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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 10 months ago
    Remember - if you were alive back then - or imagine what it was like, never having the question of "shrugging" being raised, anywhere, anytime in history. Is it in Aristotle? Nicole Oresme? Locke? Schopenhauer? Louisa May Alcott? Mark Twain? It had to be discovered. Rand hit on it first in a moment of brilliant insight. Then she proved her thesis. Her novel showed the intellectual path hewed by those who discovered this truth. For Galt, it was her own insight. For the others - McNamara, Halley, William Hastings (who took years struggling with the truth), Ken Dannager, and more - the truth had to be learned and absorbed, integrated, before it could be acted on.

    You have benefited from Ayn Rand's struggle, and their story.

    As for Rand herself, the story is that she was on the telephone with Isabel Paterson. The world had been shocked into awareness by The Fountainhead. But the movie was then five years in the past, the book ten. Everyone was waiting for Rand's next book. Fortune magazine hinted at it in 1952. They knew that she was working on a novel "about business" in the tone of The Fountainhead. Paterson said that Rand had to write another novel because her fans expect it. (Maybe she said "demand". It is in one of the biographies.) Anyway, Rand saw through it, as no one ever did. "They do? What if I stopped writing? What if all of the authors stopped writing?" And there it was.

    No one had ever asked that question before.

    Why did Dagny not quit? Why did Dagny smoke cigarettes?
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  • Posted by Riftsrunner 8 years, 10 months ago
    Dagny had to realise that she was allowing the looters and moochers to continue. She thought she was saving her way of life, but in reality she was shoring up the socialist policies of her enemies. So if she were to create another railroad, she wouldn't be any further ahead of the game, because that railroad would have become the Taggert Transcontinental Railroad in spirit, if not, in reality. They (looters and moochers) were constantly creating problems with their policies, and relying on Dagny (and others like her) to fix them. If she quit, she had to quit entirely and not try to build a better railroad in order to see her world rebuilt in its glory. She had to realise that they needed to live in the world they had created without the safety net of the Men of the Mind there to catch them.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago
    It was a novel designed to show how fighting the system while staying in it was doomed to failure. Galt was a bit of a difficult character to identify with, but most of us are doing the Dagny/Rearden thing to keep our lives going inside of a crooked and bankrupt system. I do it- but I definitely am likiing it less
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 10 months ago
      Excellent comment, Term. It is getting more and more painful to keep going.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago
        I can understand better the idea of using our society to make ,,$$ any way you can without regard for whats legal. (making and selling drugs, selling guns,, dealing in securities schemes. Pho my businesslike SIG, add-ons). There isn't going to be a secure future. So live for today blindly
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        • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 10 months ago
          Term, that's easy to say, and I am perfectly ok coasting along, as I am 63. So I am sticking to my principles and as my income goes down, I don't care. But here's the problem. My children. The next generation.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years, 10 months ago
            There isnt a lot you can do at this point (or me for that matter) to give a sustainable future for your children. There are just too many statists and moochers out there to allow for the changes that are necessary. Its going to take a lot of accountability pressures on the government before enough citizens see that they are being raped by the moochers and agree to some changes. I am voting for Trump, primarily because he has no political correctness and will expose how the current policies just arent working. If he just does THAT, I will be happy. I doubt that he could make substantive changes in the direction of the country in 4 short years. Might be helpful for your children, however.
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  • Posted by beesqr 8 years, 10 months ago
    If Dagny started a really new line, she would have had to procure new rights of way and immense amounts of rail and ties. After that, she would need thousands of coolie (or other) laborers. then she would have to start competing with established lines. It would be a fairy tale; not a realistic story.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago
      I think what the original poster means, is this: why did she not simply accept Francisco d'Anconia's offer of a contract to build a three-mile narrow-gauge line from Francisco's mine to the valley floor?

      It's easy to imagine how that scene might have played out differently, had she decided it wasn't worth risking John Galt's life for her to indulge in some fantasy of "educating" a den of thieves:

      John says, "You've decided, then?"

      And she says, "Yes."

      But she goes up to Midas and asks him for an appointment, at nine a.m. the next day, so she can claim the settlement account and negotiate a business loan. Then she asks Francisco for a letter of intent for that narrow-gauge line she had earlier proposed. She also asks Francisco for his word of honor that he will see to Hank Rearden's defection at the earliest opportunity. And maybe she offers Ragnar a commission to pull Eddie out.

