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Uber's Code of Death

Posted by nsnelson 9 years, 5 months ago to News
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Uber now has a new clear no weapons policy (https://www.uber.com/legal/firearms-prohibition-policy), which applies to drivers and passengers, regardless of what local laws otherwise allow. Uber's policy recently changed. Why did it change? It changed because in April an Uber driver in was legally armed (in Chicago!), and shot a young man who was wrongfully shooting at several people. The driver probably saved several lives, maybe even his own. He will not be charged, since he was acting in defense of life, his own and others.

Defense of life? That is something Uber cannot stand. They want to feel safe and comfortable. I'm sure those poor people in Chicago would have been much more comfortable getting shot while they wait for law enforcement to arrive and protect them. Good luck, Uber drivers and riders, feeling safe in your portable "gun-free zones" ....until someone intent on doing violence to your life and liberty comes along. Just another sign of the inverted mentality we call the Code of Death.

Lyft and Sidecar have similar policies:

https://www.lyft.com/drive/help/article/1229185

https://www.side.cr/policies/rules-of-the-road/
SOURCE URL: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/20/uber-banning-riders-drivers-from-carrying-guns/


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  • Posted by RonJohnson 9 years, 5 months ago
    It seems to me this is a tricky position for them to take. By disarming their passengers, regardless of the law, they are taking the legal responsibility for the safety of the passengers.

    I work for a store that has a sign at the front of the store "Concealed Carry Welcome" because the liability falls on the store if the customers are disarmed due to a policy of the store.
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    • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 5 months ago
      Not true. They will disclaim liability and it will be enforceable so they are at no risk. Their real risk is in losing customers, like me, who will refuse to ride in a vehicle now made a target for anyone who wishes to rob it or its customers at gunpoint without fear of armed resistance. I'll take a cab please.
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      • Posted by RonJohnson 9 years, 5 months ago
        You may be right....I'm not aware of any ability to disarm customers yet claim no liability for their safety. I know that Wisconsin law says if a business forbids concealed weapons in their establishment, they are liable for the violent actions of anyone who DOES enter with a concealed weapon. In other words, the onus in on the gun-free establishment to ensure there are no guns if they declare there are no guns. Not exactly the same as the Uber situation.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          Interesting. I did not know this about Wisconsin. I wonder how many other states take this stance. I'm not aware of Texas being this way. It only makes sense. If your policy removes people's ability for self-defense, you should be responsible to defend them, and liable for the consequences of their inability to defend themselves.

          I think private individuals should be legally allowed to make that kind of rule (i.e., no guns), at least applying to their own property (including their business). But perhaps this should be a legally enforceable remedy. Citizens are allowed by law to defend themselves; anyone who removes that right is legally obligated to take on the responsibility for that task themselves.

          This also raises the question in my mind: Does Uber have that kind of authority and control over their passengers, their drivers, and their drivers' cars? Is the car Uber's property, such that it has the authority to make this kind of rule (and take on any liability)?
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        • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 5 months ago
          Correct. And I'm betting the Wisconsin law is a statute, not by common law. In the Uber situation there would have to be a state statute affixing liability on Uber where violence causes damages because of its no guns policy. Good luck getting a state legislature to pass that one.
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 5 months ago
    As mentioned on another thread, it continually astounds me how violent the USA is compared to other developed nations, and how guns are constantly advocated as the remedy, not recognised as a major cause.

    There are numerous other developed countries where private gun ownership is all but banned, but where murder rates are negligible compared to the US.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      I'm curious to know where we disagree. Do we agree that we have a right to life?

      That this implies the right to defend that life?

      That this implies the right to equip ourselves with efficient tools to defend that life?

      That guns are one of the most efficient tools of lethal force?
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    • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 5 months ago
      This study is interesting: http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DEC/R...

      The suggestion is that we may have to accept high levels of violent crime as an effect of individualist economics and a society which refrains from any sense of collectivist obligation.
      When Atlas shrugs, the world will always fall and crush a lot of unproductive people, and many of these will try to fight their way back to the teat of State through violence.

