Flags and the Thought Police
Posted by robgambrill 9 years, 5 months ago to Culture
I never really cared for the confederate flag, but I heard today that E-bay had banned their sale.
Just to see what would happen, I decided to try and order one off of Amazon, just as they decided not to allow the sale of rebel flags as well.
As they were taking down the offerings, I noticed that other historical flags were being pulled as well. The picture is from my "Wish List". Not sure the web masters knew which flags to pull off the site.
I eventually managed to order both a "Don't Tread on Me" flag and a small rebel flag as a souvenir of the day the thought police decided I shouldn't be able to buy a flag because of somebodies idea of what it stands for.
I could be mistaken, but I think for a lot of people, the confederate flag has to more to do with a wish to be free of the federal government than history or race issues.
The seller shipped the rebel flag right away, guess he didn't want to get stuck with the inventory.
. I guess I am not comfortable with banning the sale of flags, even unpopular ones.
Just to see what would happen, I decided to try and order one off of Amazon, just as they decided not to allow the sale of rebel flags as well.
As they were taking down the offerings, I noticed that other historical flags were being pulled as well. The picture is from my "Wish List". Not sure the web masters knew which flags to pull off the site.
I eventually managed to order both a "Don't Tread on Me" flag and a small rebel flag as a souvenir of the day the thought police decided I shouldn't be able to buy a flag because of somebodies idea of what it stands for.
I could be mistaken, but I think for a lot of people, the confederate flag has to more to do with a wish to be free of the federal government than history or race issues.
The seller shipped the rebel flag right away, guess he didn't want to get stuck with the inventory.
. I guess I am not comfortable with banning the sale of flags, even unpopular ones.
.
construction, as does zoning . . . and my desire to
build a one-wheeled motorcycle for interstate travel
is censored by the State and the feds. . it's the
damned box which we're in, courtesy of society. -- j
.
it's not usually because of innovation, but instead
because of graft and power-seeking. . like Solyndra
and getting rid of the A10 . . . just for votes, dollars
in their pockets, and power. . makes me sick. -- j
.
The Flag, Gay Marriage, Pot are all distractions and aren't real issues.
I miss seeing "Dixie" everywhere in the south, things change. That flag means different things to different people.
If you're looking for a symbol, there are plenty other to choose from.
Find one that makes the statement and promote it, then no one can confuse it with racism or hate. And you might get more people to rally around it.
The Confederate flag is nothing. Lets not lose the war to win a battle.
A rationale argument can't be made to someone with the fingers in there ears. No one wants to hear an hour explanation on how the civil war was not solely about slavery.
Let's not give Hillary something to distract the low info voters with to avoid talking about her accomplishments.
What does the Confederate flag represent? To me that gets at the heart of the whole debate. To some, it is a symbol of rebellion against a strong central government. To others it is a symbol of slavery, the violation of basic human rights, or death of American citizens (civilian and military) the likes of which American has never seen in either total or percentage since. To me, the latter outweighs the former - especially when the Gadsden flag is available.
As to the banning of sales of flags, do we not argue that each business has the right to determine how it best is going to service its customers and that the market should determine the outcome? Why is this any different? Let those who wish to continue to sell the flags do so and those who do not wish to sell them cease.
(Sorry...just being the Devil's Advocate)
However Ebay and Amazon serve as a marketplace for a lot of small businesses. They pretty much said we are not going to sell this stuff and you can't either. What is the small business guys alternative market place? What if the search engines said they would not link to merchandise bearing the confederate flag?
Starts to sound more like censorship than a business preference .
(Apologies --That's just me playing Devil's advocate to your devils advocate).
After all, pirates are among the worst looters to come down the pike--the Spanish Main, I mean.
http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehom...
The pirates arrive in Tampa Bay in a faux galleon around noon. They threaten the mayor with dire consequences if he doesn't capitulate, which he gladly does, giving the Top Pirate the key to the city. It is a good deal of fun nonsense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cKCkbWD...
After all If you read the mantra of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you'll see clearly that pirates inhibit global warming!
It makes me think of the beginning of the slavery of mankind, not the emergence of freedom for the blacks.
