Is it a Good Idea?

Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 10 months ago to Philosophy
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"The issue – whether it’s ethanol or Obamacare or some other “program” – is whether the use of violence (threatened or actual) is morally justifiable. Debating the utilitarian merits (and deficits) of whatever it is we’re talking about sidesteps this fundamental point and by doing that, concedes the field."
SOURCE URL: http://ericpetersautos.com/2016/01/30/is-it-a-good-idea/


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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 10 months ago
    "Toothless George and his Golem?"
    Whatever this guy has to say became less relevant at that sentence.
    However, the fact that the state can impose its will upon its citizens has been the reality since Feudal times. And what is behind that imposition is the use of force. The simple fact is, the more you want freedom, the less you want government. The moment the citizenry concedes that it is the government's job to do this, that and the other that is when each of the this and that diminishes the citizen's freedom including whatever the state chooses to impose.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago
    Interesting that the founding fathers were more interested in getting out from under the king of England and his religion than giving us true freedom. While spouting that all people were created equal, Jefferson had hundreds of slaves, Mormons were run out of town for there polygamous beliefs, indigenous native Indians were run into reservations, Texas was taken from Mexico, and the South was attacked and defeated because they wanted OUT of the union.

    I say the USA was and is very inconsistent, and this philosophical inconsistency is at the heart of our decline
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    • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
      I would disagree with your assessment. The USA, starting with Jefferson (since he seems to have been singled out by many lately) has provided the greatest amount of freedom and opportunity to all classes of people, as compared to what was available at the time anywhere else. There are no realistically achieved ideals; everything must be viewed in relation to other choices. Even in the case of slavery, the slaves in America were treated much better than anywhere else in the world (at that time) and some had an opportunity to become free and to own other slaves, which some did. Perhaps due to the relatively high cost of the slaves, they were treated much better than in their native land, or by the other customers, like the Arabs.
      Mormons, you say, were run out of town - but not killed like people of other religions were in the rest of the world. And even considering the atrocities done to the Indians, those were often less barbaric than what the Indians were doing to their rival tribes.
      In any case, I don't see the relationship between the faults of Jefferson, et.al., and the national suicide that we've embarked on, which is socialism. Perhaps in the case of Russia a hundred years ago, socialism was embraced due to poverty, but in the 20-21 century America, socialism is being embraced due to gluttony.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago
        What I was getting at was that there wasnt a really consistent basis used at the start of the country, and THAT resulted in the gradual changes towards government control and socialism that have occurred over the 200+ years. There was the reliance on "god" (one nation under whatever god means). The freedoms "life, liberty, and the pursuit of "happiness"(whatever THAT was).

        Also, by the time the country actually got started functioning, there was a LOT of compromises I am sure (crony capitalist stuff)
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        • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
          Perhaps Robert Heimlich had the right idea in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" - have all laws expire after a certain time, unless they are re-instated by a 2/3 majority. May be local laws can live for a couple of years, higher level laws for 3 or 4, and Supreme Court laws for 10 years. That way, all legislation will be based on the Constitution, not on the creeping re-write of the Constitution, called case law. That alone will eliminate 90% of overlapping and often un-Constitutional laws, along with the majority of the lawyers. It will also make a citizen much freer, as there will not be thousands of little laws that every citizen is constantly breaking, thus making a little criminal out of every honest citizen.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago
            Sounds better than what we have now. I suspect something like that would be hated by the statists and they would block it big time.
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            • Posted by strugatsky 8 years, 10 months ago
              This version can happen, I believe, only following a collapse and, most probably, a civil war. If, after all that, the statists are again allowed to exist and, worst of all, to reacquire control, then the civil would have been for nothing and the spilled blood a waste.
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    • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 10 months ago
      IMHO, the phrase "all men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence, an open letter to King George III, was an assault on the divine right of kings and had nothing to do with race or gender. Therefore, Thomas Jefferson being a slave owner was not hypocritical in making such a statement. It was putting the King and his minions on notice that "We The People" in the colonies weren't going to buy into that "royalty" right to rule crap anymore. The false notion of a royal/commoner blood dichotomy sanctioned by God is so far removed from our nations consciousness in these contemporary times that such an idea is actually ridiculous and, therefore, the true meaning of Jefferson's famous phrase in its context and time is lost on most of us. The application of "all men are created equal" to races and gender came later. The American Revolution and the contributions the Founding Fathers covered a lot of ground regarding individual liberty and rights, but it didn't cover all of it all at once.

