The Nature of Force: (a dare to the trolls.)

Posted by overmanwarrior 12 years ago to Philosophy
45 comments | Share | Best of... | Flag

As one of the books I picked up the other day I bought Ayn Rand's Capitalism: The Unknown Idea. I had not read this book before. In fact, I haven't read any of her nonfiction books. I put many other books in front of them. But, upon reading, I came across this quote:

"If one knows that the good is objective--i.e., determined by the nature of reality, but to be discovered by man's mind--one knows that an attempt to achieve the good by physical force is a monstrous contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying man's capacity to recognize the good, i.e., his capacity to value."

Now, that written in 1965. Who in their right mind can say that what she has said is not true. I'm specifically addressing the looters who troll this site looking for ways to discredit Ayn Rand. Point out the false premise in her statement if you can.

Give it your best shot. Make a valid argument. I find that statement 100% true in every way.


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by LionelHutz 12 years ago
    I've been throwing a lot into this thread and the opportunity to think on it has lead me to conclude there is a MAJOR problem with this reasoning. Here I must excuse myself for not knowing the context the statement was made in...for I could be going a direction that was unintended by the author. That being said...

    I think she is considering a world in which all human beings have the right to reason and discovery and we should not impose good on them when left to their own devices they will arrive at the same good we have...as good is objective (there is A truth and it is discoverable).

    The problem with this is we are living in a world of good and EVIL. There are many people who have absolutely no desire to be good. Given the freedom to seek and find what is good and right, they will instead use their freedom to murder, steal, lie, cheat, etc.

    i.e. They don't care about the quest for truth and good. Society necessarily must erect laws to stand in opposition to these people, hire judges to pronounce them guilty, build jails to house them, and hire executioners to kill them.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years ago
      All have the right to their existence and by extension property. Except those who would forcefully deny it of others. That is the purpose of government; to restrain the tyrants, to force restitution after the initial improper use of force.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by LionelHutz 12 years ago
        Yep. We are on the same page. But take your statements and re-read the original post. Do you feel like government's attempt to restrain evil with force is "a monstrous contradiction which negates morality at its root by destroying man's capacity to recognize the good" ?
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
          You are reading the second part of the statement without the first part's caveat. The state can only use force against those who initiate force.
          Evil is a self-limiting proposition.
          A non-free country against a free country will lose ultimately. If everyone becomes a thief or murderer you will run out of victims. same is true with consumerism. There must be producers
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by LionelHutz 12 years ago
            No - I read it all right. It's just that OAs caveat isn't in Ayn's statement, and that's what's under discussion.

            I'm not sure what you're getting at with "Evil is a self-limiting proposition." Are you suggesting that government ought not restrain it as it will die out on its own if left to run amok?
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
              point to move the discussion.
              "The basic political principle of the Objectivist ethics is: no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. No man—or group or society or government—has the right to assume the role of a criminal and initiate the use of physical compulsion against any man. Men have the right to use physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. The ethical principle involved is simple and clear-cut: it is the difference between murder and self-defense. A holdup man seeks to gain a value, wealth, by killing his victim; the victim does not grow richer by killing a holdup man. The principle is: no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force."
              (Virtue of Selfishness, Ayn Rand)
              give a girl a break Lionel! it's Friday night and happy hour
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years ago
          I believe it is our capacity to distinguish between good and evil/ victim and aggressor that justifies the reaction of force to counter initial force. I do not see how sanctioning government to be our hand in countering force is a contradiction. Their abuse of that power in our name is something else. The former moral, the latter immoral.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by LionelHutz 12 years ago
            It's a contradiction only when you take that one statement above and stick to it literally and absolutely. It argues there should be no force brought to bear against the evil aggressor because we should give him the freedom to discover the error of his ways on his own.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years ago
              You are right. As I read it, the statement standing alone, does not make it plain that it only relates to the initiator. The context must be considered. To read it otherwise would stand in stark contrast and contradiction to everything else she wrote. I am without my copy of C:TUI until Monday, but if overman can provide more context or the pg. numbers for me to look up on Monday, I have no doubt the contradiction will evaporate
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 12 years ago
    Great quote. Another book for my long reading list. I like your challenge. It will be interesting to see the attempts made to prove what's true to be untrue.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 12 years ago
      So far it's been crickets. I want to see some of the big mouthed anti-Rand people who scroll around this site argue that statement. Where are they? I know they are reading. Come on, lets have the debate.

