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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 5 months ago
    I stood at ground zero of the Hiroshima Bomb some 23 years after it's detonation and it was amazing, after all the horrendous descriptions and scares I'd been raised with. That same day I had taken a gondola ride to a lookout over the bowl of the blast and while taking pictures, a group of 7/8yr old school children decided to all line up and pose for me in front of the view. During that same year I was part of a Special Weapons Crew that loaded a Nuke on an Aircraft kept in the hanger bay on standby, ready to be launched off the coast of N. Korea. Then I was again in Japan the day of the Moon Landing, the result of the arms race with USSR for rockets that could launch nukes world-wide and the control of space around the Earth.

    The juxtapositions were intense. It was much later that I saw the documentary on the Dresden fire bombing and was able to compare that to the nuclear strikes of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Except for the radiation after affects, they were eerily similar in destructive results, though the amount of planes and bombs required to ignite the fire storm at Dresden was immense. It was then I realized that the fate of those two cities in Japan and much of the rest of Japan was already written, with or without an A Bomb. At least, the Bombs saved the rest of Japan the same fate. The US fully intended to and would have utterly destroyed Japan.

    I often wonder the alternate universe if the US had been led by other than the egomaniacal FDR and had simply ended the war, then gone back home with it's Bomb and left Europe to solve it's own problems rather than making it very difficult for them to re-arm again and bring their conflagrations to the world again, and had left Japan conquered and faced with continued reparations for their part in the war--what would the world be today.

    I think Rand's perspective on the development, use, and meaning of the Bomb would have been wonderful to see and compare to at least my own thoughts on it.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      Michael Crichton was looking for a catastrophe for the basis of a story and he thought Chernobyl would be great, but then he started investigating and less than 300 people died, there were no horrible cancers, etc. In other words the scare stories in the news grossly overestimated the damage. So he decided that Chernobyl could hardly form the basis of story about a catastrophe. Instead he decided to write about the environmental movement - State of Fear.
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  • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 5 months ago
    A lot of things about the development of the atomic bomb and their use was never widely disseminated.

    I actually got a chance to meet General Tibbetts and talk to him for a couple of hours about the Hiroshima mission in the Enola Gay. He had written a book about it and was having a signing at a local air show. A very interesting encounter. I saw virtually none of the air show, the history from his perspective was far more compelling.

    The main thing to understand about that time, was that atomic weapons were a new and untried technology.

    When that mission was flown, they literally were not at all sure that they would reach Hiroshima carrying a bomb that large and heavy. They were not sure the weapons would work when they dropped them. They didn't know if they would survive the detonation either. But they persevered in spite of the unknowns. Then a different plane and crew did the same thing again at Nagasaki with yet another type of bomb using a different detonation process.

    My how things have changed. Do you think America could sustain that kind of massive effort for ANYTHING that we did in WW2?
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    • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 5 months ago
      one of the reasons I signed on at k25 and, later, y12
      was because of the unique history there. . they were
      built in 43, five years before I was born.
      "Dutch" Van Kirk, the Enola Gay navigator visited
      us at y12 in about 03 or 04, and I asked him about
      the supply line of atomic bombs behind the first two.
      from what I had read, there was a significant gap
      before more would be ready, and he confirmed
      that -- weeks. . Little Boy had used up so much
      235 that it would be awhile before that much would
      be ready again, and Fat Man was supplied with Pu
      from Hanford, Washington, where the reactors
      were working at maximum -- but could beat the
      production of 235 to the punch, if required. . it
      sounded like the strategic bet was that two would
      do the job. . it was fortunate that they did. -- j
      .
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      • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 5 months ago
        What did you post this with John? Every now and again your posts wind up formatted into half or less of the screen width. This one being and example.
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        • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 5 months ago
          I'm intentionally hitting "enter" when I get to the approx.
          width of a newspaper column, to make it easier on the
          eyes and so that you don't wag your head "no" when
          reading. . I'm using a homebrew pc with windows 7
          running (truth be told) firefox. -- j
          .
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          • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 5 months ago
            I find the practice intensely annoying, and a waste of space. Besides, it's unnecessary -- if you want to read a narrower column of text, just narrow your browser window.

