vulnerable to high energy pulses. <br /><br />As an engineer dealing with space and ground electronics, I studied the few sets of real data we have on nuclear weapon-caused EMP. There were two nuclear weapons tests over the Pacific during the 1960s, and that was the first time we even recognized the EMP effect. Ironically, we only have the information from the older sets of instruments, because all of the then-new transistor electronics were fried from the EMP generated, and even the Hawaiian power grid had damage. <br /><br />The only other data we have is from old Soviet records of a single similar test they performed over Siberia. They used larger yield weapons in their testing, so even the non solid state electronic equipment was damaged. In fact, the EMP was strong enough to fry a high voltage buried power line. <br /><br />The only good news is that the EMP effect takes place only within a limited range of the weapon, and is directly proportional to the yield of that weapon. Kiloton-range weapons likely to be used by a "rogue" nation like Iran or North Korea will only affect electronics within a few hundred kilometers of the burst, which must take place at a precise altitude. It would take several large megaton-yield weapons, precisely placed, to have a catastrophic effect on our national power grid. <br /><br />If we dropped the idiot notion of a completely interlocked national power grid, and pursued distributed power (with buried high voltage DC distribution lines) more aggressively, EMP wouldn't be the danger it presents today. <br /><br />Electronics can be shielded from EMP effects, but such measures are now limited to a few military space projects. Since even local high voltage events like lightning strikes can cause the same effects, it might be worth the effort to start selling shielded electronic gear and power systems to the survivalist community (preppers).
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 10 months ago
      Dr. Zarkov, I would like to hear your take on Lightsquared. I think that they have come up with a portable EMP device, but this is not really my area. If so, this could be the modern equivalent of Project X.
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    • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
      Actually, there are three major power grids in America. The East grid, the West grid and the Texas grid. When Y2K was coming up, and no one knew what might fail, the folks in Texas were quite ready to disconnect from the other two grids. Given the sort of cascade failure the other grids have seen, that might not be a bad idea in any case. <br /><br />The advantage of interconnected "big" grids is that excess power can be bought and sold and generation can take place on large scales (and at lower prices). The disadvantage is interconnected vulnerabilities. <br /><br />Even solar panels connected to the grid create problems. Imagine supplying power to 1000 solar-equipped homes. A bunch of clouds blow in and the demand on the power production station spikes. The clouds clear out and demand crashes. It's not an issue when a small percentage of the grid has a solar component, but when it gets beyond a certain percentage, it plays hell with the main power plant. Those generators are BIG. The turbines can be 30-feet across or more, they're spinning at 3600 rpm and tolerances are so tight that they are compelled to use some of the purest water in the world to generate steam (because if there were any dissolved minerals they'd come out in the turbine and then you have big problems.) As you can imagine, a turbine that size does NOT spin up and down as fast as clouds may blow through an area. So the technical issues are not trivial.
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 10 months ago
        Any individual or company that decides to "go solar" should invest in short-term storage systems, like batteries. That helps even out the demand (the cloud cover issue), as well as retain benefit for night use. <br /><br />Wind power has a similar issue. Sometimes the wind either: stops blowing; or blows too hard. Without storage or smaller, more widely distributed backup generators, the problem you address is a headache there also. <br /><br />The big push for electric vehicles presents a similar problem, in the surge in demand as many vehicles get plugged in to recharge at night. On the one hand, it makes better use of the backup generators, creating more revenue, but on the other, many local neighborhood grids aren't equipped with transformer systems that can handle the demand. <br /><br />None of these idyllic scenarios for a renewable power society will be as simple as many think.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 10 months ago
          Converting the extra energy into hydrogen and storing in metal hydrides is a very reasonable alternative. That used to be my field ten to twenty years ago.
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 10 months ago
        Don't forget that generated power has to go somewhere as well... Once its spun up it's not as easy to dump that extra generated power. People decry Nuclear power, but it does gove a consistant baseline to where the more flexible options (wind or natgas, for example) can be used for fine adjustments to the grid. <br /><br />
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    • Posted by g4lt 10 years, 10 months ago
      wouldn't "hardening" solar panels also shade them from the sun?
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 10 months ago
        The silicon cells can deal with EMP. It's the electronics that collects, controls, and distributes the power generated that are vulnerable. The good news is that shielding doesn't reduce the efficiency, but the bad news is that it does increase the system cost.
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  • Posted by MiJo 10 years, 10 months ago
    1. You agree with Bambi that EMPs need not have a nuclear origin. Good. We do not have to hash that anymore. <br />2. The damage from EMPs is from induced overvoltage conditions. EMPs do not induce voltages in semiconductors. If the leads are not connected then there is no place for current to flow. Recall Kirchoff's Current Law. Open circuit. No current flow. No damage to the semiconductor. You seem to be saying that if you add other things to the solar cell and make a closed circuit it can become vulnerable. That is correct. It is also a straw man in this context. <br />3. I am not expert on the effect of ionizing radiation on humans but I think Bambi is probably correct that any radiation strong enough to knock out semiconductors is likely to kill humans. Whether correct or not, the effect of EMP is the topic but you seem to be set on arguing about the ionizing radiation which is not the topic from the nuclear bomb that is also not the topic. <br /><br />Why?