      The book itself is great. I am shocked that I haven't ran across this stuff earlier, but I'm happy they are available now. When you get to a certain point in life, and you figure these things out through living life, you don't need a book to tell you anything. But its nice to read that somebody else came up with these ideas from a different time and place and knowing that in hindsight she was right about everything. For me, it only validates the argument because when she first wrote these books the ideas were theory, and I can see why people would be skeptical. But now they are facts and we have measured results. They cannot be disputed. So I invite the trolls here to engage in conflict. Lets go. Throw out a refute on that statement based on collective mentality.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
        "right about everything" overman, did you really agree with everything before you read it? and/or surely you might have disagreed with some points in the book?
        when I first read it, I was still in college. and so somewhat unshaped by all the ideas in the book. for example, I worked, but not for myself. I do not believe I totally formed ah-ha s about so many of the concepts in this little book, until I did work for myself.
        In Atlas Shrugged, for many years after reading it several times, I could not agree with Rand on funding science. a cornerstone of my young life was seeing men on the moon. I just would not agree with her that NASA should not have existed as a part of the govt. I finally came to agree on this point when my children were going through school. for me, anyway, life experiences changed me but I had the influence of her books most of my adult life.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by 12 years ago
          I LOVE Nasa, and they have done some great work. BUT, because they are government, when a radical group like Obama and his gang of thugs are in office, they can turn off that science to fullfil their crazy agenda of global equality. Government should be out of science because of it. Let the free market do all the work. Government allowed Nasa to grow when we were competing with the USSR, but stopped making those types of investments the minute the Berlin Wall came down.

          I'm still reading Capitalism, but so far I agree with everything except how blunt she is at times. But the content is very good. I can't blame her for her presentation. It just made her an easy target for people who don't have the courage to deal with the truth.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years ago
    Hello overmanwarrior,
    I have read most of Rand's books. I have yet to read the "Romantic Manifesto" and "We the living.” I have, however, watched "We the Living" the movie many times. I think you will find her non-fiction works quite interesting.
    Good luck hunting trolls.
    Regards,
    O.A.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by LionelHutz 12 years ago
    In an nutshell, I think she is saying "It is wrong to force people to be good".
    If you see a guy doing 100MPH down the highway, do you want the police to pull the guy over and give him a ticket?
    Or should we just let him keep doing 100MPH until he figures out that speeding is bad on his own?
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by 12 years ago
      I drive 100 MPH down the road a lot. So my vote should be obvious. And I've never hit anybody. In that regard, I should not be limited to the mental and physical restrictions of those who desire to drive slower. I drive careful or reckless based on the value I have for my vehicle, and my needs at the time. Maybe I have a meeting in Cincinnati at noon then in Columbus at 2 PM, and I promised my wife I'd be home at 5 PM. I will apply the need for speed to execute those obligations according to my skill to achieve all those acts. Because I trust my ability to do all those things I say yes to each engagment. I also say yes knowing I can do the driving, since I wish to avoid catching a plane because of the aggressive TSA restrictions. My limit to these successful fulfillments should not be some pin head who wants to drive 55 MPH in the fast lane thinking they are doing society a favor by keeping traffic backed up on the highway. The poor soul may need pop bottle glasses to drive, and has gout in their knuckles, so they are limited in their physcial ability. They belong in the slow lane with both hands on the wheel. They should not be in my way. There is room for both of us on the highway and I will gladly pass them up at twice their speed, but they don't have a right to keep me from hitting my 2 PM meeting. And they don't have a right to make me late for dinner either back at my home. They don't have a right to force me to get a hotel overnight because my meeting ran late, or because there are too many rules keeping me from getting home in time for bed. So "yes" it is wrong to force people to do good. People should want to do good on their own because they have value for life, their property, and their relationships with others.

      If I wreck into someone else at 100 MPH that would cause some serious property damage, so I would only do so if the profit outweighed the risk. If I bring harm to someone else with my action by infringing on the rights of someone else, then I've lost my ability to defend my property by infrining on someone else. But its not for some white knuckled wimp to decide that my speed is too great because it exceeds their limitations.

      Now, that should get some discussion going. : ) Come on, where are the liberal nut jobs today? I want to hear more about how great movies like 2001 Space Odyssy is compared to Atlas and what John Galt would or would not have done if locked outside a space ship (its and inside story). Where are the bold proclimations?
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by khalling 12 years ago
      I've always found posted speed limits absurd. Sometimes drivers driving too slow are just as much a reckless hazard as a driver speeding in great excess compared to the cars around them. I have always been a firm believer in staying with the flow of traffic. I think those pushing for rules have to have the burden of proof-significant burden of proof- that the rule in actuality makes one safer. I think very few of our laws would survive scrutiny, including speed limit laws.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo