This is how a Republican does something for free

Posted by $ WillH 10 years, 10 months ago to Education
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This is our governor's plan to provide free secondary education provided to students graduating high school in Tennessee without costing the taxpayers anything!

Now, I know there are a couple of people on this site that like to legislate morality, so not everyone will like it, but I think it is great!
SOURCE URL: http://www.wbbjtv.com/news/local/Governor-Says-High-School-Graduates-Will-Get-Free-College-Education-243434161.html


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  • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 10 months ago
    Nothing is free. Should funds be dumped into an industry that has increased prices at triple the rate of all other industries? Better to ask why have costs gone up so much. US colleges that don’t accept Federal loans have tuition roughly half of their similarly-ranked peers. Throwing scarce resources into an industry that has a recent history of producing a lower quality product at much higher cost is a bad idea.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Perhaps I should have prefaced it saying that the Tennessee Lottery was created as a means of supporting the educational system to begin with.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 10 months ago
        No problem, WillH. Probably most here realize that many states have lotteries that are supposed to do that. The more money governments get the more they waste. Often they appear initially to have the people's best interests, but concentration of power (via money) is insidious. Another problem is that state run schools are just propaganda mills, teaching the young to follow the rules and never teaching how to think critically and rationally, but that's another issue.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          Our state is a bit different in that we have a balanced state budget and the lottery has been used for the schools just like it was intended. Then again we are also not a “progressive” state, so that might have a lot to do with it.

          I agree with the statement about public schools. I use my youngest daughter as an example. She is a 1st grade homeschooler. She just completed a battery of placement testing in order for us to make sure she was headed the right direction. She tested at grade level 3.2 in reading comprehension and 2.6 in mathematics, the only tested subjects for 1st graders. In this state $600 - $800 a year average is spent to educate homeschoolers (We will come in right at $550) while $8,000 - $10,000 a year is spent on each student by the public school system. There is some obvious inefficiency in the public school system not to mention how many of them confuse their own political views with their job as educators.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 10 months ago
      Good point freedom. I 'd like to add lottery proceeds are due to the state restricting private lottery from operating in the same way, creating an artificial market for the state. Kids are not entitled to college. Sounds nice, but I don 't gamble. :)
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 10 months ago
    It is a discussion we have had before. As khalling noted here, although many libertarians including Ayn Rand suggested lotteries as a non-coercive way to raise state revenues, the fact remains that it puts them in the gambling business - which they regulate and suppress. Not just anyone can run their own lotteries.

    Also, as pointed out here by FreedomForAll, governments just waste what moneys (and resources) they do have. That is a deeper issue. Governments do not make ECONOMIC decisions; they make POLITICAL decisions, which of necessity are malinvestments.

    (On the side issue of law and law enforcement, we make the one exception for the one task for which the government does have a moral mandate.)

    The explosion in government funding of education has not raised the salaries of professors or created more jobs for them; we do not have more and better college libraries, certainly. It is the ADMINISTRATIONS that have benefited... no surprise there...
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 10 months ago
    What is so wrong about having to pay for your own education to begin with? Isn't it a value for value exchange?
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      The governor had an interview yesterday in which he gave more detail on his plan. He said those benefiting would be required to perform community service. He did not say how much, but that requirement will be there in his proposal. There may be value for value in this afterall. Time will tell. I think it's worth keeping an eye on to see how it goes.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 10 months ago
        Ok will but you have to admit this is soo inefficient. The govt raises funds in a way it has made illegal for private companies to pursue. It then earmarks those funds for only certain categories of its budget. It then finds itself with a surplus so it proposes a new benefit for one group which profits one industry to the exclusion of the rest of the state. It then justifies all of this by saying the result is for the common good of the state. Meanwhile a bridge will topple because there werent enough dollars in the transportation budget, infrastructure being a primary function of govt.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          I have no issue with saying it is inefficient, or that private companies and people should be able to have their own lotteries. I am also sure that other things could have been done with the money such as tax breaks , but I think this is a better thing that what most states are doing with their lotteries.

          We also do not have to worry about things like bridges falling down, at least not state owned bridges, as the state has a most unusual thing these days, a balanced budget. Of course Obama was in Tennessee last week, so that might have unbalanced it. LOL
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  • Posted by NoMoreObama 10 years, 10 months ago
    The last statistics I checked had 21% of people completing college. What about the other 79%? Not everyone is created equally mentally; not everyone is suited for college. My plumber didn't go to college and he makes good money. He learned his skills through an apprenticeship and much of Europe uses a similar model: apprenticeships for students who don't have the skills to complete college. (You can challenge your placement.)
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  • Posted by brs02 10 years, 10 months ago
    Using the gambling habits of the ignorant masses to fund additional educationgreat... how far does 2 years of community college ge tyou these days?