      But where then would have been the story? The story was really about Dagny Taggart and Henry Rearden separately concluding that the motives, morals, and loyalties of James Taggart and all the rest of that crew were completely foreign to them--foreign, as far as that goes, to anything properly human. And under no circumstances could a Dagny Taggart or a Henry Rearden negotiate with them.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago
    Had Dagny quit the railroad after crash-landing in the valley, we would have had no story. One must wonder how artificial the decision might have been.

    Then again: Dagny--and Henry Rearden, too--had to hit bottom, and realize they were hanging onto something, the meaning of which had ceased to exist. For Henry Rearden, that realization came to him on his long drive across New Jersey and back to Pennsylvania, after the abortive meeting with James Taggart, Floyd Ferris, Tinky Holloway, Wesley Mouch, and (as I think) Chick Morrison. The last tumbler of the steel safe fell when James Taggart, in that most Freudian of slips, said, "Oh, you'll do something!"

    Dagny had a worse problem. She wanted to preserve the railroad as close to intact as possible--so that when the looters lost the battle, she'd have the railroad still in existence. The railroad also had tradition behind it. Rearden Steel was only as old as Henry Rearden's adult career, and not even as old as that. Taggart Transcontinental went all the way back to the American War Between the States. "From ocean to ocean forever." One does not give up a thing like that lightly.

    That's what almost cracked Francisco d'Anconia. He had four hundred years of tradition, going clear back to the Spanish Empire and the Viceroyalty of Peru, to throw away.

    Of course, John Galt's arrest brought Dagny around. Not so much the arrest itself, as her realization that the people who rode Taggart trains wouldn't lift a finger to help him. Francisco knew she would see that; hence his recruitment of her as a spy, with a cutout number to dial when the time came.

    Eddie Willers, sadly, never realized it. He didn't want to surrender such achievement, either to the looters' government or to the inexorable inertia and potential energy of the great tumbling boulder, or snowslide, the American economy had by then become. "Don't let it go!" he cries.

    Rand was a champion of justice above all. There was justice in what had to happen to Dagny, and how she had to suffer. To paraphrase Ray Collins as James W. Gettys in Citizen Kane, she needed more than one lesson. And she got more than one lesson. Happily for her and for John, she got the last lesson in time.

    And there is justice in what we assume happens to Eddie. Never once able to consider independence, or to apply to himself to surviving a total social collapse, he falls victim to it. At least half the reviews and commentaries on AS I have ever read, assume Eddie dies on that track, lying prone in front of that crippled locomotive, and probably breathing his last even before the batteries give out on that loco's headlight.

    Why did Dagny not quit until John Galt had to demonstrate the futility of waiting for the looters to come around, by placing himself into the looters' hands? Know that, and you'll also know why Eddie did not stick with Dagny when she offered to pull him out with her.
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    • Posted by SBilko 8 years, 10 months ago
      Rand designed each of the characters in AS with a fatal flaw, with the exception of Galt, the perfect man. Dagny's was her attachment to TT, Hank's was his attachment to his wife and family.They had to see these flaws in order to advance. Rand's personification, Galt, waited until the right time to approach each of his strikers, and that time was when the flaw became apparent to them.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago
        Hank Rearden seemed a special case to me--particularly in that Francisco, rather than John Galt, undertook to watch for the moment to share the secret with him.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
      Excellent analysis. Thanks Temlakos. It was interesting that she had Dagny finally realize shrugging was the only option but Eddie stayed. One more act of love for Dagny perhaps?
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      • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 10 months ago
        Not only Dagny but Nat Taggart. The Willers family had served the Taggarts for as long as something called the Taggart Transcontinental Rail Road existed. Again, one does not give up a thing like that lightly.

        I might possibly imagine someone rescuing him, however: Sheriff Joseph Arpaio, the real-life Sheriff of Maricopa County, Arizona, acting on tips from that wagon train when it rolls into Phoenix. If any modern-day LEO would have "shrugged," Joe Arpaio would have been the one.