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    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
      2. Most electronic circuits are grounded even if they are disconnected from the power source, which means they act like antennas. This is in fact how an EMP induces currents in power lines. This means you have transient current flow and induced voltages, because any grounded wire can act as an antenna. Remember antenna theory and transmission lines. As a result, these induced voltages can definitely effect the electronics. <br /><br />3. True, but if you want to talk about the practical side, any EMP that is close enough to take out the electronics in your solar panel (not connected to the grid) would mean that you would likely need to be in a shelter to survive. The most likely way an EMP will take out your solar panel is for it to be connected to the electrical grid and the voltage spike to come from the power lines.
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      • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
        2. <br />Can't you read and understand ANYTHING? <br />Earlier Post ==>> "If they're part of an OPEN circuit (sitting in a box under your bed), odds are much, much lower (practically zero) they'll be affected." <br /><br />Where's the damned "antenna"? <br /><br />You keep coming up with all sorts of add on excuses to try to justify your failure to read and comprehend. <br /><br />3. Wait. You're in a SHELTER!?? Is that because whoever set off the nuclear BOMB called ahead and said, "Please be in your shelter by noon today. The bomb goes off at 12:05"??? <br /><br />Criminey. First you assert there's no such thing as an open circuit with semiconductors - which is patently false. Then you say that ionizing radiation can destroy semiconductors - which it can, but which is TOTALLY irrelevant because if the blast is that close, you're not likely to be around to use the solar panels, THEN you make up something about how disconnected solar panels would still be grounded (really? In a box? Under your bed?) and act like an antenna - which is true IF you've grounded them - which would be pretty asinine. I mean, why would anyone connect JUST the ground? And now people are getting notification to go into their shelter before the nuclear attack? Really? <br /><br />Yeah, EMP could cause a surge - but if your solar system is not connected to the grid, it's IRRELEVANT. "This is your friendly neighborhood terrorist reminding you of today's nuclear attack." <br /><br />You seem to have the idea that a nuclear blast will bring ionizing radiation and EMP, or neither. Of course, that's pure ignorance. You think the military nuked Hawaii with ionizing radiation in 1962? Or you think the reports of EMP effect are false? <br /><br />Bah! <br /><br />You're clueless! <br />
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        • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
          Bambi you are RUDE and IGNORANT. You know nothing about electromagnetics and antennas. An EMP pulse is a large impulse of electric and magnetic energy. Kirkoff’s law states that the electric field E in a ‘perfect’ conductor is always zero, 0. When an impulse of electric energy impinges on a ‘perfect’ conductor the electrons immediately rearrange (small current) themselves to cancel out the field and this results in a reflected wave. But real conductors such as copper and aluminum are not perfect conductors as a result, the electrons do not immediately rearrange themselves and this results in the build up off charges (i.e., voltage difference for Bambi). To see this in action take a look at the YouTube videos below. <br /><br />Bambi here is some reading for you so you can learn something about antennas and electromagnetics. <br />Here is a paper on Antenna theory that is relevant. <a href="http://wirelessu.org/uploads/units/2008/08/12/39/5Anten_theor_basics.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://wirelessu.org/uploads/units/2008/...</a>. Pay particular attention to Slides 4, 5 and 21. <br /><br />This paper explains why charge builds up at boundary interfaces, including between metal and air. <a href="http://www.antenna-theory.com/tutorial/electromagnetics/electric-field-boundary-conditions.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.antenna-theory.com/tutorial/e...</a><br /><br /><br /><br />These videos are instructive for showing what will happen to metal if struck by an EMP <br />Aluminum foil in Microwave <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTMOk" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTM...</a><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBdy4" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBd...</a><br />Bambi, note that the aluminum is not connected to anything – IT IS AN OPEN CIRCUIT, but those sparks are the result voltage differences. NOW QUIT PROVING YOUR IGNORANCE. <br /><br /><br />This video gives you a good idea of how an EMP will affect semiconductor circuits. <br />Here is a DVD in a microwave <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5i8jgk1H6I" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5i8jgk1H...</a><br />
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          • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
            With regard to antennae, you're right. I have limited knowledge. But you were the one that came up with the "grounded" solar array. How is an solar panel in a box under your bed "grounded"? Oh, don't bother. You never even try to answer the challenges to your errors. You just wave your (phony?) degrees around and claim I don't know what I'm saying. But the truth is, you rarely make a technical contribution and despite the fact that you are often wrong, you never address it. <br /><br />So now it's not ionizing radiation. Instead, it's kilowatt per square foot EM fields? <br /><br />Wouldn't that mean that the A-bomb you're fabricated would have to be on your block? (/sarcasm). <br /><br />
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            • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
              Bam, there were no errors. I was not trying to give a complete lecture to people who do not understand EM theory. People who understand EM, know that any wire can act as an antenna, especially for an EM pulse. Your right, the array does not need to be grounded (however see articles on crystal radio sets) , but that was never my point, it was to help you understand there could be induced current flow and voltages. <br /><br />Ionizing radiation still occurs in Nuclear EMP, which is the only kind of EMP worth worrying about with respect to solar panels. But I believe you are right that the distance of this EM radiation is less than other waves. This would be consistent with the general propagation of EM waves, where longer wavelengths are able to deffract (and reflect) around objects more easily than shorter wavelengths. <br /><br />The situation is clearly very fact specific. DrZ is the only one on here who has probably studied the specific circumstances. I read a book on the effects of Nuclear Weapons and the distance at which different effects occurred, but nothing about EMP. Near the blast zone, it didn't matter what you did, but at farther distances small things like the terrain could make all the difference between you and your neighbors. I am not a survivalist expert either. My belief, not fact, is that if your solar panel is destroyed by an EMP you probably are going to have much bigger problems. That said my reading led me to believe that Churchill and others have overstated the damage of Nukes, which maybe kept countries from using them. Certainly, Carl Sagan's nuclear winter made about as much sense as AGW (Global Warming). Calculating likely risks, I think the march of socialism is a much bigger concern than EMPs. <br /><br />Can we put this to bed now?