            I wish the mods would change the posting software so it removes the line breaks.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      Do you think we will go back to the moon in our kids lifetime?
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      • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago
        Not so long as NASA's main goal is to study global warming and Islam. When a President tasks them with establishing a moon base, they'll get to work on it. Until then, the program is a massive waste of resources.
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        • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 9 years, 5 months ago
          I have an extremely difficult time envisioning islam in space or exploring another world/celestial body. In fact, I can only see islam in a desert setting or in a plume of fire surrounded by carnage. Yes, I know I'm intolerant.I have very little tolerance for barbarous beliefs and conduct in a George Jetson world..
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          • Posted by $ Terraformer_One 9 years, 5 months ago
            I mostly agree with a live and let live philosophy, a MAJOR EXCEPTION is when islumic clowns want to destroy my civilisation because a psychopathic pedophile, 1400 years ago, had a need for personality worship.

            I believe in killing in self-defense and as a LAST RESORT.

            When threatened by psychotic islumic clowns that START WITH KILLING others because they will not blindly follow a madman's delusions, I say "sew their miserable corpses into pigskin shrouds and drop them onto mecca during the hajj as a warning regarding their fate if they want to cause trouble."
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        • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
          Yes, a real space program (preferably private) would be denounced and no end of mythical environmental issues would be thrown at it today. The US no longer takes pride in any technological achievements
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          • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago
            As a whole, I agree. I still believe that there are an abundance of inventors and achievers remaining in the United States, but as a cheerleader and more importantly _leader_, the United States government has turned into a complacent and power-hungry bureaucracy not the least bit interested in real progress, invention, or human rights.
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      • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 5 months ago
        If commercial interests are allowed the latitude to do so, yes.

        The government does not have the will or ability to balance the budget. I can't see them doing a project that extends beyond their term of office without some serious pushing from the populace.

        The scene near the beginning of 2001: A space odyssey, illustrates it well for me.

        Dr Heywood Floyd is brought up to a space station over Earth in a Pan Am marked orbiter.
        Commercial service to space.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 5 months ago
        I think eventually, if we're going to get in space, we'll have to. If nothing else, for the research.
        I don't think it'll be government driven as much as commercial. Someone like Musk or Space X, may well drive it.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 5 months ago
        Depends whom you call "we". China has announced plans to put a colony there, and I think they will if nobody beats them to it.

        I would much rather see money-making activity in space, and except for solar power satellites that will probably need to involve travel to the outer solar system. Factories could be put in Earth orbit and probably will be, but once cheap transport is in place it will make more sense to get their raw materials from the asteroid belt than any large planet or moon surface (and the moon doesn't seem to have much except sand, anyway).
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 9 years, 5 months ago
    I do agree with Rands ultimate assessment. We should take the same view in regards with the development of the internet. Gore nor government had anything remotely to do with it. My best friend worked in the testing of the original computer to computer communications with the Army in 1973.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 5 months ago
    If you understand what Rand wrote and put it in the proper context you cannot say she was a bomb lover or hater. She was For winning the war at the least cost to us. I was only 11 but even then, I would have agreed with her.
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  • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 5 months ago
    My father, a PhD. electrical engineer, worked at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, conducting above ground A-bomb tests in the southern Nevada desert, then worked for the Los Alamos lab for over thirty years, eventually running its engineering division. I grew up in Los Alamos. My next book has an extensive section on the bomb. One conclusion I've reached: granting, for argument's sake, Rand's thesis that the bomb was a triumph of free enterprise, it was also a massive failure of statism in the US. Unfortunately, the latter undercuts the former.

    One of the mysteries surrounding the atomic bomb is why leading physicist Werner Heisenberg, of the Uncertainty Principle, did not emigrate to the US from Germany and join the effort. Thomas Powers proposed a novel, and I think well supported, hypothesis in his book, Heisenberg's War. He stayed in Germany, according to Powers, to spike the German bomb effort. One of the great "surprises" at the end of the war was the rudimentary nature of that effort; it was practically nonexistent. When the German bomb was first considered, Heisenberg told Speer and Hitler that it would be an enormous and costly undertaking on both the scientific and industrial fronts, would take years, and was probably doomed to failure. Hitler wasn't interested and the effort received little funding or support. Interestingly, the Los Alamos physicists vanished from the scientific journals around 1943, and Heisenberg and other German physicists strongly suspected they were involved with a US-British bomb development project.

