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"Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people." - Walter E. Williams

Posted by GaltsGulch 8 years, 8 months ago to The Gulch: General
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"How does something immoral, when done privately, become moral when it is done collectively? Furthermore, does legality establish morality? Slavery was legal; apartheid is legal; Stalinist, Nazi, and Maoist purges were legal. Clearly, the fact of legality does not justify these crimes. Legality, alone, cannot be the talisman of moral people." - Walter E. Williams


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    Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 8 months ago
    The funny thing about this is I do not think that people outside of the US have been confused that legality and morality were the same. The reason Americans can become confused is that at one time the US became the country where the laws were aligned with morality (natural rights) including limiting the law to its proper place - protecting people's rights. This did not breed contempt for the law by allowing petty dictators to extend the law to their pet moral issues (prohibition being an exception).
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 8 months ago
      Also have to make exception for the alien and sedition acts, the whiskey tax and exclusive water way rights (removed by Gibbins v. Ogden).

      While the US has been the closest thing to natural rights with law, there are many exceptions that start nearly immediately after the constitution was signed. The primary differences were people would not accept those laws, and the courts supported the peoples natural rights when they fought back against an unjust government, well the exception of forcing whiskey drinkers to pay for the revolutionary war, that seemed to be OK even then.
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      • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 8 months ago
        I agree that the US has been far from ideal, but at least when I was growing up, it was accepted, and I was taught by the public schools and the culture that it was right that laws should be aligned with morality and should be limited. Not any more......
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
    One thing that confuses people is a phrase used, when convenient, by both parties, "We are a nation of laws." And, yes, we are. But, are we a moral nation? An immoral nation can have laws up the wazoo, (and we do) and it is possible that many or even all of them are immoral.The problem is that one risks a lot when attempting to break an immoral law. In many cases, the more immoral the law, the more severe the punishment. Martyrdom may be good for the followers, but it wreaks havoc on the martyr.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 8 months ago
    True...man made rules, (or laws) punish the many, because of a few, in favor of a few or to aggrandize the man that made the rules.
    Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's the correct thing to do.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
    This is one of the reasons why I don't want lawyers drawing up the laws (no offense to the Hallings). Laws written for lawyers require lawyers to execute and prosecute and can be phrased so as to leave lots and lots of loopholes. Laws written for the common man are short, clear, and to the point, and why? Because they are based on sound principles.

    Look at the Constitution. It is an incredibly short document for all its scope. That power of implementation comes because of the principles of natural law upon which it was written - laws which are simple and intuitive. Look at the legislation we have so many problems with - from the Patriot Act to the ACA! These are monstrosities simply because they were worded in such a manner as to avoid being principles-based.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 8 months ago
      Heh heh, yeah, like the cynical joke: Q: Two bills addressing the same issue come before the legislators of our state. Which one passes? A: The one that generates the most revenue for lawyers.

      I don't recall seeing much tort reform in the ACA. John Edwards' (remember him?) $300 haircut comes to mind. Some working stiffs health care bill had that covered.

      I don't think these things happen all at once, but eventually they get entrenched. I figure if the plumbers and electricians unions were in charge it would only be a matter of time before you'd have to hire a licensed plumber to fix a leaky faucet or a licensed electrician to change a light bulb. Oh wait, actually, the town code where I live is almost that bad.

      Blarman, you left out the convoluted tax code. As blustery as Ted Cruz gets about eliminating the IRS, it'll never happen. Would anyone here really think one set of attorneys (legislators) will eliminate the income stream of another set of attorneys (tax lawyers)? Does anyone here think whole industries like H&R Block et al and their shareholders will just go away without a screaming fight in the courts? About 15 years ago I read an article that showed it cost this nation about $800 BILLION per year to comply with the tax code, which included costs from individuals to the biggest corporations. That's a lot of transaction where nothing is actually produced. I figure today it's up to a cool TRILLION. I don't think the beneficiaries of that legislated government teat are going to give it up. Eliminating the welfare state would probably be easier. Just sayin'.

      Edit: I forgot to add: As put to me by one of my lawyer friends, who was getting tired of lawyer jokes: If the people don't want lawyers drawing up the laws, then don't vote them into office. Good luck with that.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
        The tax code is definitely a real problem because of its complexities. I really appreciated Rand Paul's postcard idea - precisely because it is principles-based.

        I agree with you about the burden of government as well. I think the current economic burden of government regulations is $2 TRILLION annually. You said it well when you said "That's a lot of transaction where nothing is actually produced."
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        • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 8 months ago
          Yep, not only time and money wasted, but resources as well. Just think of all the thousands (millions?) of printouts for copies and receipts that are "needed" every year. Paper mills are grinding up our forests hundreds of acres at a time just so it can all get flushed down the tax code toilet. Sarcasm: It's beautiful thing, ain't it?
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 8 months ago
    it's like an old Venn diagram -- sometimes, what's
    legal is also moral, and sometimes not. . they are
    two different worlds, and each deserves its requisite
    respect. . morality -- reverence;;; legality -- skepticism. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 8 months ago
    I'm just waiting for "denying man-made climate change is a crime" to be legalized for our collective good.
    I'm also expecting to hear the following~
    Oh, but it's the law! What's wrong with you? You belong in jail!
    What you better do is shut up and sit down!
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