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              • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
                I guess the question comes down to whether the damage done to a semiconductor is a result of current flow or the application of a voltage with no current flow. <br /><br />Picture a voltage source connected to a diode with one voltage source lead and one diode lead disconnected. Now vary that voltage. The voltage source represents the voltage from an EMP into an OPEN circuit, you're saying the diode would be damaged (because of the voltage), I'm saying it would not (because there's no current flow). <br /><br />In fact, if you think about it, all the the connecting wires between the individual cells would be voltage sources separated by diodes. If there's NO CIRCUIT, all of these voltages represent parts of a zero-current OPEN circuit. Does voltage alone damage the semiconductors? I don't think so. You apparently do. <br /><br />Now once you connect the solar panel for use, then it forms a circuit and current can flow. At that point it becomes susceptible to damage. The next question is, how susceptible. As I said, I don't know much about antennae, but EMP is mostly long-wave EMR, and I would think that the most vulnerable "antenna" would be the connection from the solar panel to whatever it's driving. If you use shielded cable, and shield the load, then you get back to relatively short wavelengths - the 6" of wire between cells.
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                • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
                  See These videos are instructive for showing what will happen to metal if struck by an EMP <br />Aluminum foil in Microwave <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTM" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcUsutyTM...</a>... <br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBd" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx7IZ4WBd...</a>... <br />Read more at <a href="http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/591df78/will-solar-panels-survive-an-emp-backdoor-survival~q4vdm6b2xnef3p7y73xgwccyl4#5ZRAQwCpei0gKPUE.99" rel="nofollow">http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/59...</a>
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 10 months ago
    If the grid goes down there will be no stopping people from burning wood. Return of the primitive. The biggest problem will be the marauding hordes. You could be living like the Omega man.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 10 months ago
      Susanne's Rule of Bug-out locations: If you a considerably far and difficult distance from the hoardes at your front, with nothing worth getting to at your back, then the likelihood of them wandering up your way to try their hand at emulating steel targets is somewhat diminished...
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      • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 10 months ago
        For awhile anyway.
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        • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 10 months ago
          If you were a looter-type personality, had limited resources, and knew that in one direction there were houses belonging to people more well off than you, and in another a desolate wilderness, woods, or forest, with nothing but logging roads, dark forests, and maybe the occasional hunting cabin every few miles, in an area known for conservative values, survival instincts, and no predisposition to fear firearms, ... where would you rather go loot? <br /><br />By the time the trouble came out as far as you on a gamble they *might find something* they would be weakened by lack of food, possibly by being on foot for some hundred plusmile trek to the unknown, if something closer to their homes didn't pick them off first. And then they'd be going into a land of strangers... strangers wary of those people coming out from the cities... <br /><br />I could be wrong, but then again, knowing that as someone has less (or no) food and water, they will get weaker the further they travel. It's why the Bug Out bag is generally not a good idea - tho people can last a little while on this "enforced campout", not many people really *can* live off the land, out of a pack, and stay healthy and retain their body mass and strength. It's why "bugging in" is usually a better option. <br />
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 10 months ago
    Solar is silicon based (or similar) which would likely be damaged as well. Wind may be OK but for the windings in the genset and the voltage speed controllers. My thought would be that you could build your own steam or (if you're lucky enough to have a *lot* of fuel) hand-startable diesel power plant. <br /><br />What concerns me - most of the backup generators in place rely on microciruitry for initiation/ignition/control/power regulation, so even that fancy genset you put in may be moot... <br /><br />Thoughts turn to building a faraday cage around such appliances, so they have a chance of surviving...
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    • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 10 months ago
      Problem with a Faraday cage is that in order for it to provide complete protection, you can't run anything into or out of it - the component has to be completely isolated! <br /><br />Other problem is that it has to have a good ground - usually an 8 foot long 1" copper spike hammered into the ground until only about 6" is showing. Then you have to connect your ground strap from the Cage to the ground.
