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  • Posted by preimert1 10 years, 10 months ago
    I had the privilege of working on the line at the GM assembly plant in Doraville, GA the summer between my sophomore and junior years at Georgia Tech. I installed radios in every Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac for three hot months--one every minute and forty two seconds for 8.7 hrs a day. It took me about a week to get my body used to it, but pretty soon I had it down pat and made a few method improvements to where I could do it in less than a minute. It became like a game as the summer sped by and at $4.30/hr I made enough to buy my first used car.

    When I went back several years ago the plant stood empty--broken windows and pigeon crap over what few machines were left. Only ghosts of the noise and smells and fellow workers remained.
    So sad.
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  • Posted by zzdragon 10 years, 10 months ago
    As one who has been in the industrial auction business for 44 years I can tell you a lot about why companies close. Not in the order of importance.
    WW2 vets retiring. Selling their business because they didn’t want someone else running the company with their name over the door and the proceeds of the sale was their retirement fund.
    Unions.
    Upper management.
    Other companies buying the company for their product line and then moving it to their own factory.
    Obsolescence’s of the product
    Obsolescence’s of the equipment in the factory.
    Overseas competition.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      There's some info you can bite into boys. zzD is right in line with everything I've observed in my 60 years. That first point is so common in privately held companies that it's almost a disease. These folks started a small company where they did everything from purchasing to emptying the garbage and because it was a needed product or service they prospered. But at the end of their working years they just can't stand to see someone else running things. They are control freaks - that's what made them successful. Their solution is to just close the doors. I have three close friends who now live in FL who were the centerfold models for this path.

      It's their business and more power to them if they decide to pull the plug when there is a lot of life left to them to enjoy. Unfortunately, those employees who were not prepared for the change suffer, but they had the same opportunity as their boss.

      The second item, Unions, I don't even want to get started about. They are nothing short of extortion artists.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 10 months ago
        Hello Stargeeezer,
        I quite agree. I have observed all of those factors at work. After thirty plus years, I want to sell my business and retire to Florida! I can't find a buyer I can trust to take care of my people. I have long term employees who are producers. They need and deserve their jobs. The tool and die business is a dying trade. We are essential to the nation's security and manufacturing businesses, but we are not appreciated, or properly compensated in today's market. I can find people who would like to liquidate my assets or remove me from competition, but I can't stomach those options. I find myself in a quandary... my loyalty to those who have reciprocated may keep me here until my people are ready to retire also... They are only about five years behind me. I am not hiring any more, and have through attrition, reduced my workforce to the bare minimum. When the last few are ready to go, I am out of here. I have approached them with the option of taking over, but none of them want the management headaches, or have the capital. Financing has all but dried up. Banks that used to loan me tens of thousands on a handshake now want to attach everything I own regardless of my exemplary credit rating. Michigan is not the industrial magnet it once was... it has become more of a repellent...
        Regards,
        O.A.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          You going to join us "strikers"?????
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 10 months ago
            Good morning stargeezer,
            I have been on a partial strike for several years now. I have reduced my work force and efforts at growing the company, downsizing where I can. I will not work more than I must any longer, just to feed the parasites. At this point I am exploring all the possibilities. I would like to strike completely. If not for the people still in my employ and the wonderful customers and relations that depend upon me, I would liquidate tomorrow. I am tired of living in the darkness and long for sunny skies.
            Regards,
            O.A.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 10 years, 10 months ago
    Hypocritical? Walmart now speaking about US manufacture, when they have turned into a clearinghouse for Chinese goods over the last 20 years?
    Shake my head at people shopping at Walmart, buying cheap Chinese junk, with "Proud to be Union" shirts and bumper stickers.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 10 months ago
    I continue to see a lot of comments regarding Walmart. I do not see a problem with their business model, but I do see a problem with the government policies that make outsourcing so attractive. The outsourcing of factory jobs is due to policies of both nations involved. One interesting story is that of Simplicity lawn mowers and how they refused to reduce the quality of their product in order to produce competitively and continue to sell at Walmart. They eventually had to outsource despite their wishes to remain a made in the U.S.A. company. Lawn mowers had to become disposable like VCRs in order to compete. Unfortunately many of the jobs went overseas. Investigate "The Man Who Said No to Wal-Mart." Once done, you will find why most new mowers have such short lives. The ramifications vary from product to product, but sometimes the cost is in jobs and also penny wise and pound foolish since you will be buying replacements more often, and you may not have the same factory job you used to have that could afford the better product...
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  • Posted by $ Terrylutz3682 10 years, 10 months ago
    Walmart started the outsourcing to China. I believe in fair trade but many mix up fair trade with free trade. China subsidizes its industries in many ways with currency manipulation being the biggest. They under value their currency to get an unfair trade advantage. Our government let them get away with violating the trade agreements. Now China has amassed enough dollars that they now own us and we can not force them to abide by the agreements they made. Our government seems to do everything but their main purpose -protect the US against foreign interests.
    I groan every time I hear "where have all the jobs gone". My answer is --to China stupid.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
      I consider it Karma... all those auto workers back in the 70s who whined about people buying Japanese cars instead of American, but then went and bought Japanese electronics...
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      • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 9 months ago
        Yeah, and in the early '70s I was pulling down about $9k a year with a BSEE and 'those auto workers' kept going on strike to keep their incomes 2-3 times as much as mine. I had and still have no sympathy for their 'plight,' and if you look at the percentage of the total workforce that's unionized... over the decades,... it looks like the unions' opinions and attitudes have largely fallen by the wayside.

