What if Galt's Gulch was visible?

Posted by richrobinson 9 years, 1 month ago to The Gulch: General
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What if we did set up our own Galts Gulch? We welcomed the best and the brightest and the hardest workers from all walks of life. Instead of being hidden in a valley, however, it is out in plain site. A state inside the US for example that succeeds from the union. Would we have to build a wall? Would the Federal government allow us to exist? Would neighboring States cause problems?


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    Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 1 month ago
    If it's visible, then it's not Galt's Gulch. And I suspect a visible Gulch would be at continual defensive war.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      Would a wall help? How would we deal with immigration?
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 1 month ago
        As Tech says. The analogy between Galt's Gulch, a literary device, and the actual world falls apart because of the difficulty of the invisibility and the difficulty of projecting the search for invitees on the scale of the US or even the world. More importantly, when thinking of the Gulch in the real world, than immigrants or invitees, is that of what to do with children of residents that can't or won't accept the terms of the Gulch. The nature of humanity dictates that at least some percentage of births will be sociopaths and psychopaths. Incurable and non-controllable. And the Bell Curve applies to all attributes of humanity. A percentage just won't fit or will be unable to reason to a level necessary for productive participation.

        There is one author that has attempted it recently using a built up reef system like China is presently attempting in the S. China Sea. But that artificial island nation depends on radical weaponry for defense, a contract between the existing residents of the island and any new-comer, and the negative costs to any other that might wish to try to overpower the island. But again, it's a literary device.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
          Thanks Zen. Not sure why I hadn't thought of that before but the literary Gulch was temporary and wouldn't have suffered from the issues you outline. If we set up a real Gulch with the intention of it lasting generations then a whole new set of problems exist.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 1 month ago
            Oh, but it might have. Remember: "We started with no time limit in view. We did not know whether we would see the final collapse, or whether the next generation would. We knew only this was how we wished to live. But now we see the collapse happening sooner than expected." That's the key: John Galt succeeded because the society collapsed of its own weight before they could do anything more than take him prisoner--and Ragnar Danneskjöld rescued him anyway.
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    • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
      would have to be in an uninhabited place like antartica or the amazon jungle to be given a chance to get large enough to be self sufficient before attacked.
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  • Posted by handyman 9 years, 1 month ago
    Setting up any kind of geographically and politically distinct area as a Galt’s Gulch has so many hurdles and impracticalities in today’s world that devoting time and energy to the notion is an enormous waste. As noted elsewhere, Rand set it up as a literary device to illustrate how an ideal society might look. The only reason I can see to continue imagining such a place is to explore various ideas and policies that might be applicable in such a society.

    For now and the foreseeable future, Objectivists’ energies could be put to much more productive use exploring how local Objectivist networks can be started, nurtured and grown into viable and vibrant societies within the existing fabric of political boundaries. The practicality is there. As noted by term2, doing some of the things religions do offer a blueprint for one way to promote activities and interactions that Objectivists within a reasonable distance would value. I shouldn’t have to mention it, but, of course, I’m not suggesting religion as a philosophical model, but as an organizational model. Perhaps social organizations like the Elks Club, VFW, etc. are a better organizational model.

    Such a network would be visible – as visible as any church, business, or social organization. Any fears of the IRS or marauding Baptists coming to shut you down are just as fanciful as waiting for the real Galt’s Gulch to appear. If Mosques aren’t being shut down, neither will your local Objectivist meeting hall.

    Having such a local organization, of course, does not allow one to escape existing taxes, unreasonable laws and ordinances and other oppressions and annoyances of municipal, county, state and federal entities. You might say, “well, then what is the point of doing so?” If we, as participants in local Objectivist networks, put as much time and effort into nurturing our own society-within-a-society (including overturning or doing end runs around oppressive laws) as we do in dreaming about the fantasy of a geographically distinct gulch (presumably set up by someone else?) we would be making concrete progress toward the kind of society we would like eventually to actually live in.

    Objectivists have to make a choice: continue fantasying about a gulch or actually devising plans to find ways that promote interactions of all kinds with nearby Objectivists. The possibilities are limitless. Is anybody doing it?
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 1 month ago
    Sure it could exist. Gulchers could peacefully take over a town, elect its own leaders, provide its own private law enforcement, and perhaps setup its own private currency. Even so, state taxes would have to be paid and, I'm sure, some type of use fee and taxes for electricity and water. All that need be done is find a town someplace where a factory closed and most people left, buy the existing homes and buy-out any stragglers.