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      • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
        That bit about it having to be grounded doesn't sound right. Are you sure? I'm thinking in terms of a full cage. <br /><br />As for the "in or out" - yeah, that's pretty much the case for 360-degree coverage. But if you only need coverage for a given direction, couldn't you devise a Faraday "shield" (which WOULD have to be grounded)?? <br /><br />I'm thinking there are actually two different principles in play.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 10 months ago
          If you don't ground it, the shield becomes a big capacitor that will discharge when something comes in contact with the cage - like you. <br /><br />And EM waves go right around corners. Check out diffraction patterns.
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    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 10 months ago
      WOW! Gensets and faraday cages and windings and speed controllers all in one post. Well done! <br /><br />Engineer porn!
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 10 months ago
        ;-) Thank you! (--blush--) Always thinking about possible future needs... <br /><br />Don't get me started, tho, or I'll carry on about buzz coils, flywheels containing an AC magneto, er, 'generator", and an ignition timed off the pulses of said magneto. 20 HP, 15 million units, put the world on wheels and absolutely confounds 99 44/100ths % of most of today's "automotive service technicians"... <br /><br />Or perhaps hot-tube ignition, where one can operate a gasoline Internal Combustion engine cycle without electricity... if it worked (albeit negligably compared to today) in the late 19th century, no reason it couldn't be adapted to use in a non-electric grid down situation... <br /><br />Shall we talk steam without the "punk" part? I remember talk of a modern steam auto, but for some reason no one remembers the work of Abner Doble when designing one... (and if you adapr the aforementioned hot tube to light the boiler stack, with a mechanical linkage to maintain pressure and temperature at the boiler head...) <br /><br />Um... did it get warm in here all of the sudden? OK, I'll let you catch your breath while I go take a cold shower... --giggles--
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    • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
      Most generators are just a big magnet rotating inside some sort of coil… coil? coil!!??? <br /><br />Coils are the #1 source of high voltage during an EMP.
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 10 years, 10 months ago
    My guess is that the electronics the solar panels are attached to will be fried. Realistically, we will likely have more to worry about than loss of electric gizmos if a nuke is set off high in the atmosphere. Our military set off a nuke once in a high-atmospheric test, but it was over the open ocean.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
    Honestly no one knows what will or will not survive in an EMP. The popular thought in the military is that Solid State electronics are all that will survive, but no one has ever detonated 200 miles up in order to test it, so it is all best guess using simulators. <br /><br />A lot of people look towards generators, solar, etc as possible answers to maintaining something close to their current standard of living after something like an EMP. Personally I think this is a bad idea. The noise from generators, light from electric power, smell of cooking food, basically anything that shows people you are living better than anyone else will make a person a target for hordes of other people looking to take what you have. I think the people that will survive a trip back to pre-society are those that can adapt the quickest.
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
    So that's all you've got? <br /><br />Nyah! Nyah! Nyah! ??? <br /><br />I leave it to those more knowledgeable than yourself (which should be just about everyone) to determine that you don't have a clue. <br /><br />I see your "irrelevance" style of debate is still unchanged.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
    As described in the article, it is very easy to protect any electronics from an EMP burst - just place them in a Faraday cage. This is something as simple as a metal can, wire cage, etc., just make sure that it completely surrounds the electronics and is grounded. The trick comes in getting everything inside the cage prior to the EMP pulse. Unless you want to build everything inside a metal cage, you will need to put your valuable electronics inside just before the pulse occurs. <br /><br />This is a side benefit from building a house with insulated concrete forms - the concrete is reinforced with steel rebar, so basically the whole house is a faraday cage - since I used steel trusses for the floor joists as well. The garage doors are steel as well, so any EMP should pass without incident.
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    • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
      Did you put a ferrous mesh in the walls? I think in most cases, steel rebar is too widely spaced to be an effective shield. As a thought experiment, imagine a series of grounded metal poles spaced 100 feet apart. No one would argue that's effective protection for electronics. <br /><br />Now start moving the poles together. At what point do they begin to provide "protection"? 50 feet? 10 feet? 1 foot? 1 inch? I'm reasonably certain that the distance is related to the wavelength of the pulse you're trying to block - but I don't know whether the spacing needs to be 1 wavelength, 1/2, 1/4 - or if the level of protection just increases until you reach zero spacing. <br /><br />Assuming rebar spaced at 1-foot intervals, my gut tells me that it would be ineffective against signals with wavelengths of less than half that value - which would be in the 150MHz range. <br /><br />Of course, there are more variables: What's the shape of the EMP, the power, the distance?
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
        You're probably correct. It wasn't constructed specifically to protect from EMP. They're about a foot apart vertically and 3 ft horizontally.