        My first car was a '69 GM car and it took me several years to discover and fix several manufacturing defects. One of my next cars was a '77 GM product and it took about three years to correct a design flaw that made the engine stall repeatedly and dangerously during warmup. And I fixed it.

        Car companies... and other industries... that lose market share because of shoddy design or manufacturing deserve exactly what happens to them... except bailouts.
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  • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 10 months ago
    A slick video but given that Wal-mart is producing it it strikes me as being a bit hypocritical. However, Wal-mart is merely responding to customer demands in importing so much stuff from overseas. People want goods and services at the best price and that is difficult to achieve with the moocher class here in the US. If Wal-mart is finding US Suppliers at a competative price, that must mean that the Moocher class is on the rise in places like China. It is apprapo as the name of their country already has "The Peolpes Republic" in it!
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    • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 10 years, 10 months ago
      The fact that WalMart made this ad makes perfect sense to me. WalMart is non-union and it was the unions that drove many of our jobs away.
      I will tell you a fact...WalMart is the largest employer in my town...period! Without it, many, many more people would be on Food Stamps and Welfare.
      They may not be perfect, but they're successful and they ARE helping the local economy.
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      • Posted by evlwhtguy 10 years, 10 months ago
        You are correct....they also, through their low pricing, provide a higher standard of living than would otherwise be possible without them. This is a fact that gets overlooked when people start pissing and moaning about Wal-mart and all the small businesses that they replaced. It is a fact that "main street" has been diminished by Wal-mart, but I can buy a shirt at Wal-mart for $15.00 that used to cost $30.00 at the mom and pop store on Main Street.
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        • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 9 months ago
          ... and the whiners and moochers will attack you for that, since you've now kept more of YOUR hard-earned cash and can spend it or invest it where YOU want, AND you're apparently satisfied (enough) with your purchase!

          They can't stand that!
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  • Posted by Scatcatpdx 10 years, 10 months ago
    I am a technician in lab the designs motherboards that will be made in China. I would with engineers in Oregon, India and Japan. It a global economy yet there still good jobs because free trade. Because of free trade I can afford new clothing when a piece wears out I can replace it unlike my made only in America forefather who bough second hand or patched it up.
    Dear factory you can stay closed I have a better safer and higher paying job without you and nobody can tell me differently. It call freedom in America, deal with it . Excuse me I need to pick something up at Walmart.
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    • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
      You are in a career that has thus far been untouched by wage lowering schemes. You are very fortunate. Wait until they finish importing people in your occupation or start moving your job overseas. I don't have anything against free trade that isn't designed to destroy labor.
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
        And wait until your skillset becomes out of date, or sickness strikes and you are forced out of the loop for a year or two. Then as you restart your life you discover that telling the rest of the world that you are far beyond it's influence is just not a valid response.