        Except Rand didn't invent anyone like Sheriff Joe. She literally never could have imagined such a person.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 10 months ago
    It's been a while, but my understanding she had enough authority as VP that she thought she could restore the company from that position. She may also have had a share of ownership that was illiquid, so she had a vested interest in seeing the company recover. This responsibility without authority is frustrating to her. It leads her to convining the board to spin off a skunkworks, freed from the politics of the parent company, where she can try something risky without endangering the parent company's brand or political connections. She doggedly keeps trying to work around the politics, until she finally gives up. She feels like the world is twisting her arm to make her produce without realizing twisting her arms makes it harder for her to produce. They make "desertion" from a job illegal. But they'll look the other way for her b/c none of this is real rule of law. It's just a cabal of people in power who need someone they can cajole or scare into doing the actual work so they can "manage" things.

    To me that's the whole point. She was so a preternaturally driven to produce and to ignore political BS. The point is even the most dogged producer will eventually shrug because it's difficult to make someone innovate at gunpoint.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
      Things were worse for the other railroads and starting a new railroad would have been near impossible. She benefited in the short run by James' actions. I forgot that directive 10-289 made leaving a mute point and you're right that she tended to tune out the political noise.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 10 months ago
      She actually told her brother to keep his title she would take the authority as the price for digging him out of a hole and a the responsibility. She didn't have the time to stop him he had the votes on the board of directors and he alone could stop the looting long enough to allow the time needed to make repairs.

      The lesson is when a train wreck is going to happen no matter what is done to stop it...get off the tracks.

      One might well apply that to present day circumstances.

      Part Two of the Bush & Obama Great Recession is .....coming down the track.
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  • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 10 months ago
    I thought she did quit but not right away. She built something against all odds only to have it destroyed in the end, right? Or did I forget and need to read AS again?

    And if she had quit and started her own line would she had any more chance at all with the odds or would the outcome have been the same? Hmmm.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
      She took a leave to build the "John Galt Line" but then returned to Taggert Transcontinental. She finally shrugged at the end but why not leave the company sooner? Maybe work for the Phoenix Durango or start over. Didn't she benefit from the deals James made? Why not take a stronger stand?
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      • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 10 months ago
        That's right, it was a leave. But she only returned to save it correct?

        Very valid questions Rich. Seems to me questions many of us struggle with.

        I worked in printing for 11 years before I finally decided to open my own company. I thought about it for a number of years because the company I was working for was not headed in a direction that I wanted to go. It still took me at least 5 years to make a move. Why? Many factors but likely the biggest was I was used to it. It was more comfortable to stay than leave. It is funny, from the day I left to start my own I did not miss the company at all. My life was so much easier even though it was all on my shoulders.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
          It may be the reason her respect for Nat Taggert was such an important part of the story. It's hard to walk away from a family business. I think its fair to wonder why she didn't do more to stop him.
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          • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 10 months ago
            I think there was a huge component of her love for the family company and her desire to return it to its roots, as her ancestor had built it, to make the world be as it should be, and as she believed it had once been. The reason she did not leave Taggart Transcontinental (she was not truly leaving when she built the John Galt Line) is the same reason it took her so long to shrug.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 10 months ago
    She only had two choices...quit or be destroyed by the very people she was working for.

    It's as simple as that. I'm surprised that a "Gulcher" even asked the question.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
      I don't think she expected to be destroyed. She fought to keep Taggert Transcontinental going. Could a critic of the book claim that Dagny wasn't that strong and that she benefited from the deals James made?
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      • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 10 months ago
        You are correct...she did not expect to be destroyed, but she didn't really expect to win, except at first.
        Had John not intervened, she and Reardan would probably have died fighting and that would have been a terrible tragedy.

        As for benefiting from James' deals...those deals cost her far more than she ever received in return. No...I would have to say that she did not benefit, once the results were tallied.
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        • Posted by 8 years, 10 months ago
          That is an excellent point. In the end it was James and the deals his buddies cooked up that destroyed the economy and the railroad. While it may appear that she and Taggert Transcontinental benefited in the short run she knew in the long run it would bring everyone down. I wasn't taking in the big picture.
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      • Posted by xthinker88 8 years, 10 months ago
        Of course she benefited from her brother's actions. That is why Ragnar used her salary from her income tax returns to determine how much gold she should be reimbursed rather than profits she made off her shares in the company. He even tells her that that is the reason.
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  • Posted by 77nomads 8 years, 10 months ago
    The post that Ayn was common in her story is false. That she lived this life event is fine. She created a philosophy to think about. Men and women draw to strength. It is about believing in one self. hard work and determination. The principles have not changed.
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