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  • Posted by TexanSolar 10 years, 10 months ago
    DrZarkov99 - The solar cells themselves would not be affected. The electronics of a solar installation can be easily protected. The intensity of the EMT burst is not directly proportional to the yield, it is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the blast. As an Engineer, you should know that. <br /><br />I do agree that a completely interlocked national power grid is " an idiot notion" <br /><br />barwick11 and the ObjectiveAanalyst are correct. When the grid goes down there will be chaos in the cities. There will not only be no electricity, but there will also be no water, no food, no sewage treatment, and no gasoline. A successful prepper must be able to provide all of these things for himself. He must also be able to protect his homestead from the "marauding hoardes" who did not prepare and are starving. <br />A man will do anything to feed his family. <br /><br />j_IR1776wg- Socialism has already detroyed America. <br /><br />I have designed an economical Micro-Grid ( solar) energy and water system that will enable people to live comfortably and economically Off-Grid. But one must also be able to also grow his own food. <br />I recommend that we ( those of us who would like to survive ) establish Off-Grid Communities. There will be some safety in numbers. <br /><br />If any of you are interested in establishing Off-Grid self-sustaining communities, I can help. <br /><br />Brad Snipes <br />Principal Engineer <br />Micro-Grids of Texas
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    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
      I don't think DrZ was unaware of the r-squared losses.
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      • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 10 months ago
        Thank you, and yes, I'm fully aware of the inverse-square rule of distance, which is why the effect of a small nuclear device is limited in range. <br /><br />The reason I'm opposed to a totally interlocked national grid is primarily one of security. If an enemy was able to slip a "STUX" style computer virus into such a grid, a national blackout could result. <br /><br />There's also a bit of deception about "economies of scale" when it comes to big generator systems. As BambiB points out, big systems are expensive, so you want them to run steadily and constantly. Also, if you build these things, of course you want the utilities to buy the Cadillac rather than the Smart. There's also the headache, with an AC distribution system, of keeping everything in synch (which is why long range high voltage distribution has gone DC). <br /><br />Actually, I'd like to see a migration of our society to a more generally distributed one in all senses of the word. Agenda 21 proposes just the opposite, corralling the human population in high density centers under the claim that this will be more efficient and leave more of the planet pristine. <br /><br />If he hasn't already, Brad (TexanSolar) should look into the closed-loop survival systems that rely on a symbiotic fish and plant cycle to provide a source of protein and vegetable foods indefinitely. I think that would be a great fit to his Micro-Grid.
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
    One of the easiest ways to visualize an EMP is to think of how a transformer works. Consider a transformer driven by standard house current. As the voltage rises, so does the current, and with the increase in current, the associated magnetic field. Any time you have current flow, you have an associated magnetic field. When the field collapses, it induces a current in a second set of windings. The ratio of the number of turns in the primary to the number in the secondary determines how much the voltage "steps up" or "steps down". <br /><br />The effect of an EMP is like a very, very strong magnetic field in a transformer primary. The extent to which the "secondary" (your electronic devices) is affected varies with the size of the pulse and generally as the square of the distance from the source. Note that generally, an OPEN circuit will be unaffected, since no current flows, but in any CLOSED circuit, a voltage will be induced and current will try to flow. If the voltage exceeds rated values for various components, they can be damaged, so it's possible for two people in the same place to have different experiences with their equipment depending on how vulnerable are particular devices. <br /><br />So I guess the short answer is, if your solar cells are part of a CLOSED circuit, then they're subject to a big voltage being applied to them. I don't know enough about solar cells to know "what happens" if you hit one with a high voltage, but it's probably not good. If they're part of an OPEN circuit (sitting in a box under your bed), odds are much, much lower (practically zero) they'll be affected. <br /><br />Incidentally, an atomic blast is not required to generate an EMP. There are EMP weapons that essentially fire a magnetic projectile through the bore of a coli. The strength of the magnetic field, the number of turns on the coil and the speed at which the magnet goes through the coil all affect the strength of the pulse. As the speed "goes to infinity" (neglecting relativity) the induced voltage approaches a doublet - that is, back-to-back impulses (infinite magnitude) with reversed polarity in zero time. Yeah, I know. Sort of hard to visualize. Of course, that isn't attainable, but it's useful for describing how the behavior changes with changes in magnetic field, velocity and coil count. <br /><br />I've read of suitcase-size EMP generators capable of taking out every computer in an office building. A conventional aircraft bomb-sized device might take out a medium-sized city.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
      A semiconductor device is never truly an open circuit in the sense of physically disconnected. All semiconductor devices have leakage currents.
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      • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
        Actually, a semiconductor may definitely be an open circuit in the sense of "physically disconnected"… when it's physically disconnected! "Physically disconnected" is precisely what I had in mind. That is what "open circuit" means. I believe I already addressed the case where a device in a CLOSED circuit has its rated voltage exceeded… oh look! There it is! <br />"If the voltage exceeds rated values for various components, they can be damaged," That included semiconductors in closed circuits. The reference to a solar panel "in a box under your bed" was intended to make it clear that I was referring to units that were physically disconnected. <br /><br />My bet is that if you have a box full of diodes, transistors, and other discreet components, subjected them to a pulse, they'd be unaffected. As soon as you put them into a circuit where they form a physical "loop", they become vulnerable. Even a coil would be unaffected so long as the induced voltage is not great enough to span the air gap between the two leads or break down the insulation in the winding.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
          A semiconductor device that is not physically connected to a voltage source in an EMP situation is still connected to other conductors that will generate a current and voltage in an EMP. So there is no such thing as a closed circuit for a solid state device. <br /><br />Even with physically disconnected electrical devices the gap voltage has to be less than generated by an EMP, which may not be the case in which case the devices may be fried in that circuit. Perhaps you should learn a little physics before you comment.