        Every industry is subject to business cycles. That's a fact of life. Scat may bot like that, may refuse to even acknowledge it's true, but time breaks down mountains too.

        Been there, done that.
        .
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
        Free trade has never "destroyed labor." Displaced it, yes, but it still exists.
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        • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
          It's ok if you limit labors ability to trade value for value but not if you limit businesses ability to trade value for value.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
            How do you figure? Workers are free to trade their labor for whatever someone will pay. Likewise, businesses are free to decline to pay one laborers requested wages in favor of another laborers request for wages. What about that is so difficult to understand?
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 10 months ago
    Considering the number of businesses Walmart has put out of business, i.e. Rubbermaid, that ad's a little ironic.
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    • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
      Did Rubbermaid go out of business? I purchased a trash can at Home Depot made in America, by them.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 10 months ago
        Here's a quote on the history between Walmart and Rubbermaid.

        "History has shown that suppliers suffer if they run afoul of Wal-Mart. Rubbermaid raised the prices it charged Wal-Mart in the mid-1990s because of an 80% jump in the cost of a key ingredient in its plastic containers. The retailer responded by giving more shelf space to lower-priced competitors, helping drive Rubbermaid into a 1999 merger with rival Newell, says John Mariotti, a former Rubbermaid executive. "Rubbermaid earned Wal-Mart's wrath by not giving it the best deal," he says."

        There are many other company's that have run afoul of Walmart.

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  • Posted by brs02 10 years, 10 months ago
    But isn't a factory job completely dehumanizing, it is so much better to collect the check I am owed by the government... Here's what I really don't get, the various forms of socialism, communism, etc. were all dependent on the worker. Has the new statist moved to a more fascist position requiring widespread economic dissonance and state dependence? Then what drives the state if their political goals are realized?
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Dehumanizing is the act of waiting for a handout check from government masters. The idea you are "owed" the check that is paid for by a person who choses to work at a job, earning their pay by their skill and incidentally, paying taxes that pay for your "check".

      Please explain why you feel you are owed a check for not producing? That's what I don't get.

      .
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    • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
      There is nothing dehumanizing about having a job that pays well enough to live so you can buy something from someone else and keep the gears well oiled to keep the machine in top working order.
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      • Posted by brs02 10 years, 10 months ago
        So you believe in the free market, but support the "living wage" campaign the left is using to divert attention from their numerous failings and scandals. Why wasn't this a campaign issue the first or second round for Zero? Because they don;t really care, it is a Red Herring.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
        The pay for a job, primarily, and I might argue even exclusively, must be related directly to the value that job provides. It doesn't matter whether it pays enough for a particularly laborer to live or buy things; if the cost drives the price up to the point where the business can't make a profit in the sale, or sufficient profit on sales to pay all the bills (including labor) and leave enough left over for business maintenance and growth, the job won't exist for long. And shouldn't.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 10 months ago
    It goes on and on. From the mighty factories to the Mom & Pop shops, we are becoming less of producers and more of consumers. Now, with Obamacare and the prevalent anti-business attitude in Washington, the deterioration of the American worker's future seems immanent..
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Exactly my concern Herb. I want jobs made for workers in this country who want to work. That's also WHY I'm torn over this. Workers here seem to expect to be paid like the CEO for doing work on par with the janitor. There's nothing wrong with janitors, we need those to, but they aren't going to be paid the same scale as the CEO.

      In AS, there came a time when the lines of workers were very, very long for people applying for jobs as janitors, sweeper and greasers, but nobody could be found who would or could step up and take a position of responsibility or a creative position. The skills had been trained out of the workforce. As I see it, today's high school graduates leave school ONLY fit to do one of a very few jobs - they can go to work at WalMart or it's cousins, they can enter the military if they have the ability, they can work for MacDonalds, or they go on to college.