    As far as your legislating morality comment.... every law and regulation is an expression of morality
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 10 years, 10 months ago
      Lots of thigs, brs02. Culinary, medical, mechanical, HVAC, and bunches of other trades and professions can be entered through a two year program.
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  • Posted by $ Snezzy 10 years, 10 months ago
    What if all those college students learn proper mathematics, including probability and statistics? The Lottery is a tax on bad mathematics. Will the cat be out of the bag?

    No worry. For every student who learns that the only way to win the Lottery is not to play, there will still be a thousand others willing to pay $1000 to win $600. In my state it takes a lot of extra time to pay for gas when someone in front of me is busy deciding which lottery ticket to buy. There must be two dozen different choices.
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  • Posted by straightlinelogic 10 years, 10 months ago
    The government has dreamed up a way to extract more money from its citizens to fund an activity in which it has no business being involved. Will someone on Galt's Gulch, of all places, give me a logical explanation of why government should be providing education, for free or not?
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 10 years, 10 months ago
      A well educated populace is necessary for America to work. The current crop of problems can be traced to the failure of many public school systems.
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  • Posted by TheOldMan 10 years, 10 months ago
    Anything free is worth what you paid for it.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Most often true. There is an update. The governor had an interview yesterday in which he gave more detail on his plan. He said those benefiting would be required to perform community service. He did not say how much, but that requirement will be there in his proposal. There may be value for value in this afterall. Time will tell.
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      • Posted by plusaf 10 years, 10 months ago
        So, his 'free education' comes at the cost of conscription, or should we say, 'slavery'? :)
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          No, it's called value for value. If you want something, in this case education, you pay for it via work as a currency instead of money.

          Remember kids can still pay and go to these schools just like always. If a child wants schooling and they cannot pay for it why not allow them to work. It's better than making it totally free.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 10 months ago
    (Disclaimer: I hold both an undergraduate degree as well as an MBA from a respected University.)

    I think there is a deeper question that needs to be addressed to ALL in higher education:

    Why has society deemed it necessary to get a four-year degree in order to be successful in today's world?

    It seems to me to be more a barrier to entry to the middle class than a legitimately valuable tool. There are a huge number of jobs out there - especially in trades, auto repair, and construction - where an apprenticeship is vastly superior practical education in comparison to a four-year institution. I question the need for every high school graduate to obtain a four-year degree. How much true value is being derived from the system for the student?

    Now one can quickly point out (and not without justification) that our primary educations have dropped in efficacy to the point that many high school graduates are barely passing. What is the point of sending students like that to college at all?

    I had a friend who was from Germany and we discussed the disparity in the education systems. There, "high school" was over by age 16 and students would either move to a trade school for specific training or move on to university for extensive education in engineering, law, etc. At the time, I dismissed the system out of my own ignorance, but looking at it now, I wonder if there isn't some merit there. The only students even considered for "university" are the top students: B+ average or better. That being said, noone pays for their own education either, however.

    I guess I look back at the late 1800's/early 1900's and the education systems in place then: they were run locally, age did not necessarily determine grade level, and results were everything. Teachers were paid by students' parents in most cases and held accountable to them. University was a major accomplishment and reserved only for those with needs for higher education pursuits. Training in trades was the prevalent form of job-related education.

    I compare that to the modern era where K-6 is barely more than organized daycare and indoctrination and 7-12 isn't much better. Higher education is grossly expensive due to both subsidies and too much demand and has diverged from being learning-centered to being entertainment/sport-centered.

    Does my MBA look impressive on my resume? Yup. Have I actually used it much in my position in IT? Eh. Most of the stuff covered in class specifically related to IT was either stuff I already knew (and the teachers knew it) or stuff that was outdated. To me, an IT trade school makes a lot of sense.

    My brother also recently graduated with a degree in psychology - but works as a warehouse tech. Without a doctorate, about the closest employment in his field is that of a social worker - a thankless job that makes less than he makes now but without the fun of driving a forklift (his words)!

    So I have to question the efficacy and value of the whole higher education system. To me, there is a glut of educated fools with degrees that mean nothing. I can't really celebrate "job requirement inflation"! (yes, please help me come up with a better term)
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 10 years, 10 months ago
      Question asked: "Why has society deemed it necessary to get a four-year degree in order to be successful in today's world?"

      Answer: Society has made no such requirement.

      Human resources departments have fallen all over themselves to hire "qualified" people and certainly if someone has a degree the HR folks don't have to justify when that part of things when they recommend a hire.