      Texans fought a war of independence from the totalitarian rule of Mexico and became an independent nation before opting to become part of the United States.

      Yep, there are inconsistencies.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 10 months ago
    It is quite simple. We are ruled by fear.
    I pay taxes due to the fear of losing what freedom I am allowed to have at this point.
    Should I, for example, refuse to pay my taxes to protest the funding of Planned Parenthood abortions, people with guns will come to put me in a cage.
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  • Posted by IamThereforeIThink 8 years, 10 months ago
    Define exactly what is The Good and then integrate this through a rational system of Ideas. Moral justifiability can then be put to practice in a complete, consistent & compatible manner (not taught or yet realized to you who remain in the outside world.
    Miss Rand completely identified this system - in theory - but left the task of integrating into a structural entity to us(-uh, me) - and I did it!
    In the days and months to come, as you begin to understand that a withdrawal from the mixed morality of the world 'as it is' is essential, you'll be relieved and more appreciative of the effort and the truth of JohnGalt's declaration that: "the looter's code must run, for once, its undisguised course."
    Until then, reassure yourselves that there is an actual motor and men on strike developing it. Your journey can begin as it did for Dagny in the story if you can project the potential of this image and the where it leads:

    www.GaltsGulchPortal.blogspot.ca

    Honestly, it will help you make your peace with the world. Something Ayn Rand never attained herself (nor did those in closest proximity - Frank O'Connor died in a demented state) but she laid the groundwork for future Objectivists.
    Its all here if you want to grasp it.

    And I mean it.
    JohnGalt Iamoura
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 10 months ago
    The one bright spot in the atrocity of 'The Whiskey Rebellion' for George was after leading the troops, with Hamilton as second, to put down the 'Rebellion', George realized what he was doing and feeling revolted by the realization, left to return home leaving Hamilton to finish up. George himself, was a significant whiskey distiller, experimenting and developing his own recipes. Some still used today by 'moonshiners'.

    The 'Federalists' of our founding began their attack on the Constitution even before approval, but even had the anti's come out on top over the next few generations, we'd still have these battles at the state levels. Gov't at any level will always contain within it the drive for power, control, and money.
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 10 months ago
    When you realize that there is so much oil available today there is no need for ethanol which is costly to produce, unless of course you are a farmer raising this specific corn which is not edible because you are getting money from the government to raise the stuff. and the beat goes on!
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    • Posted by blackswan 8 years, 10 months ago
      The only one who is even coming close to getting government out of our lives is Rand Paul, and you see how popular his ideas are. As long as you have farmers getting subsidies for ethanol, and multinationals getting subsidies for exports, and welfare recipients getting subsidies for living, and healthcare getting subsidies for drugs and other supplies, etc., you will continue to have enough critical mass to keep the game going. Until and unless EVERYONE gets his eyes off his neighbor's wallet, this system will prevail until it finally collapses. What's needed, at a minimum, is a constitutional amendment restricting the government from dabbling in the economy. However, with all the special interests desiring such dabbling, it's probably a fool's errand to keep dreaming about something that looks like it will never happen.
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      • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
        You appear to be looking at this as an issue to be dealt with from the top down (i.e presidential candidates). Try looking at it as a bottom-up issue, beginning with yourself. There is a great deal that can be done individually and in small local groups. This is happening already all over the place. Get enough such micro-efforts going and leviathan is doomed. Not likely in my lifetime though (wink).
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      • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 10 months ago
        It can happen. But we have to be explicit in say-
        ing we want a laissez-faire system, and not, as
        the article mentions, getting bogged down in the
        details about whether a specific subsidy program
        "works" or not. We must say, over and over, that
        such subsidies violate the rights of man and are
        subversive of the proper purpose of government---to protect man against force and violence (in-
        cluding fraud),and punish same. And when the
        opponents start sniveling about how "heartless"
        and "selfish" we are, dismiss that complaint
        with the contempt it deserves.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 10 months ago
    I agree with this. I don't know how to get the discourse moved from the utilitarian merits to the question of whether it's important enough to use violence to get the money to fund it. I always think of something like research grants to study something important like a new kind of heart monitor or something related to treating cancer. It might be a great program. The people doing it might be great scientists taking funding where they can get it. They're not at all moochers. That doesn't make it right for gov't to fund it with tax dollars.
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