    It wouldn't be a State and State laws would be in effect but day-to-day would be controlled by the people of the community and the local authorities.

    Its possible.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 1 month ago
      Don't forget: part of the plan would be to generate their own electricity and dig their own wells, or else locate on a body of water. Off the grid. And probably "zone" land for farming.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      If and when such a community thrived would we have to deal with a large inflow of people? The first would most likely be productive but the the looters and moochers would show up eventually. Is there a way of keeping them out? Communities like you describe are everywhere. We have a few nearby that never recovered from the collapse of the steel industry in the US.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 1 month ago
        Hey, I'm all for the authority to keep people out, if thats the need - Th Right to Travel doesn't wash with me when private property is concerned; that includes national boundaries. Still, it is possible.
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  • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 1 month ago
    States are starting to fight the federal government but their voices are... inconsistent at best. More like incoherent and, more often than not, anti liberty. But the right state, loaded with Objectivists, could make a helluva stand. Gonna need a lot more Objectivists.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      The Feds have the States addicted to Federal money. It would take a lot of Objectivists to break that bond. I just wonder what would happen once things are up and running. Would other States want to join us or destroy us?
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      • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 1 month ago
        Correct on all points, I'd say. The difficult part, of course, is getting it up and running. That would have to include a plan to defy the fedgov little by little until it was basically irrelevant. States that followed along would be helpful but others would be left behind. Being landlocked would make things much more difficult. Great to think about. It would take a long time.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
          If one State did get up and running it would be interesting to see how the public would respond. The moochers and looters would see it as destroying their way of life. Would they resort to terrorism?
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          • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 1 month ago
            It would be easy to see them resorting to terrorism. But somehow I imagine it being a slow process of choking out federally funded programs, refusing to administer federally funded programs, not allowing federal officials into the state to enforce the programs and their rules. If you had large, heavily federally funded universities in the state and you managed to cut the federal funds coming to it, even slowly, I imagine you would see acts of terrorism.

            It would take quite a lot of Objectivists to accomplish anything but then, if you managed to get that many together in one state, I would expect to see some pretty ingenious ways come up to choke out the fedgov. And you might get a long way with it before you were really noticed and targeted.
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      • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
        If it follows business competition, they would first try to destroy us, and if that failed, then join us. Similar to what happens when a small innovative company enters a market with a lot of big companies- kind of like UBER did with the cab industry.
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  • Posted by ShrugInArgentina 9 years, 1 month ago
    I don't think any State in the US has the slightest chance of seceding from the Union (as long as it exists).
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    • Posted by ShrugInArgentina 9 years, 1 month ago
      PS: If it's visible, it will probably be taxed and regulated out of existence. Then its residents will have to Go Galt somewhere else.

      And even if the "best and the brightest and hardest workers from all walks of life" gather in one place, how could there possibly be enough of them to create anywhere near the same standard of living the vast majority of them already "enjoy" where they are presently located?

      Only a collapse of the system will "allow" a gulch to exist, and then it had better not be visible.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
        Great points. I doubt the Feds would allow us to proceed but if it did I wonder if we would have to guard the borders. Would looters and moochers want in even if we had no handouts?
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        • Posted by ShrugInArgentina 9 years, 1 month ago
          Moochers always want handouts, and looters wont be asking, just taking.
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          • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 1 month ago
            At which point the non-aggression principle comes into play. But, as we all know, events don't happen if they're not reported by the Major Media. I would like events which affect us to be reported correctly, but lets say for some finite time, they aren't. I fear the incorrect reporting which will happen.
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  • Posted by JCLanier 9 years, 1 month ago
    Unless you have a really significant amount of money to buy that island and have more money to put into the infrastructure and more money still for defense (to deter who might want to take it back after you develop it), it just isn't feasible. Countries outside the US that would sell their land to a large group of foreigners for development are most likely to not be dependable (politically) or secure (economically). And that is really way too big of a risk where everyone could lose everything. I have thought about this for some time and I have had to always come back to the US as offering the best deal where you would, first of all, have rights as citizens under the law. If America goes down so does the protection of its citizens wherever they may be in the world. Ultimately, the best bang for your buck, with specific rights and a strong military already in place is here in the US. And you can recede into the background rather easily if you do the few cardinal requirements, i.e, taxes. But you would have to pay taxes in any country.