Guess I am just a glass half empty kind of guy. :)
The war was primarily about taxing one group (Southern Agriculture) in order to give the money to another group (Northern Manufacturing who monetarily supported/elected the GOP/Lincoln which was created from the failed Whig Party.) Slavery was not a reason for the war, just a way for Lincoln, the consumate lying politician, and for the historians (who sought to deify Lincon) , to excuse his war crimes and unconstitutional acts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_...
It contends that the move to secede had been on the table for at least 30 years prior to the South's actual secession. Lincoln's election was more coincidental than causal, as the secession was over and decided within three months - hardly a time period long enough for an entire swath of the Nation to take such a radical stance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_...
From everything I can read, there is no question that the Southern States certainly were disproportionately impacted by tariffs and duties that started just after the War of 1812 and which were perpetuated until the Civil War. But you are trying to make the argument that the secession was Lincoln's doing, and I can find no support for that argument. His election may have been the straw which broke the camel's back, but before he had actually even done anything, the South had seceded - some even prior to Lincoln's election!
If you want to blame a President, I'd start with John Quincy Adams and Buchanan.
I was much simpler than that, simply that we traded one form of slavery (black slaves) for another form (slavery by state) as a result of the civil war. Which GOP enslaving southern farmers would definitely fall into the new form of slavery I was referring too. Its a form of government imposed slavery rather than individual imposed slavery.
"(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed. " - confederate constitution.
Note nothing prevents a law that stops the right of property for a white slave only a negro slave. It is very clear that the south wanted the right to own a negro slave protected very specifically.
"(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States. " - Confederate Constitution
Again, only the expansion of Negro slavery was protected. No white slavery protection.
You will note that this was written in April of 1861 a month before the US civil war started. The context in which I brought it up was that it shows without much wiggle room that the south was very concerned with slavery and the attack on it from the north. So much so that they protected Black Slavery constitutionally when they wrote their constitution.
Facts are all that matters, and the context of those facts matter just as much.
Except for the slavery issue portions it looked like a much improved USA Constitution but then so did the cleaned up version Panama adopted. As our instructor said they are only as good as the people who interpret and operate from them.
That led me back to some research in linked area (not linked on the net but within the boundaries of the issue at hand). Katy bar the door! What did I find? The answer to one of tow troubling questions. Namely why African Americans would support Democrats which is still the pro-slavery party and has been all along? Not that the Republicans are pure as driven snow especially now they are in bed with Demos but in comparison?
So a bit of historical fact checking and I came up with reasons why the Blue Dog Democrats and the RINO - less Republicans especially those currently in Congress should bolt the Government Party scarf up the bulk of the independents and splinter party and offer a meaningful platform ....they won't but it's a dream
So....New Post under History seems like a good choice since failure to learn and understand same is the sure route to a lemming finish.
Watch for it?
PS I didn't change the Constitution that was another project in school. Rewrite it and defend your position.Big time extra credit.
Those that trade liberty for safety lose both. But now it's been three four year elections and the ones in between. The voting public has chosen to ignore the Constitution to the point the politicians openly scorn that document and still get elected.
You get what you ask for.
How about a person born into a socialist system that requires him to slave for society - would he not be initiating force to break free?
Sure, you can try to make an argument that he is responding to being forced, but the fact of the matter is that it would be the slave who first picks up arms.
When I tell my son not to initiate force in school, but only to defend himself if attacked, those are definitive, black/white concepts for a 15-yr old. But life is more complicated. What happens when someone places a swastika in my face? Does that justify (not legally, I understand, but morally) physical force?
We don't get a choice. That's your job. So far I can't say much for the work ethic nor the quality.
Elder and Paul put it this way:
The Problem: Everyone thinks; it is our nature to do so. But much of our thinking, left to itself, is biased, distorted, partial, uninformed or down-right prejudiced. Yet the quality of our life and that of what we produce, make, or build depends precisely on the quality of our thought. Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life. Excellence in thought, however, must be systematically cultivated.
A Definition: Critical thinking is the art of analyzing and evaluating thinking with a view to improving it.
The Result: A well cultivated critical thinker: raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely; gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret it effectively; comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards; thinks open mindedly within alternative systems of thought, recognizing and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.
Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking. It requires rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem solving abilities and a commitment to overcoming our native egocentrism and sociocentrism.
Paul, Richard; Elder, Linda (2014-10-20). Miniature Guide to Critical Thinking Concepts & Tools (Thinker's Guide Library) (Kindle Locations 29-41). Foundation for Critical Thinking. Kindle Edition.
Responsibilities then Rights So....let's once again ask the fatal question? The diversion didn't work.
Who? Who do you suggest besides a bunch of book burners and historical revisionists (that's the answer to your flag problem) Who?
and what does how does one justify the intiation of the use of force and destruction of others property qualify.
Well let's see.
We don't get a choice. When we volunteer or are ha ha drafted and speaking of which why did the movement to get rid of the draft quit? When we volunteer we no longer enjoy the privileges of the civilian citizen. We get the uneviable task of doing what we are told to do by the the civilian citizens. Constitution is replaced by UCMJ which the civilian community gave us. We don't get to have a union and vote on it. That is your job. We NEVER initiate the use of force. That's done by an opponent of the country at the direction of the country. Of course lately there has been no need to initiate anything. You did it for us. We up hold our oath of office. You have none. You are all about rights and no responsibilities and not worth the effort. Even the excuses are feeble.
Next time....do it yourself (inclusively)
One of lifes's truisms treat your military despicably they learn to despise you in return. Personally I don't believe anyone should have the franchise that hasn't earned it. Accidents of birth have failed as a standard.
No one understands the nature and horrors of war better than a soldier who is sent - for nothing. Inclusively - when we were told it was for something. You must have meant the paycheck.
Come to think of it you inclusives are behind on that as well.
I might settle for removing the U.S. flag - and, by implication, our support. No, I want it to be stronger than that. Shut it down [yeah, I know - fat chance!] and return the flags of the various countries, which are their property, to them. In what form they would be returned.....I leave to your more than fertile imaginations - but I'll lend you my scissors, at least.
The Confederacy seceded from the United States of America and initiated war when they fired on Fort Sumpter. The flag of the Confederacy was the flag of an enemy army and wherever it was raised it proclaimed the allegiance of that area to the Confederacy and its ideals - just like raising the Stars and Stripes proclaims allegiance to the United States and its ideals. There were two sides in that war - the bloodiest war in US history both in terms of total casualties as well as percentage of population affected - and those who lived at that time were either on one side or the other. There were no fence-sitters.
The post above states that, and I will intentionally use different wording that captures the same principle, nut likely not the intent of the original poster. Also removed all military specific references, and I do not agree with the next paragraph.
I would feel obligated to go and cut down someones personal property because I do not agree with what it represents.
The basic principle boiled down like this is what I walk away from the statement with. The principle is wrong as it initiates force against another.
I do respect the military as without it we would have even less freedom than we have today. I do not respect and ideal that at its heart is what this comment appears to be at first glance.
Are they not first declaring their intent to wage a war of ideals and so does the reaction really qualify as an initiation of force? If someone hung an ISIS flag (it actually happened) in front of their home, would your first reaction be anything other than to identify that household as an overt and proclaimed threat to liberty?
Free speech is not an unlimited right. A nation's self-preservation at some point must come into play in this discussion.
At the same time I would be thankful I live in a place where they can hang their Isis flag. That in and of itself does me no harm.
When they want to force me to hang an Isis flag, that's what the freshly cleaned and oiled guns are for.
"When the government violates the people's rights, insurrection is, for the people and for each portion of the people, the most sacred of the rights and the most indispensible of duties."
-Marquis De Lafayette
This was what the south was doing in the civil war. They were responding to a force that was being initiated on them and the way of life they had. They were also rebelling against a ever growing federal government that put them down in order to maintain power. In my opinion the US that had free commerce, individual as the supreme entity in the land... ended with the start of the civil war because the side that won was fighting for the right of the federal government to use force, not of military but of politics to force a behavior out of some of its citizens.
The Civil war was the fundamental shift in thinking that would result in Sherman's Law in 1890 which was the beginning of the end of the free market.
If they were supporting a society that promoted the freedom of all men - not just those of one color - I could accept that argument and say their cause was just. That simply was not the case. It is contradictory to state that one acts to preserve rights when the intent is to deprive or continue to deprive certain others of rights. I understand the argument and the consequences for economics may be what they say, but I can not agree that the cause was just nor justifiable.