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          • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
            Your first sentence is gibberish (at best ambiguous, but more likely incorrect). Your second sentence is simply wrong. <br /><br />As for the second paragraph, did you miss the "Even a coil would be unaffected so long as the induced voltage is not great enough to span the air gap between the two leads or break down the insulation in the winding."? Or did you just not understand it? <br /><br />Maybe you have a better grasp of physics than you are displaying, but you apparently lack the ability to read and comprehend, write cogently or apply sufficient rigor when discussing physics. The standards at the U Texas physics department must be lower than I thought.
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            • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
              Your lack of knowledge of how semiconductor circuits are created is amazing. Your lack of knowledge of physics is terrifying, but you sure are good at spewing out vitriol
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            • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
              Bam, your knowledge of physics is lacking. A semiconductor device can not only be affected by the induced voltage and current, but the ionizing radiation can destroy the device without any connected conductors.
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              • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
                Once again you fail the "read and comprehend" test. <br /><br />But this time it's probably intentional. <br /><br />When I demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about, you change the subject! There's no "ionizing radiation" in an EMP any more than there's ionizing radiation in a NMR scanner. <br /><br />I take back what I said about you maybe having a better graph of physics than you are displaying. What I want to know is who you bribed for your degree? (Or does U Texas just have a "no fail" policy in their physics department?)
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                • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
                  There is definitely ionizing radiation in an Nuclear EMP. The highest frequencies are present in Nuclear EMP (NEMP) bursts. These continue up into the optical and ionizing ranges. <br />
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                  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
                    Who said anything about nuclear? The subject under discussion is the effect of EMP. <br /><br />Clearly a nuclear detonation produces ionizing radiation, and that ionizing radiation can produce an EMP - but the EMP itself does not damage semiconductor material outside of a circuit and the presence of an EMP does not imply a nuclear detonation. <br /><br />Really, Dale. Work on that "read and comprehend" thing. (Your logic needs work too.) I hope for your sake that none of your potential clients are witnessing this breakdown in your reasoning skills. Could make for a lean Summer.
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                    • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
                      Most EMP scenarios are created by a nuclear warhead. DrZ's first comment was about how nuclear weapons create an EMP. Perhaps you should learn to read - and learn a little more about EMPs.
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                      • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
                        And yet: <br />1) The discussion was not about nuclear weapons, <br />2) It was about EMPs. <br />3) And, oh yeah, if ionizing radiation is going to fry your semiconductors, then you've got bigger problems than whether your solar cells will survive. <br /><br />Your style grows tiresome. The pattern repeats seemingly without end. You make an incorrect statement. I point out your error. You abandon the statement and come up with another incorrect (or irrelevant) statement. I demonstrate you are once again incorrect, or the statement is irrelevant. You abandon the statement and come up with yet another… You're like a blocked sewage pipe… just when you think you've got it cleared up, another load of crap bubbles back up. <br /><br />In short, you're wrong again, and again, and again. There's no defense for your errors, so you make none. I can appreciate that. It's better than someone who is wrong and insists they're right. But why the constant stream of additional error/irrelevance? Are you even making any effort to post correct/relevant information? (It seems not.) <br /><br />EMPs are actually pretty simple. The only reason that I'd need to learn more than I already know is if I wanted to build an EMP device and quantify its effect for design.
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                        • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
                          EMPs are created by NUCLEAR WEAPONS - quite proving you ignorance.
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                          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
                            While a nuclear weapon does indeed create an EMP, that is not the only way that it can be created. A large coil with a powerful enough magnet run through it fast enough can do the same thing.
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                            • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
                              Right, Robbie. Dale doesn't seem to understand that. He allegedly has a Masters in Physics from U Texas, but clearly he's either forgotten most of what he learned, or UT has incredibly lax standards for awarding the degree. A third possibility is that he has no such degree and has been forging his bona fides. Whatever the case, I'd expect anyone with a degree in physics to have a better handle on the issue of EMP than poor Dale. <br /><br />His comment that ionizing radiation can kill semiconductors, while correct, only points out that he's clueless. Any ionizing radiation strong enough to do that would almost certainly kill the PEOPLE who would want to use the semiconductors. And aside from the fact that ionizing radiation can create an EMP, it's completely irrelevant to the conversation.
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                          • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
                            Again, your logic sucks. <br /><br />Milk comes from cows. <br /><br />By your reasoning, it can't come from goats and if we're talking about milk, we MUST talk about cows.