      It relieves department heads, floor supervisors, foremen, etc. from all responsibility of actually assessing a candidate for actual qualifications and attitudes.

      Used to be college included leadership. Not anymore.

      Only the very few exclusive colleges offer the kind of networking that can keep folks in the 1%. Everyone else gets caught in the 99%.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
    This might be how a Republican provides "free" post secondary education, but it certainly isn't what a libertarian would do. Adding more "free" money only encourages the institutions to keep raising their tuition, since there is so much easy money.
    Government interference in the payment of higher education has been the principle cause for the astronomical increase in costs. If the governor truly wanted to benefit his state, he'd eliminate all government funding of post secondary education, and provide a tax credit for all persons aged 18-24 to be used in whatever way they choose.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
    "Now, I know there are a couple of people on this site that like to legislate morality, so not everyone will like it, but I think it is great! "

    Lemme ask you a question:
    Do you think legislating against murder and rape are "legislating morality"?
    No? Then stop being a hypocrite.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 10 months ago
      interesting comment. I'm against legislating morality in which the offense does not include the use of force. Any legislation that stops you from making your own decisions that do not involve the use of force against another human are inherently evil.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
        Including those decisions that are not made out of rational thought, but emotional need...

        "evil"? Why, khalling... that's a religious term.
        You may not like such legislation, but, objectively, it can be neither pious nor evil.

        I "choose" to gamble. My gambling addiction leads me to gamble away my paycheck, repeatedly, so my wife and children end up starving and/or on the street. Yeah, that never happens; gambling never hurt nobody.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 10 months ago
          They're free to do that and I have never supported the state being in the lottery business. Evil is not just a mystical reference. Profoundly immoral and manevolent. Nope religion doesn 't have the trademark.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
            "immoral"... another religious term...
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            • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 10 months ago
              Not at all, but highly subjective? Yes. One can fling the word around, but without a point of reference, its meaning can be almost anything!

              One can take immoral to mean 1) not ascribing to a generally accepted moral code (religious or otherwise),2) expressly violating such a moral code, or 3) merely differing from a prospective moral code. Immoral is just contrary to being moral. What should be the question is how one chooses his/her basis for their particular morality.

              If one lives in a totalitarian regime, are not the acts of the totalitarian moral? Those who disagree do so because they have a different viewpoint of what constitutes morality, do they not?

              I wouldn't worry about inferring meaning in such a nebulous term as "moral" or "immoral" until one has sufficiently described or defined the rules under discussion.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      No. I will break it down simple to you. I think you can do whatever you want so long as you do not hurt anyone else. There is nothing hypocritical about that.

      I figured there would be a couple of people on here that would curse the lottery as a form of gambling and blame all the rot in society on it. The might then scream that it should be banned, and anyone who ever bought a ticket be drawn and quartered, racked, burned at the stake, gassed, drugged, and finally shot.
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      • Posted by Lucky 10 years, 10 months ago
        WillH. I just happen to be in a relaxed mood (too much?) so offer the following thought on your last sentence. With a few severe laws, and that kind of punishment, government could sell tickets. There would be so much demand it could replace taxes. Imperial Rome did it successfully for many decades, before collapse.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 10 months ago
        Will
        say it ain 't so that you buy those heinous scratch offs. If there 's two things I hate it is 1. paying for fuel inside and 2. Being behind a customer buying those damn things and making me wait!
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      • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
        Will, this sounds good now. Are the state workers in Tennessee in a union? Once the government gives it to people they believe they are entitled to it. The government rarely takes it away. When the cost goes through the roof taxes will go up.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          It's too early to tell. Right now the lottery, which of course is not a tax, can more than afford the program. I do not know if the result of this will be a uncontrolled draining on the lottery, a lowering of winnings by those who win the lottery, or if the program will succeed just fine.
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          • Posted by rlewellen 10 years, 10 months ago
            They will probably use tax money rather than lowering the winnings.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
              Says who? TN is running a balanced budget as it is. There is also nothing to say the cost will go up. Remember this is being done with community colleges and tech schools. Places like Vanderbilt and UT will not be involved at this point. The government does enough crappy things without us assuming this will be one of them without at least hearing out the final proposal.
              If the lottery is paying a sustainable bill under a negotiated contract costs should be well within what is anticipated. We don’t have those details yet, and in my opinion it is premature to rule it will fail without all the facts.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 10 months ago
        What is hypocritical is your applying the label "morality" to it, as if there can be no opposition to drugs or gambling or any other activity *you* decide doesn't harm anyone but the individual, unless that opposition is irrational and/or religion based.