The other major piece was the right of states and by extension the rights of individuals to live for themselves and not for the federal government.
The two were in contradiction in the south. That does not make the first any less wrong and the second any less right. Since they were connected the victory of the north condemned them both to no longer exist
Were I too be completely forth right I have only two flags that I would fly at my home. One is my family coat of arms and the other is the 13 stars and 13 strips of the revolutionary war. Both represent something I can fully support; no other flag I know of shares that same full level of support.
If they rebelled against society in general, they would not have created the confederate constitution to guarantee rights to their citizens.
It is one thing to say that the Confederates were advocates of States' rights (which may very well be the case) but quite another to claim that their motivations were to the intent of promoting the liberty of all men. The Confederacy rebelled so that they could protect the institution of slavery as it promoted their economy and their ideals.
I'm from the west. My ancestors have been in the west since before the Civil War, so I've got no family history from either side to bias my feelings on the matter. I just look at it from a symbology standpoint. What I can't understand is why 150 years later anyone would still fly that flag. That's like the Macedonians trying to resurrect and fly their flag in the faces of the rest of Greece.
The "Stars and Bars" flag, currently the subject of controversy, was actually the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.
After the war ended, the symbol became a source of Southern pride and heritage, as well as a remembrance of Confederate soldiers who died in battle.
I don't know why they want to fly it, not my issue on here.
My disagreement is over slavery as the primary driver for the Civil War.
Do I think that Robert E Lee fought to protect slavery? No. His own comments on the matter when he was approached by Abraham Lincoln told the story: that he was a Virginian first and an American second - a predominant feeling of that era that was demonstrated by the various state militias that were mustered to fight. "Stonewall" Jackson felt the same, declining to fight for the Union even though he was the preeminent authority on artillery bombardment in the States at the time as an instructor at West Point.
It takes two to tango. It takes two to war. All I can do is look at the causes for which each side is/was fighting. With many it is clear cut - WW II is a great example. With the Civil War, there is right and wrong on both sides. Regardless of that, however, the fact remains that history will always tie the Confederacy to slavery and the "stars and bars" is a symbol of that - just as history will always tie the red and black swastika to the Germans and the Holocaust. You can defend it if you wish, but don't expect much support.
My issue is the assertion by others on here that slavery was the primary cause of the civil war.
Stay tuned.
I find it interesting that there is so much vitriol against Lincoln, however - a man who failed in every election until that of President. This wasn't a man of vast political power. And if one reads the texts of the Lincoln-Douglas debates, it becomes pretty difficult to reconcile the Lincoln you seem to want to portray with the one in those debates. Reading Lincoln's other writings, too, such as the Gettysburg Address (which was never written as a monumental speech) tells me much more about the man than a historian from 150 years after the fact. I'll take your comments with a very large grain of salt.
And you are a fool.
You really should stick with facts rather than your opinion of what you feel might be some sort of military mindset. Especially when it's irrelevant to the item in question.
Next time go do the job yourself. Whatever it is. I'm not interested anymore.
Nine vertical red and white stripes - the original flag of the Sons of Liberty. With the following superimposed in blue:
I swear by my life and my love of it.
I created tshirts and such at cafe press (www.cafepress.com/iswearbymylife). But when I looked into actual flags it was going to be over $200 for a songle flag. I still might do it. Just not now.
At Porcfest this week I'm flying a Brandywine battle flag. It was flown by a PA regiment at the battle of brandywine in the Revolution about 15 miles from where I live.
list it under "false flag" and see if the Battle Flag of
the Army of Northern Virginia might survive there??? -- j
p.s. this flag inquisition smells like "hate crime" logic --
you're damned for both the crime and the thought. . to me,
it's double jeopardy.
.
Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia in a
curio fashion!!! -- j
p.s. the mascot at my high school is the rebel.
no flag, but the guy looks a lot like a red-jacketed
colonel Sanders.
.
That's right stick your head in the sand and pretend that this battle flag won't becoming out anytime soon. When the 2nd Civil War erupts/Secession that flag will probably carried by every militia of those states.
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