      Todays colleges and universities are packed with kids who don't have a clue how to make a living. Because it's not taught. In 2005 I completed two degrees at a good private university in the midwest. As I was retired, my efforts were a journey of personal growth, not a effort to prepare for a job market. But I had plenty of opportunity to talk to the kids about what their future goals for employment. Frankly, I was shocked to find that the vast majority were planning to work for these same min. wage positions that were available to them before they spent $100k on school.

      As I got to know them better I also found out that most of these untethered souls were in school because Mom and Dad had worked and saved so that their kids could attend a good school. In short, they were in school to put off going to work.

      That was just a fraction of the waste I saw. There was also the intent of the school. In almost every department of that school, they were teaching people to be teachers, not grade school or high school teachers, they were training university professors. The field did not matter, the goal was to replicate themselves.

      I was studying Art and in this school, in the entire Fine Arts dept. there were 28 who graduated with me. Of that 28 there was a painting magor who got a job as a helper in a gallery for minimum wage, a girl who got a job at WalMart as a cake decorator, and I went into business for my self a couple years before graduating by opening my own studio and gallery. Those were the "successes" of the university. They made a huge deal of my studio in all their press for a couple years, but aside from the basic skills that were taught in the first year, the university had little to do with it. Nation wide there are fewer than two dozen art professors hired each year and most of these positions go to experienced professors.

      When I was in high school a few decades back, a boy graduating would have taken auto mechanics, welding, mechanical drawing, machine shop and wood working - at least one class in each area. And IF they found one that appealed to them they could take 3 or 4 more classes in order to develop some level of competence in the field. When they would graduate they could get a starting job in that industry because they could DO something. They could enter an apprenticeship to further their education and their pay would be based on their value to their employer.

      Today they leave school having no value at all. And they line up at the government feeding trough for housing, food stamps, transportation and more often than not, more tax dollar paid for re-education.

      Very sad.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
        They can enter the military if they meet the physical requirements - increasingly tough with these couch potato youngsters.

        I also think we're making a big mistake with pushing so many towards college. This has been a function of college degrees reaping more lifetime incomes, which had been true. Nowadays, we've got so many grads with useless degrees, 'cause the colleges needed to keep them there to keep reaping their tuition loan and federal grant money, that we've got so many with a sheepskin but no worthwhile skill. And we don't have people with vocational technical skills to run the machines in the factories. Apprenticeships aren't viable anymore due to min wage and union wage scales - you can't afford to pay someone these minimums for them to stand around observing the seasoned worker and develop their skills.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          Apprenticeships are still viable in some fields, notably fine arts and studio arts. In those, the artist provides a cot and food as a rule and a certain stipend while the apprentice helps in the studio. I had a couple apprentices that were actually paid $10 a hour for 40 hours a week. BOTH of those were the most troublesome people I ever had work for me. They felt that I owed them something more than I offered anyone else since they weren't paid by me.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 10 months ago
        To some extent, my experience parallels yours. I am probably a generation (or two) before you but it was true even then. I owned a retail business and half of every high school grad I interviewed for a part-time job couldn't work an electronic cash register that figured in the sales tax and change for you. When asked to sweep the floor, one kid asked, "Is this some kind of test?" I could go on, but I think I'm preaching to the choir.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
      At the end of Rome's Imperial period, ships sailed into Roman ports laden with all sorts of exotic goods.... and sailed out with nothing but gold in their holds.
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  • Posted by wiggys 10 years, 10 months ago
    the government is taking great pains to NOT allow this to be resurrected. also walmart talks a big story about spending 50 billion a year for the next 10 years for American made product. the know the factories do not exist so they will ultimately say we tried. but they are a major reason so many are closed.
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    • Posted by brs02 10 years, 10 months ago
      Doesn't Walmart represent a new more profitable way of ding things? How may do they employ? More efficient delivery of goods and services. I know let's raise the pay the 15/hr week high school student... that will fix it.
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  • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
    I hope I put this in the right place. A very short 60sec video that has some very interesting photography. Right up to the last few seconds. WW has destroyed more family businesses than they will ever replace with minimum wage jobs.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
      I lament the demise of the family farm as well. But the reality is that "family businesses" are not efficient. It is a truism of life that the more efficient will displace the less efficient. If it were not Sam Walton, it would have been Joe Schmoe. Purchasing in bulk and massive distribution systems were going to happen, it was inevitable. As was the displacement of manufacturing to lower cost labor areas. Other efficiencies will cause this too to be overcome as labor becomes less a portion of production costs and shipping and material costs increase.
      It was not WM that caused the demise of the American factory, it was inevitability, as it is inevitable that manufacturing will return to America. But not necessarily the same level of employment.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 10 months ago
        I'm going to present another take on things: this represents what Adam Smith would have deemed an opportunity for labor arbitrage. In a system with the free movement of labor and production (such as a global economy), it isn't so much about inevitability as it is relative wages and therefore production costs. There are definitely elements of efficiencies of scale to consider, but most especially in manufacturing, labor costs tend to be one of the highest input costs and they are variable costs. The quickest way to make a buck is to decrease your manufacturing costs by substituting variable costs for fixed costs.