        Well, guess what? I'm not opposed to gambling, but to pretend that it doesn't ever harm anyone besides the one who gambles is naive in the extreme. Like alcohol, illicit drugs or any other addiction. Your hypocrisy lies in the "morality" label.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          No one, including myself, was pretending that gambling never hurts anyone. Like most things, when taking to the extreme it can be very dangerous to a person and their family.

          I am also not the judge of what is and is not moral. My statement was more of a disclaimer that you and another member might object and say everyone in the state was now on a freight train bound for hell because of it. I attempting to forestall this turning into a religious debate like so many other topics have lately.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
            You are in fact a judge of what is moral and what is not. You might not impose those judgments on others, but you make them nonetheless.
            Morality doesn't have to devolve into a religious discussion, but since religion primarily deals with morality, it tends to drift that way quickly.
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    • Posted by Boborobdos 10 years, 10 months ago
      Hiraghm asks: "Do you think legislating against murder and rape are "legislating morality"?"

      Has nothing to do with "morality." It has to do with a SOCIAL CONTRACT made among a bunch of folks who say, "I won't rape or kill your kin if you don't hurt mine. BTW, don't steal either." Good rules to live by. Not "morality" just common sense.






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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 10 months ago
    OK used the exact same argument when they adopted the lottery scheme just a few years ago, only for K-12.
    Year before last our local school received the grand allocation of $700. Where do you suppose the rest went?
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 10 months ago
    Yeah the biggest flaw is government makes the promise today, and they'll never cancel the program. When the lottery runs out of money people won't accept cutting this program.
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 10 months ago
    "10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc" Marx and Engels Communist Manifesto.

    Both parties have been taken over by the socialists..

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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 10 months ago
    All this will do is create more career students at the cost to the tax payer. If they want to do this, then it should be such that IF you graduate with a useful degree, then maybe the state pays the cost.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Did you read the article? This entire program will cost the taxpayers $0.00. It is using proceeds from the TN state lottery, which was created to support and promote education in the state.
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      • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 10 months ago
        I live in Nashville. It's not a matter of, "if it's fully funded", right now. It will be FREE and it will crowd the colleges with people looking for something FREE. Then, there won't be enough money to cover that cost, and THEN the tax payer will have to subsides it.
        OR the colleges won't be big enough to accommodate all the new found students, and tax dollars will have to be spent to build more colleges.
        Neither the lottery, nor tax dollars should pay for someone wanting to kill time in the pursuit of flower arranging, or basket weaving, or interpretive dance. Select a major in a field that's in demand, successfully graduate, and then this is a fruitful use of funds.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          Maybe it will. Look, not only is this the first time it has been tried in TN it's the first time it has been tried in the country. Right now it is only a proposal by the governor. Don’t you think we should at least wait and see what the final product is before making predictions? We already know this will cover only community colleges and tech schools. Not too many of them waste time with some of the dumb courses they have at UT.

          I am not saying this will or won’t work. I am just saying it is interesting and worth finding out more about.
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          • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 10 months ago
            It may very well have good intentions, but these things rarely work as aspected.
            The better plan with this money, and would be easier to adopt, use that Lottery money, as it's available, to pay TN residents Student loans, of those who have already graduated. THAT'S incentive to graduate. Hit the mark, the loans are paid off, or reduced.
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 10 months ago
    There's a lot we don't know about this that would really be required in order to make a reasoned response.

    How many students do you have that graduate from high school who cannot go to college today?
    What is your high school dropout rate?
    What about students who transfer into Tenn from other states?

    If a majority of your students manage to go to college without your assistance, I'd say you just don't need to go there. Also if your high-school dropout rate is higher than the national average, I'd say you need to spend money getting kids to reach for THT golden ring. Treating students from your state in one way - by giving them a free education, yet treating transfer students as second class by charging them much more will cost you state more than just money, brain power will stay away.
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    • -1
      Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 10 months ago
      all irrelevant.
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      • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 10 months ago
        Take a look at the budget for the state of TN. They are balanced budget wise and have money in the bank that they want to return to the people.

        They could do that by building more "public" buildings they don't need or by giving themselves raises they have not deserved. Their proposed solution is to give kids a education. Could the money be spent elsewhere? Yep. That's why he is proposing this, s their citizens can talk about it.

        BTW, the roads in TN are some of the best in the country. The school system ranks pretty high. Their public health program is efficient and effective, I have a niece who is a special needs child and the help the state has offered her and the family is remarkable in scope and vale to the "client".

        If these things weren't in order I'd suggest they have other priorities, but they seem to be making things work, which is a far cry from my own state of IL which is a total mess.
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