    Also, if you move out of the US, I believe you would be hard pressed to get more than a handful of Gulchers to make that move. It may not be storybook perfection, remaining in the US, but it does most likely offer the best deal. You could live, create and operate as Objectivists in relative obscurity. So, unless you plan to run drugs, produce moonshine and engage in illegal gambling you would have nothing of interest to anyone. If it is an end of society scenario (Walking Dead) then repercussions would be felt eventually around the world.

    Rich, "hiding in plane sight" is exactly what it states. If you develop land and build housing and infrastructure- there is nothing unusual about this. New technology in solar energy, battery powered and stored energy (Tesla) and wind systems along with water recycling systems are becoming more dependable and affordable. You would have grid services but you would plan for a fully independent system, off the grid, without advertising it- call it a "green energy-saving backup system" that nobody outside really needs to know about. Your land development comes with a contained perimeter -a wall with top of the line security systems.

    Since it is inconsequential, you do not state your philosophy or your reasons. You have your investors- nothing unusual. You decide how you will sell property rights in your development and to whom. Now, here is where you would need to carefully plan your internal strategy. For example, there are specific laws for different types of housing. For example, a 55+ condominium in a community has certain legal privileges. You could make part or all of your housing development a "Co-op" which legally owns title to the property and the structures where home owners are actually stockholders and are issued stock certificates. And the Association is the legal entity. This gives everyone voting rights in all decisions. Your development should consider having various combinations, e.g., single family homes, town houses, condominiums and rental apartments (for visiting family members and Gulchers who cannot stay full time or want to rent instead of own). You could also develop a commercial annex next door or down the road. Where businesses, and services would be located. There are many reasons as to why you would want the commercial-business complex to be separate from the residential.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      Excellent JC. Not publicly stating our Philosophy is a great idea. We would control the educational system and potentially by the time we were perceived as a threat we would have changed enough minds that it would be too late. Interesting...
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 1 month ago
    Hello richrobinson,
    The more I read of other peoples' thoughts, the more I think the statists would do whatever it takes to kill off the idea. I am thinking that if it were visible it would have to be run like an underground or black market economy. A facade of phony storefronts and the like would have to be maintained as well as two sets of books. Everyone's Gulch business would have to be run out of the back room like a speakeasy, with a storefront only for show and outsiders. Out in the open would mean that a certain amount of compliance and interaction with the general public and its officials would have to be maintained in order to avoid scrutiny. Trading among Gulchers would require secrecy, special codes and currency. The problem is that too often "Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead." - Benjamin Franklin. The Gangsters managed during prohibition to some degree because of fear of death/retribution. Non- initiation of force kind of puts a monkey wrench in the scenario. Ultimately the Feds even got Capone, though they had to nail him on tax evasion. The same could easily be envisioned for defiant Gulch members.

    If there was a massive movement of citizens willing to defy the government, I suppose they could use Cloward and Piven strategies to overwhelm the government system and initiate a collapse. They can't arrest and incarcerate too many of us, unless those detainment centers we keep hearing about are designed for such an insurrection. However, there are now so many citizens on the dole and willing to be dominated as long as the handouts keep coming that this scenario seems unlikely. There no longer seems to be enough citizens with the philosophy of independence to be swayed by truths like those set out in Paine's Common Sense. Propaganda perfected, is now the preeminent tool of the statists and the individualist is at a disadvantage. Envy, egalitarianism, altruism and statism is winning. Hence our present state of affairs.

    If the Gulch could exist in the open, it would have to come about by legitimate means, like overwhelming a sovereign nation with enough new inhabitants to vote in their preferred governance. Many believe this is the endgame of open borders. Of course, in our case the political system the migrants bring is not considered superior and yet the affects are already being felt.