        I would also point out that the corporate farms are the primary recipients of money from the annual Farm Bill, so the takeover of the family farm isn't nearly so much efficiency-related as it is subsidization-related.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          take a look at the farm bill. very little of that figure goes to the farmer. mostly it pays for food stamps for people who believe they are owed them just because they are special.

          the part that does go to farm industries can be split between dairy product producers (the next step or two above farmer) and processing centers that are to labor intensive to ever be profitable, except the health of the nation requires OJ in the winter. the family (and large operation) farmers get very, very little of that entire amount.
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        • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 9 months ago
          blarman, that reminds me of one of the stories about the first Japanese VCRs... When they decided to compete, they designed or copied or whatevered and created their production lines for assembly.

          They basically put one person at each stage of the assembly line where any one component was plugged in, screwed down or added.

          After they understood each of the steps, they methodically automated EVERY step, basically one step at a time, until there were virtually NO people on the assembly line at all.

          So people in the US got mad at the Japanese for that. Moochers.
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      • Posted by Argo 10 years, 10 months ago
        What I have never been able to understand, nor have I ever heard an explanation regarding the move of manufacturing to lower cost labor areas. Is it not true that lower cost labor is a function of labor productivity? If so then moving to low cost labor countries only gets you low productivity. In addition, companies' costs are not led by labor but by materials. So it seems to me the only reason to move manufacturing would be to access lower cost materials. What am I missing?
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
          To expand on rlewellen, while productivity is lower, the cost of labor is even lower still. I once was in charge of trying to introduce construction equipment into China. The value proposition just wasn't there, as it was much more cost effective to employ a hundred workers with shovels than to buy one backhoe.
          When I worked in Mexico, the machinery was more antiquated, but when you pay someone $3 per hour vs. $27 per hour you can take up to 9 times as long/more workers before you are just break-even. Of course, you've got to figure in shipping costs and other costs (like kh mentions).
          Don't get me started on the effect of labor. I designed parts that a supply chain guy got a big bonus over moving to Mexico, only to find that the way they were designed was specifically to take advantage of machine capabilities that were not available in Mexico. So the whole thing flopped and all the quality and manufacturability improvements were lost, for a product that had about 7% of the total product cost due to labor. But the moron still got his big bonus.
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          • Posted by lmarrott 10 years, 10 months ago
            My company recently built a new campus in the US and was "simultaneously" building one in India. I think they intended to have the opening staggered by about 3 months. However we have been in the new office in the US for a year and a bit and the other office in India isn't completed. When we discuss why a lot of what we heard is what you have just said. It's a whole lot of people trying to do things that a machine would assist with here in the US.
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            • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
              I worked at a company that made rust inhibitors. Rust inhibitors contain some nasty acids that gobble up the moisture the metal is exposed to.There was a manager in India that had his employee put his arms in the inhibitor for hours to see if he had a skin reaction. I guess it's cheaper there.
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          • Posted by Argo 10 years, 10 months ago
            Labor costs are not the highest expense for manufacturing business'. Any financial statement will show about 60% of costs are material. While I agree the reduction in labor costs is easier, the real gains can come from a reduction in material costs because it is larger. A 10% reduction in material costs is far greater than a 10% reduction in labor costs. The mistake often made is the labor cost of one piece or product is greater than the material costs, but this ignores the 100's to thousands of pieces made. Eventually the material costs will exceed the labor cost as more parts or pieces are made. Wages of labor are based on the productivity of the worker. He can only be paid based on what he can produce in a given amount of time. If time is money, then taking nine hours to do a one hour job will not make you competitive and the business thinking like that will fail.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