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                            • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
                              You don't have the faintest idea what logic is, The reality is that non-nuclear EMP devices are very short range and cannot take out the power grid and would not be aimed at your solar panel, so are basically irrelevant to this discussion. <br /><br />From Wikipedia <br />"The range of NNEMP weapons (non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse bombs) is much less than nuclear EMP. Nearly all NNEMP devices used as weapons require chemical explosives as their initial energy source, producing only 10−6 (one millionth) the energy of nuclear explosives of similar weight.[4"
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                              • Posted by MiJo 10 years, 10 months ago
                                I've been following this thread and while Bambi's postings have been somewhat abrasive she is undoubtedly more correct than dbhalling. (I hold Masters in both EE and Physics) <br />The latter keeps posting about Bambi's lack of knowledge which is surprising because Bambi is basically correct in her technical statements. It also seems to be true that what dbhalling does is "make an incorrect statement... abandon the statement and come up with another incorrect (or irrelevant) statement". He then claims that Bambi is ignorant. <br />In the name of civility, Bambi, could you be a little less caustic? And dbhalling, could you at least try to address the subject at hand, post something relevant and stop saying that Bambi doesn't know anything even though she's demonstrated more technical knowledge than you?
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                                • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 10 months ago
                                  1. This post is about whether solar panels will survive an EMP pulse. The very first comment talks about EMP pulses being created by nuclear weapons. In fact, non-nuclear EMP pulses are small and targeted so they are irrelevant to solar panels. <br /><br />2. Solar panels are made of solid state devices. If they are photovoltaic then the collection device is solid state as is the inverter and probably other parts. Solid state devices are never off in the sense of physically disconnected. If power is on then they have leakage currents and they are small which makes them more vulnerable to EMPs. <br /><br />3. If a solid state is not connected to power they are connected to various electrical conductors, which will act as an antenna allowing voltage and current to build across the solid state device. Even without this the only EMP that matters here is a nuclear one and then you do have ionizing radiation that will also damage solid state devices. <br /><br />This all relevant to the discussion and technically correct and I have a MS in Physics and BSEE <br />
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    • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 10 months ago
      Thank you, BambiB. <br />Since the only thing it is crucial to keep going is the refrigerator, it is then plausible to keep the emergency solar power kit somewhere aside and take it out for use as necessary. <br /><br />Jan
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 10 months ago
        I had an off the wall thought... regarding refrigeration. And knowing it is, actually, a very vital part of a survival situation (especially if you happen to be insulin dependent)... <br /><br />Using a ammonia-H2 Refrigeration unit (think Dometic or other propane fridges) convert the propane burner to a candle. It would take some futzing around, and you may have to make a mechanical thermocouple to adjust the proximity of the candle to the coil (temperature control) depending on internal refrigerator temp, but that would give you a truly EMP-proof fridge that (as long as there are bees, and as such, beeswax candles) would survuve even a lack of available propane...
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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 10 months ago
    DrZ and TexanSolar both seem to know what they are talking about, but disagree. I have a faint recollection that EMP's effecting operational electronics but not electronics systems that were 'off' at the time of the burst. Is this so? If so, does it mean that if you have a solar cell backup (off) that you will be able to use it post-EMP? <br /><br />Jan
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    • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
      Well… sort of. <br /><br />The EMP induces a voltage in conductive metal - but you can have high voltage with no current flow. No current flow, no damage. <br /><br />Suppose you have a piece of wire in your hand when the pulse hits. If it's just a straight piece of wire, the voltage will be induced, but unless the voltage is great enough to span the air gap between the two ends (typically on the order of a million volts per inch) nothing happens. Connect the two ends of the wire together, and then the pulse hits, the same voltage is induced, but now there's a closed path, current flows and all sorts of exciting things can happen. The wire can heat up (burst into flames? Turn white hot? Melt? Have the insulation blown off?) It also produces its own magnetic field, so it can be attracted to ferrous metals or interact with other magnetic fields. Of course, the degree of response will depend on a number of variables - chiefly distance to the pulse and strength of the pulse and the possibilities I've described are pretty extreme (and unlikely). <br /><br />So the way to think about it is this: Look at every piece of metal in your system. If you can trace a continuous conductive path to form a loop, then the devices within the loop are at risk. <br /><br />If there are small breaks in the loop, the elements may still be at risk, because high voltages can jump an air gap (think of the spark in a spark plug - where the voltage is typically on the order of 50000 volts). The solar cell itself wouldn't be affected directly by an EMP, but if it's part of a circuit, it's possible induced voltages could damage it. <br /><br />The most vulnerable elements are likely to be high density ICs (like microprocessors) that have lots of connections and very little tolerance for over voltage conditions and anything that contains a coil due to the fact that coils will "capture" a greater portion of the pulse and generate a higher voltage. <br /><br />Others have mentioned "Gaussian Cages" which is basically a metal cage that allows the effects of the pulse to "flow around" a space. Older computers with metal cases and even some laptops (MacBooks with aluminum shells) may have some resistance to EMP - but you also have to consider every wire going into the computer for the possibility of an induced high voltage. I only mention this because an EMP is likely to produce some rather strange results… with some equipment surviving, and other equipment failing based on such vagaries as whether a laptop was closed or open at the time of the pulse.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 10 months ago
    The solar cells, themselves, may or may not survive. However, there is a little silicone diode on each panel, that will likely get taken out. <br />Keep a couple of hundred watts of solar panels, and spare diodes stashed in a faraday cage, and you should be fine. But, there is likely no sure way for 100% protecting any panels you have in active use. Assume those will be toast.