    Of course we could all read AJAshinoff's book (Shadows Live Under Seashells) and consider life on Mars... I doubt such a settlement is within reach during my lifetime, but that is a scenario where it could be carried out in plain sight. Perhaps the Moon... It is a dream. :)

    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      Excellent analysis as always OA. I like the idea of a shadow economy like happened under prohibition but the Feds have eyes and ears everywhere. There literally is nowhere to hide. Having a group of States break away together or somehow retaking our government may ultimately be the only way.
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    • Posted by xthinker88 9 years, 1 month ago
      The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - by Robert Heinlein

      Reinvents the American Revolution on the Moon. Full of liberty ideas and basically RAH's idea of a libertarian society.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 1 month ago
        Hello xthinke88,
        I like it. :) The short story "Lone Star Planet"- H. Beam Piper and John J. McGuire, is also an interesting read about a space colony set up based on old school Texas justice and society. The Republic of Texas didn't know how good they had it.
        Regards,
        O.A.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
    Interesting idea. If inside the USA, it would be subject to the federal laws, many of which are socialistic and totally opposite what Objectivists would want. Then there would be the state laws and county regulations. You couldnt build the house you wanted unless "approved". You would be subject to resstrictions on cars and off road vehicles. I am not sure that the end of the day there would be much "gulching" left to enjoy. There would be federal taxes, state taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc. just like now. Not to mention employee hiring and discrimmination laws to contend with.

    Religious groups have tried it, and when they get to a certain size, they are attacked by the feds for some "infraction" and shut down.

    Probably the biggest of the private societies would be the mormons in salt lake city. Its a booming area up there due to the work and financial and family ethic of the mormons, but its done quietly and under the cover of "religion"- which helps them avoid federal involvement because of the "religious freedom" part of the constitution. Maybe a new religion should be started which happens to adopt Objectivist principles, and go that way.

    A gulch would have to be distributed into relatively small "cells" to minimize detection
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 1 month ago
    The War Between the States gives us the best historical model for what would happen if you tried to set up Galt's State instead of Galt's Gulch. Ragnar Danneskjöld would have to be more than buccaneer or privateer. He would have to command an army, a navy, and an air force. As it was, his activities placed the Gulch at risk anyway.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      With the current administration we could set it up as a separate Islamic State. We would claim religious freedom and be left alone til a Republican was elected. We then would have to convert to Christianity.
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      • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 1 month ago
        Hey Rich, I better want to understand where you are coming from in saying that the Republicans will convert everyone to Christianity.

        Personally, I don't see most of them that way, at least the one's that I would consider supporting. Many hold Christian beliefs but I believe they strongly support an individuals right to choose a religion or none at all. What am I missing?

        Ed
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  • Posted by illucio 9 years, 1 month ago
    Isolation is, after all; what many are doing nowadays anyways. Eventually, everyone is drawn into the circus. To be stealth is, of course; a way to go without notice and all this means. Both encouragement and envy, support and hate. Today, privacy is practically unattainable really. It has become a luxury we pay for.

    Should there exist a haven well, the minute it goes public is the moment of it´s own demise. Somethings are better left unsaid.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 1 month ago
    I would expect that various government agencies, beginning with IRS, would trump up charges to justify seizing the strikers' homes and other assets, culminating in another Waco siege.

    Thus any open "Gulch" would need to be on non-US territory. And preferably sovereign (which likely means either taking over some small poor country or arranging a lease similar to Hong Kong's former arrangement).
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  • Posted by walkabout 9 years, 1 month ago
    Lincoln determined that the "Union" can be held together against the will of the States or even the people. If a Galt's Gulch was created, as soon a it was profitable, looters would sweep in and kill the goose . . ....
    Years ago I heard of a plan for libertarians to move to one state (I think Vermont was targeted) and elect themselves to offices of control and implement libertarian ideas. Don't know the status of the plan.
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  • Posted by $ guinness222 9 years, 1 month ago
    Point of interest, The Libertarian Party selected New Hampshire, several years ago and are trying to lure libertarians there much in a Galt's Gulch type community, ultimately changing the entire government to Libertarians. A lot of factors make it reasonable. No Sales Taxes, No State Income Taxes, no Federal aid to Education accepted, and many more factors, plus it is a very pretty place to live, I did before moving to Florida.
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    • Posted by bsmith51 9 years, 1 month ago
      Proximity to Massataxes/Taxachusetts and the influx of Massholes killed that idea.
      Since Jeanne Shaheen, NH has gone decidedly left.
      Point of interest: There is no such thing as not living in a town or city as far as taxes are concerned. When you register your car you write 2 checks, one to the town and one to the state. Each year, each town has its budget meeting to prioritize spending for the following year. Some towns, to emphasize education, for example, leave their streets unpaved. But the schools have been taken over by the left. For my daughter's 10th birthday in Hampton, I brought a pizza to school so she could have a little lunch party with her friends and me. I was immediately stopped by the principal who said that would be unfair to all the poor kids who didn't have nice parents. So we ate alone in a private room.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
    Feds would smash it. They'd cook up some story to build public support for the use of force.