              Yes, but once a product is designed, it is difficult to take out much of the material costs. It is, however, rather easy to redesign processes and/or add capital equipment to reduce the labor content. Believe me, it is my business.
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              • Posted by Argo 10 years, 10 months ago
                To the contrary, the implementation of a Lean Operating System can effectively drive down material costs by removing the inherent waste in the processing of a product. Ford did an analysis a number of years back asking the question how many pounds of material does it take to make a 2,500 lb car. The answer they found was 50,000 pounds! Believe me because it is my business!
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
                  Mine as well (DfSS MBB), and what you describe does not reduce the material in the product. That takes redesign. Even changing the shipping containers, dunnage, storage containers, consumables takes considerable redesign.
                  Rarely has hidden material costs been the rationale for moving production to low labor cost countries, which is where this started.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
              I'm not too certain that a blanket statement like that can be justified. Some industries are horrifically labor intensive, yet material costs are very minimal. The industry I operated for several years was one such, I'm a potter. My material cost were around 12% with a 15% firing cost per item, business overhead accounted for around 12% and the remaining 61% was labor.
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            • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
              Here is another part of the equation on material cost. We sell China lets say natural gas and they pay us with kool aid, the cost of natural gas goes up here but, only rises slightly in China.
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      • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
        There was a company that made socks in Tennessee for Walmart. There is not alot of room for profit or competition in socks because 97% of the world's socks are made in China. We have free trade with a country that we can't compete with. We need socks I would happily pay and extra dollar for a pair of socks made In America. We need tarriffs.
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        • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
          Do we? Or do we need to stop granting most favorite trading nation status to an aggressive communist nation?
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
            I'm with you. I'm surprised a person on this site would be advocating for tariffs. That would be antithetical to everything that AS was advocating.
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            • Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago
              I have no issue with tariffs on imports from China, but not for rlewellen's reasons. I favor trade sanctions and tariffs against China for their well documented human abuses. They are an aggressive communist nation well known for their cruelty to their own people. Free trade with them does nothing but bring us down to their level.
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
                Might be picking at nits, but I would prefer a sanction not a tariff. If the nation is committing atrocities, then it should not be traded with at all.
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          • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 10 months ago
            If China is adding Tariffs to US goods, or if the Chinese gov't is subsidizing their industry such that it creates an unfair advantage, then YES, we slap their goods with a tariff.
            I actually don't care about their human rights. If the people won't stand up for their own rights then who are we to do it for them. I feel the same about the US helping to liberate a people that won't liberate themselves first (aka Iraq, Afghanistan).
            You didn't see the French taking the lead in American Revolution.
            The only reason why we let the Chinese get away with this is because we need their money to fund the moochers in this country.
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            • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 10 months ago
              No. Even if the other guy has a tariff against you, it is still in your self-interest to have an open door. Not only is it morally asserted, game theory shows it to be mathematically true. (RobertF wrote: "... then YES, we slap their goods with a tariff.") We versus They is collectivism, which is easy to invalidate.

