The Nature of Force: (a dare to the trolls.)
Posted by overmanwarrior 12 years ago to Philosophy
As one of the books I picked up the other day I bought Ayn Rand's Capitalism: The Unknown Idea. I had not read this book before. In fact, I haven't read any of her nonfiction books. I put many other books in front of them. But, upon reading, I came across this quote:
"If one knows that the good is objective--i.e., determined by the nature of reality, but to be discovered by man's mind--one knows that an attempt to achieve the good by physical force is a monstrous contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying man's capacity to recognize the good, i.e., his capacity to value."
Now, that written in 1965. Who in their right mind can say that what she has said is not true. I'm specifically addressing the looters who troll this site looking for ways to discredit Ayn Rand. Point out the false premise in her statement if you can.
Give it your best shot. Make a valid argument. I find that statement 100% true in every way.
"If one knows that the good is objective--i.e., determined by the nature of reality, but to be discovered by man's mind--one knows that an attempt to achieve the good by physical force is a monstrous contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying man's capacity to recognize the good, i.e., his capacity to value."
Now, that written in 1965. Who in their right mind can say that what she has said is not true. I'm specifically addressing the looters who troll this site looking for ways to discredit Ayn Rand. Point out the false premise in her statement if you can.
Give it your best shot. Make a valid argument. I find that statement 100% true in every way.
I think she is considering a world in which all human beings have the right to reason and discovery and we should not impose good on them when left to their own devices they will arrive at the same good we have...as good is objective (there is A truth and it is discoverable).
The problem with this is we are living in a world of good and EVIL. There are many people who have absolutely no desire to be good. Given the freedom to seek and find what is good and right, they will instead use their freedom to murder, steal, lie, cheat, etc.
i.e. They don't care about the quest for truth and good. Society necessarily must erect laws to stand in opposition to these people, hire judges to pronounce them guilty, build jails to house them, and hire executioners to kill them.
Evil is a self-limiting proposition.
A non-free country against a free country will lose ultimately. If everyone becomes a thief or murderer you will run out of victims. same is true with consumerism. There must be producers
I'm not sure what you're getting at with "Evil is a self-limiting proposition." Are you suggesting that government ought not restrain it as it will die out on its own if left to run amok?
"The basic political principle of the Objectivist ethics is: no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. No man—or group or society or government—has the right to assume the role of a criminal and initiate the use of physical compulsion against any man. Men have the right to use physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. The ethical principle involved is simple and clear-cut: it is the difference between murder and self-defense. A holdup man seeks to gain a value, wealth, by killing his victim; the victim does not grow richer by killing a holdup man. The principle is: no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force."
(Virtue of Selfishness, Ayn Rand)
give a girl a break Lionel! it's Friday night and happy hour
The book itself is great. I am shocked that I haven't ran across this stuff earlier, but I'm happy they are available now. When you get to a certain point in life, and you figure these things out through living life, you don't need a book to tell you anything. But its nice to read that somebody else came up with these ideas from a different time and place and knowing that in hindsight she was right about everything. For me, it only validates the argument because when she first wrote these books the ideas were theory, and I can see why people would be skeptical. But now they are facts and we have measured results. They cannot be disputed. So I invite the trolls here to engage in conflict. Lets go. Throw out a refute on that statement based on collective mentality.
when I first read it, I was still in college. and so somewhat unshaped by all the ideas in the book. for example, I worked, but not for myself. I do not believe I totally formed ah-ha s about so many of the concepts in this little book, until I did work for myself.
In Atlas Shrugged, for many years after reading it several times, I could not agree with Rand on funding science. a cornerstone of my young life was seeing men on the moon. I just would not agree with her that NASA should not have existed as a part of the govt. I finally came to agree on this point when my children were going through school. for me, anyway, life experiences changed me but I had the influence of her books most of my adult life.
I'm still reading Capitalism, but so far I agree with everything except how blunt she is at times. But the content is very good. I can't blame her for her presentation. It just made her an easy target for people who don't have the courage to deal with the truth.
I have read most of Rand's books. I have yet to read the "Romantic Manifesto" and "We the living.” I have, however, watched "We the Living" the movie many times. I think you will find her non-fiction works quite interesting.
Good luck hunting trolls.
Regards,
O.A.
But where are the trolls!!!!!
Premise #2: A mother that will not feed or clothe or shelter her children because she's much to busy making meth. Shall we apply force here, or just let her figure it out on her own?
If you see a guy doing 100MPH down the highway, do you want the police to pull the guy over and give him a ticket?
Or should we just let him keep doing 100MPH until he figures out that speeding is bad on his own?
If I wreck into someone else at 100 MPH that would cause some serious property damage, so I would only do so if the profit outweighed the risk. If I bring harm to someone else with my action by infringing on the rights of someone else, then I've lost my ability to defend my property by infrining on someone else. But its not for some white knuckled wimp to decide that my speed is too great because it exceeds their limitations.
Now, that should get some discussion going. : ) Come on, where are the liberal nut jobs today? I want to hear more about how great movies like 2001 Space Odyssy is compared to Atlas and what John Galt would or would not have done if locked outside a space ship (its and inside story). Where are the bold proclimations?
And, for the sake of making it more interesting, lets raise the speed to 200MPH.
http://moller.com/dev/
I've been saving my pennies. If only the government would get out of his way.
Fuel type Ethanol
Operational ceiling 36,000 ft
Endurance 5.9 hours
Range @ 131 mph (21.3 mpg) 805 miles
Cost: ????
Shall we just let him drive 30 miles under the limit until he figures out on his own that he's creating a safety hazard for everyone else, or shall we have the police pull him over and explain it to him?
If you are sharing the road with others, certainly there needs to be some basic rules to govern our actions, so we do not endanger others. I can live with keep to the right and yield to faster traffic, like on the Autobahn. The police strictly enforce and ticket the slower drivers for obstructing traffic there.
Regards,
O.A.
That's the only point I'm making. Sometimes you just cannot wait for people to come to their own realization of the good because their inability to figure it out this instant is putting others in harms way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usegOdGMc...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1jzs6dk4...
you have to watch it to the end. this is the first time I thought about drafting which is also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs0ZFN5ns...
for OA and for you, Lionel