    I have been seriously looking at acquiring some acreage near here and building a commune of home-schoolers on it. I'd literally have these families I know design/build their own homes. I can engineer the water and sewer, design PV with storage, work out the power/phone connects. I'd design a build a small, state-of-the-art school house. But, in the back of my mind is this issue of government wanting to crack into it. We'd be doing nothing wrong: raising chickens, going to our jobs in the city, educating our kids. But...that could be a problem in today's environment, especially in a blue state. I do have interest from several other families. The interest is entirely in raising our kids to be smart and strong. It's getting so hard to do that in our society now.

    I'd name it "Atlantis", or "Mulligan's Hill...."
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    • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 1 month ago
      If in the alleged jurisdiction of the US, it would be another Waco; the Gulchers would be branded as child abusers, drug dealers, gun runners, and hackers violating 'national security.'
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      • Posted by ShrugInArgentina 9 years, 1 month ago
        The US government (thanks to an Executive Order) already has the power to seize food supplies in the event of a "national emergency" (at least at the "wholesale" level). I'm not sure this applies to individuals....yet.

        Of course hoarding food (aka: having an emergency or a one year supply) is not only unpatriotic, under the ACA it will be considered a symptom of mental illness (if it isn't already) and no doubt grounds for "hospitalization" and "reeducation" (probably at a FEMA camp).
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
        That's my fear. At this time some states and, just recently, the feds are passing laws that tie mandatory medical treatments for children to public schools. Here in Cal this movement includes private schools. The schools suck, in general, so I don't know what they're thinking. But, I know many families who want to protect their children from this silent totalitarianism while also preparing them for the rest of their lives. That's what this would be all about.

        But...in the grand scheme we (you, me, the kids) are all the real livestock in this picture. Imagine a farmer's reaction if a group of cows decided to break through the fence and start their own barn, free from slaughter.
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    • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
      Call it something else to not attract attention. I think that a series of smallish "cells" could flourish. Its a great idea. This is not unlike the branch dividians in Waco, TX, or the FLDS commune the polygamous mormons set up. They both became targets due to a cache of guns, or supposed mistreatment of children. Both were turned into the feds by the local citizens who were nosy
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
        Yeah, thanks. I immediately thought of Waco with this. But, in our case (given the group of interest here) there would be zero organized religion. I think that would be helpful. It would be a very low-profile thing. It might be as simple as me owning the land, carrying the paper on the structures, and/or charging rent from the occupants. ...just churning the ideas in my head. It all could have real challenges if there are one or two nuts involved. I immediately know of four other families interested who are all good, informed folks.
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        • Posted by term2 9 years, 1 month ago
          Going to involve moving and all that is involved. I think for something really significant as this, one has to plan, but then just take the plunge and DO IT.
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          • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
            Of course. Well...all of these families have been thinking about moving...to anywhere we can keep the government ghouls off of our kids.

            Discussions and calculations continue...
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    • Posted by gcarl615 9 years, 1 month ago
      May I offer my abilities as caretaker, maintainance man, gardener, or what ever?
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      • Posted by ShrugInArgentina 9 years, 1 month ago
        At age 65 I spend about six hours a day during the warmer months maintaining the grounds of "El Rancho Escondido" (some photos can be seen at http://goinggaltargentina.blogspot.co...).

        It is the most "rewarding" physical labor I have ever done.

        PS: The "Casa Rosa" is the house I built in Sayulita, Nayarit, Mexico. I lived there from 2000-2006, but as Sayulita became a major tourist destination I thought it was time to head further south...much further.

        The white house in the photos is LeCorbusier's Villa Savoye near Paris. I think it would be the "ideal" house in which to Go Galt in Argentina, at least at my present location. I first saw a photo of it in Janson's History of Art when I was a student at Illinois State in the early 70's and have wanted to live in a house of the same design since then.