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            • Posted by mccannon01 10 years, 10 months ago
              RobertFl: I pretty much agree with you here, but need to add something to the discussion. I've lived and worked in China for an American company in the past. Capitalism is alive and well on the Chinese street (so's the mini skirt) and is working for the people and the government doesn't want to mess this up. The standard of living is far above the old communist rule and the people want to keep it that way. IMHO, the biggest problem in trade between our countries is the artificial currency imbalance held in place by the Chinese government. Next is some tariff action going on. Example, why would a $16,000 Harley Davidson in the US cost $40,000 in Beijing? S & H? Nah.

              A spin off on one of your statements is I was disgusted by the fact US blood was shed to "liberate" Kuwait from Saddam Hussein and put a MONARCHY back on the throne! HELLO, WTF??? I thought it was a good idea to boot Saddam, but put in a constitutional republic at the very least!
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              • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
                I don't think that was one of the options.

                The only way to install a Constitutional Republic would be to make Kuwait an American protectorate and appoint an American governor-general...
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                • Posted by mccannon01 10 years, 10 months ago
                  Hi Hiraghm, I don't know what deals were made behind the scenes during the Kuwaiti war, so maybe a constitutional government was or was not on the table. I just found it disgusting our military was bleeding for a bunch of Kuwaiti royals of military age that were partying it up in various cities in the world. If it wasn't for all the Islamic crazies, an American protectorate may have worked, too, instead of a monarchy.
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              • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 10 months ago
                I was OK with booting Saddam. As soon as we saw the Iraqi people weren't going to lift a finger we should have left.
                Make no mistake, If China wanted/needed to, they would bring the Hammer down on its people (not that were too far from that).
                But, yes, it's being manipulated and we're OK with it. In the mean time, China now has an Aircraft killer missile, but, we're all best bud's.
                I do my level best to buy American made/sourced when I can. Even if it's Union labor (mainly because there isn't much choice there.)
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                • Posted by mccannon01 10 years, 10 months ago
                  Tough call on your first statement because the Iraqis that may have helped us the most felt betrayed after we didn't help them as a follow up to the Kuwaiti war. Saddam slaughtered them by the thousands as soon as he realized no-one would help them. Now it appears the moon-god grovelers are going to take over the country whether we're there or not, so I'm coming into agreement with you and it's time to say goodbye.

                  I don't think our enemy will be China, but we should never take our eye off them. The old Chinese communist guard is dying out and becoming irrelevant. Odd that as America becomes more socialist/communist and serf like, China is becoming more capitalist and free. With a trend like that it will become eventually inevitable that they could kick our butts if they chose to.
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        • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
          Why?

          Why would you pay MORE for something just so someone who lives in your proximity can "have a job"?

          You realize your mentality is the same mentality as minimum wage? Pay more for the same stuff just because. Which increases the price of everything, which means minimum wage will "need" to go up AGAIN so those "poor" people can afford the basics again because those basics are so expensive to produce because minimum wage is so high, etc...
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          • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
            Your mentality is the same as the crony capitalists in Atlas Shrugged. Yours is the mentality of the people that want to profit off of nothing like welfare sponges you both claim the right to profit off of someone else by not adding value of your own.
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            • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
              Again, you make zero sense. You have the gall to call me a crony capitalist because I would have no problem paying someone halfway across the world to do a job (so long as they can do it well)? I'm going to assume you didn't mean it like that and give you the benefit of the doubt before I fly off on a rant.
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              • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
                You already did fly off on a rant when you addressed me. If you are gonna dish it out you better be able to take it. Should I call you a slave trader?
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                • Posted by barwick11 10 years, 10 months ago
                  HA! Ok d-bag, whatever... You want to call me names, go for it. Regardless, you *make no sense* in what you write. Your words, how you put them together, do not form a coherent thought that another human being can understand.

                  When you can write your words so they make sense and I can understand what you are trying to say, then I will respond. Try punctuation for a start... take for example "Yours is the mentality of the people that want to profit off of nothing like welfare sponges you both claim the right to profit off of someone else by not adding value of your own"

                  Put some punctuation in there, maybe add a few words, I'll re-read it, and maybe it will make more sense.

                  Not only that, what I kinda somewhat sorta think what you are *trying* to say, has no relevance to what I said in the first place.
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