      Interestingly, the original motivation of the UK's welfare state was largely based on the principle that paying off the bottom-feeders ended up cheaper than coping with the costs of their crime if they weren't getting welfare. In that sense, welfare kinda made economic sense as an insurance policy for the productive sector.

      But, crime-fighting technology becomes ever more sophisticated. Bank robberies in the last 5 years have crashed to a fraction of what they used to be, for one. As such welfare will become increasingly obsolete.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 5 months ago
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      • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 5 months ago
        In a way, that study supports my argument. The USA is one of the most violent of all developed nations, DESPITE having such high levels of gun ownership.
        However, in response to the recent church massacre, there are those who advocate for EVEN MORE guns.
        Apart from Brazil, Mexico and Russia, USA is a part of the developed world where you're most likely to cop a cap in your ass!
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 5 months ago
          owning guns does not mean you are allowed to take them where you may need them.
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          • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 5 months ago
            Which tilts the playing field towards crims. Righteous people usually confine their actions to what's legally permitted. Crims defy that and do what they feel they can get away with. Result? More places where crims are carrying and law-abiding citizens aren't.
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            • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
              And isn't that the problem? "Gun-free zones" don't work against criminals. And making guns harder for law-abiding citizens to obtain will only tilt the playing field even more in the criminals' favor.
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              • Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 5 months ago
                The main problem here being that America has had these little prosthetic penises for so long that they've rooted deeply into the culture, like oxalis weed - impossible to eradicate without major upheaval.

                Person in Europe: "Time to go to work I guess."
                Partner: "Ok honey, have a good day!"

                Person in USA: "Time to go to work I guess."
                Partner: "OMG you're only taking a Glock? A bit light, don't you think? Oh that's right, your Uzi is in for repairs. Take my Kalashnikov, I've got a spare. Have a lovely day!"
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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          Of course we advocate EVEN MORE guns, or rather, most places where we can carry those guns. The problem was not the lack of "gun-free zones." The "recent church massacre" was a "gun-free zone" until the murderer brought in his gun. Gun-control laws are not a solution, they are the problem. If the church members were armed, they might have had a chance to save at least some lives.
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  • Posted by gerstj 9 years, 5 months ago
    Uber needs signs on the side of its cars: Gun Free Victim Zones. They also need to suffer the market penalty of lower ridership.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      If they want to enforce their policy, they can just cancel the Uber accounts of those who violate it. If they want the Government to enforce it, then I agree that they should have to post legal No Gun signs on their cars.

      Regarding the free market, I hope this happens. I doubt there are enough gun owners to make it happen. I doubt enough people are convicted of the prudence of being prepared for self-defense. Most people are sheep, and trust that life is rainbows and safe, that something that requires them to utilize self-defense will "never happen to them." Perhaps a voluntary boycott will work; I'd love to be wrong about that.

      I think an alternative would be to force them to boycott a willing paying customer like me. I might still use Uber, and carry concealed like I always do. Odds are they won't notice and there will be no incident. If I'm caught, they'll cancel my account and get no more money from me. They will force me to boycott them.

      Or do you think, since I know their policy, that this would be a lack of integrity? Or, since their policy is essentially violating my natural right to life, is this "lack of integrity" justified? What do you think?
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      • Posted by gerstj 9 years, 5 months ago
        Personal choice. The more overt action is to declare that you are carrying and force them to deny you service, but the essence of concealed carry is just that and, most times, no one is the wiser. I don't think the decision to concealed carry in the face of Uber policy is a lack of integrity. Rather, it is a refusal to accept their abridgment of your natural right of self defense.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 5 months ago
    One good thing about concealed carry, no one sees the gun until a bad situation forces you to pull it.
    Odds are you could ride Uber armed your entire life with no one the wiser.
    I would not recommend riding with Uber unarmed, though. Should something bad happen, odds now also are no one will be with you to pull the gun that saves your life.
    Of course, all you Uber sheeple can draw cell phones, dial 911 and bleat your bye-bye baas while being shot.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago
    Remind me to strike chicago off my list of places to visit. Do they issue time out cards?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      I don't think the problem is Chicago. Chicago recently allowed licensed (sadly) conceal carry. That is why the driver was able to be prepared when he needed to be. The driver was good, Chicago is okay. It is Uber that is the problem.
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  • Posted by SaltyDog 9 years, 5 months ago
    It's insane!