        The best thing about "Going Galt" in Argentina is that I can live as I please, the government is not intrusive in the least , and everyone is friendly and helpful (and I do mean everyone!)...at least where I live.
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        • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
          Those are great photos. A coworker of mine just spent a few weeks in Argentina as a tourist and she really enjoyed it. She had many photos of the Patagonia area that she shared with me.
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  • Posted by LilGinger 9 years ago
    I mean don't we all wish it was, but the feds would never allow it to exist, I mean like where would we put up our homes, how would we pay for the land and lastly wouldn't this cause anarchy overall, because of the way that people would want to take what we have.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years ago
      I'm living there. In the open. I own my house. No one is trying to take zip from me...

      it's a question of changing your life style and with that your location, USA is not the whole world.

      The gulch is a state of mind what you do with that information gained is your decision. This site just tries to give you the freedom of reason and choice. Most shackles are ones you put on yourself. Strike them off!
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 9 years ago
    Now we're talking about secession; I'm hoping that I could have a part in making it happen. If enough states vote for it and have the National Guard along with local militias could sustain the borders of their respective states then a visible Gulch is possible. A Gulch could be set up in each seceeded state. They will able to drive the economy in those states. Then powerful passive devises would be invented and used to protect the New Confederat States of America.
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    • Posted by 9 years ago
      Texas has made some noise about seceding before. I think you're right and it would have to be a group of States. Even then we risk another Civil War. Then again, this government is so far in debt it may not be able to afford it.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
    I've had an interest in the State of Jefferson movement. I occasionally do business in that region and I love it up there. It really is one of the most beautiful places on earth. The people are laid-back. Lots of natural resources. It's a nice place. People still have "Welcome to the State of Jefferson" painted on their barns.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 1 month ago
      I can't help wondering which side would rule "Jefferson" if it did achieve statehood. The Ecotopians, or the Vonuists?
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      • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 1 month ago
        Well, I know that the inhabitants I deal with up there, in general, are sick of government largesse. They were also devastated by the tree hugger spotted owl fiasco. So, they grow weed now vs cutting trees.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 1 month ago
    The hardest part of that scenario is how to check out the applicants for residency. Worse yet, how to refuse them. If it is part of the USA you're screwed. Declaring independence will be a gun in your ear. The idea of creating a shining example of what freedom can do can only be done somewhere where the land is completely owned by the new state and is truly sovereign. The idea of visibility is good, but in this world, in its current state, it is also a low hanging fruit ripe for plucking. So, one must add to that a reason that would keep the Huns from the gates. An unstoppable weapon, or territory so difficult it's too costly to raid, or whatever other deterrent you can imagine. It may be a very long road before humanity is mature enough to become rational.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 1 month ago
      Im starting to think that instead of a Galt like shield for invisibility we would need more sophisticated weapons. Hard to believe the US has deteriorated so bad.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 1 month ago
        When I was a kid, we believed that yes, there was evil in the world, and yes, it might hurt us, but we were the good guys and we'll always come out on top in the end. Now-- not so much.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 1 month ago
    you talk about being attacked -- better have a very good
    defense system! . eeeeevvvvvvverrrryyyone wants something
    for nothing, and we'd have something they'd want!!!

    in my humble, the only hope is the secession of a
    huge group of States who would -- in effect -- hold
    the rest for ransom with their goods and services withdrawn,
    just like Rand envisioned, except geographical. . you might
    want to consider my most recent edit:::

    http://www.amazon.com/Unsustainable-T...

    the "flyover" States secede from the union and get changes to
    their successor U.S.A. constitution accepted by the rest
    of the States. . far-fetched? . you decide, OK? -- j
    .
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 1 month ago
    jbrenner among others has postulated a potential location for a Gulch, but so far it's like trying to locate the fabled Atlantis.

    The thing is, the United States itself used to be that very panacea. It had the correct underpinnings focused on freedom and liberty. It's just that over time, prosperity actually devalued the sacrifices of the Founding Fathers. It took the War of 1812 and then the Civil War to remind people of those values. Since then, however, America has only fought foreign wars. These insulate the general population from any true fight for freedom, enabling collectivist and populist cultures to creep in and establish a welfare state.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 1 month ago
    Second Try...

    If it existed the first visitors would be county inspectors followed by property tax assessors followed by....followed by....followed by and the State with it's own alphabet soup not the lease of which would be head count for any children..
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