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  • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
    If an EMP hits and you're prepared, you better have enough guns and ammunition to defend youself from the masses of idiots who will think it's their right to come and take your stuff. <br /><br />Your solar panel will be the least of your worries. <br /><br />That said, will it survive, I don't know, but an in-home LENR fusion device would probably survive just fine :)
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    • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
      Sure, it will survive… and do nothing, just like BEFORE the EMP! ;-)
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      • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
        You've never seen the demonstrations of net power fusion systems? <br /><a href="http://www.e-catworld.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.e-catworld.com/</a>
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        • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
          I've never seen a demonstration of a COLD FUSION generator (though I've seen videos of dog-and-pony shows with lots of hand-waving and gibberish purporting to be such). <br /><br />It's been 25 years since cold fusion was discredited… but here's the acid test: Where can one buy a commercially- available LENR system that will power even so much as a toaster? Because if such units exist, and they work, they'd be selling in huge numbers. I'm not seeing them on <a href="http://Amazon.com" rel="nofollow">Amazon.com</a>
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          • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
            Well read the site I sent you. A team from MIT is selling demonstration NANORs, I'm on the list, they just announced it a few weeks ago. <br /><br />Andrea Rossi has demonstrated his technology to multiple independent third parties, who have all concluded there is no known conventional reaction that can produce that amount of input vs output energy. <br /><br />Industrial Heat just spent some $10M (I forget the number) to purchase the US rights for Rossi's work. <br /><br />The process itself is being investigated by numerous people, Rossi's and the MIT team's seem to be the most advanced. MIT is more open with theirs than Rossi is, but, let's be honest. If you had something like a fusion energy production device that could be easily reproduced (read: China, et al), would YOU let just any dingbat get a hold of one before you had the production capability already lined up and ready to chunk them out?
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            • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
              <a href="http://coldfusionnow.org/first-commercial-cold-fusion-steam-heat-generator-for-sale/" rel="nofollow">http://coldfusionnow.org/first-commercia...</a><br /><br />So, they claim they have a commercial unit selling now and will have consumer units within a year. <br /><br />My bet is that if they stick to the schedule, someone will be hauled into court within two years. <br /><br />I'd love to be wrong, but if I were betting, I'd lay the money on "this is fraud".
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              • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
                We'll see. I've talked with Andra Rossi, and also with their US counterpart. I'm interested in integrating one of their systems onto a robot for something like a disaster site relief (Fukushima or something similar) where it would need to run for a very long time without people near. We'll see.
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                • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 10 months ago
                  I just have a hard time believing it's a viable technology since it's been out there for 25 years and no one has even published a peer-reviewed article on it. Think about that: The biggest single achievement in the history of the world - and for 25 years they've not been willing to provide proof? Shockley invented the transistor in the late 1940s. Within about a decade, Kilby had come up with the IC. Within 25 years of inventing the transistor, Intel was stuffing 3500 of them onto a piece of silicon the size of your fingernail and calling it the 8008 processor. <br /><br />In case you hadn't noticed, technology moves MUCH faster today. At this point, we should be able to buy LENR devices at the local Home Depot or Lowes… if not the local 7-11 or Dollar General store… if the technology works. <br /><br />OTOH, if it DOESN'T work, one would expect more "mystery". The announcement of units selling now argues against fraud - but I've seen no reports of buyers experiencing success. Have you?
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                  • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
                    Fleischman and Pons' experiments were difficult to reproduce, and some claimed they had reproduced it on a limited scale, but by that point, so many others had come out and said "these guys lied" that the typical media crap just stuck. <br /><br />And considering university research is based strongly on public opinion (take for instance the global warming crap today), nobody was going to get much funding for "cold fusion". <br /><br />Materials science is much better today, and nanoparticles and nano lattices are much more easy to come across. There's literally a couple dozen different groups all doing similar work on LENR or LANR. <br /><br />But like I said, we'll see. Nobody's paying the guy any money until they see a working unit, so what's the benefit to him to try to scam anyone? If it doesn't work, they don't pay.
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  • Posted by PeterAsher 10 years, 10 months ago
    Re Diesel <br /><br />The primary function is compression ignition. <br /><br />In the late ‘40's, we had model airplane engines with 14:1 compression ratios that ran on a fuel mix of ether and wood alcohol. <br /><br />The compression alone ignited the mix sucked in through the 2 cycle carburetor. <br />
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 10 months ago
    I'm pretty confident the inverter and charge controller will fry, and you'll probably lose the small interconnect wiring from cell to cell.
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