    Oh, wait...a San Francisco based company; that explains everything.

    Never mind.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago
      Actually, there is another explanation. Many urban cities are attempting to crack down on Uber by effectively banning them through city ordinances, etc., because they threaten city revenue through taxi licensing. Uber may just be trying to not acquire a second strike.

      I'm not defending their policy ( I think they've got it backwards), I just present an alternative theory as to why they felt such a policy decision necessary.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
        I think you are talking about their precise motives for making the decision. I took SaltyDog to be joking about the fact that we should not be surprised because this is a well-known liberal (read: altruist-collectivist) area.

        As far as precise motives go, you may be correct. They didn't just wake up and think, "Hey, we are liberals, and liberals should opposed guns." No, they may have thought, "Hey, guns kill people (like our driver in Chicago did), so we should protect people from people with guns by not having guns." This is wrongheaded; if they were really concerned for our safety, they would not take away our ability for self-defense. They have made Uber more dangerous. But in their own minds, they may be genuinely concerned for our safety. More likely, I think, this was merely a PR move. They were probably pressured by liberal activists, and caved to their demands to have global "gun-free zones" in these cars.

        I believe Uber (et al) should be allowed to make this policy. I think it is wrong, and will be difficult to enforce, but private businesses should be allowed to make their own rules in this way. If we want reform, we ought to appeal not to the Government, but the free market.

        But regardless of their precise motives, the fact is that they, as a business, are infringing on our ability to self-defense. They made this rule because one of their drivers defended the lives of others. They are opposing life. This is the Code of Death.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago
          Oh, I agree with you. The question you pose is appropriate and thought-provoking: can a business pursuing its own interests within its terms of service dictate limitations on certain aspects of freedom, etc.? It's a very good question.

          I would pose that in such a contractual relationship, the business may request to take responsibility for protection of certain basic rights such as safety while within the service of the business, but can not simply deny those rights. Thus if Uber chooses to ban self-defense, it then takes on the liability of providing for the defense of its customers. What say you?
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          • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
            Agreed. If they remove our ability for self-defense, they should take on that responsibility and liability. I think that is good, and perhaps should be required by law. Is that going too far, to make that enforceable by the Government? It is the job of the Government to protect our rights against those who would take them away, right?
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            • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago
              I would agree that government's first and foremost responsibility is to protect rights and I would suggest that the Founding Fathers felt the same as evidenced in the Bill of Rights. Ultimately, any alleged failure or disagreement would end up in the Court system, but I think what you are alluding to (and I agree) is that the question is whether or not it should be a _civil_ or a _criminal_ matter. Where it concerns basic rights, I would almost have to say it is a criminal matter.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years, 5 months ago
    chicago was off my list of places to go a long time ago. although it is a beautiful city, so is san francisco because of its really crazy socialist leanings and the overabundance of bums expecting me to support them.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 5 months ago
    Stupid policy, but unenforceable. I used Uber on my last trip. Worked great. Cheap, efficient, easy. Great Capitalist setup. Too bad for this silliness.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      Did you carry a firearm on your ride? Now that you know their policy, will you continue to use them? I'm wondering if that becomes an issue of integrity. Or does the fact that they are inhibiting our right to self-defense (and by implication our natural right to life) justify our disregarding their policy?
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 5 months ago
        Since I use them when I travel, and generally arrive on airplanes, and I do not check my luggage, I would not have a need to carry in an Uber vehicle.

        If I used them locally, and wanted to carry, I just would, and not say anything. In my mind it is none of their business.

        I think I like Uber, even with this rule, better than cab unions, and they are 1/2 the price. Therefore, I choose not to boycott Uber for this position.
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