    Both the US and British intelligence agencies were aware of the state of the German bomb program, although General Leslie Groves was not entirely convinced. This intelligence was undoubtedly kept from the Los Alamos scientists (with the possible exception of Oppenheimer). Many of them had strong moral qualms about the bomb, but were refugees from Germany and Eastern Europe and participated out of fear of a German bomb.

    By the time the US dropped the bombs, most of Japan was in ruins, its cities destroyed. It was difficult to find two suitable targets. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki devastation was not materially different from that experienced by several dozen Japanese cities from incendiary bombing. In fact, it may not have been the atomic bomb that prompted the Japanese surrender, but rather the prospect of a Soviet invasion (see Foreign Policy, "The Bomb Didn't Beat Japan...Stalin Did," 5/29/15).

    Roosevelt was an enthusiastic backer of the bomb. Given his personality, I would suggest the bomb was as much about making the US the dominant world power at the end of the war as it was to win that war. Truman's motivation was similar, and the bombs dropped on Japan were more about demonstrating that dominance--especially to Stalin--as they were about defeating Japan, whose leaders were already suing for peace.

    The dream for US dominance should have got its comeuppance when the Soviet Union detonated its first bomb in 1949. Not only did it have the bomb, but it had penetrated US security to obtain it. The next seven decades--Korea, Vietnam, the abandoment of the gold window in 1971, disastrous forays into the Middle East--should have obliterated the myth of the US government's omnipotence, but it is still tightly embraced by a substantial segment of the population. We may not be able to imagine the scale of the disaster necessary before it will be discarded. However, the myth's cause is well-served by the conventional narrative of the development of the atomic bomb, which Rand did nothing to challenge, and which is demonstrably at odds with the facts.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago
      Russia wasn't in the war with Japan until the very last days. They were too busy killing off their own people.
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      • Posted by straightlinelogic 9 years, 5 months ago
        That is correct, and according to the article cited, the Russian declaration of war and invasion of Manchuria and then Sahkalin island is what prompted the Japanese surrender, not the two atomic bombs.
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        • Posted by ewv 9 years, 5 months ago
          The Soviets declared war on Japan at the last minute to cash in on the spoils. The US had already destroyed the economy and war manufacturing on the Japanese main island through a combination of fire bombing and crucial mining and blockades that continued beyond the two nuclear bombs right up through the last week before the surrender.

          The conventional fire bombing, including Tokyo, did more damage continued right up to the end than even the two nuclear bombs, but at the expense of much greater American losses. Were it not for the bombing, especially the nuclear explosions at the end, that forced the surrender an enormous amphibious assault would have been required and was planned against the island, which would have entailed massive American losses. The Soviets did none of this.

          A good history of the air war against Japan is Kenneth Werrell's Blankets of Fire: U.S. Bombers over Japan during World War II.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago
          Given the overall status I would suggest a combination of the two. Wasn't any big secret they would be invaded from the Pacific and the demonstration of the two bombs must have had an effect. The Japanese had regularly kicked the Russians and the Chinese but without facing another large force. Russia invading China or even the Sakhalin Peninsula was however not the same as Russia invading the home islands. No proof they had the ability whereas the US had provided ample proof of ability and will.

          So at best it was facing up to reality which also included no natural resources and no war industry left along with the knowledge it only took one explosion to cancel out anything else.

          I doubt the word atomic entered into it until later. Horror maybe. the Russians would have spent some time consolidating their regained and newly gained land area along I'm sure with the usual purges.

          Then too they were at the end of a very long supply route a single railway line. thus no immediate threat to the Japanese Islands as compared to the look up in the sky threat of the US Forces. At best the Russian declaration was an extra dollop of frosting and perhaps a candle on a cake already baked, served and eaten.

          Given time. The water route from Sakhalin to south was feasible in the warmer months.

          The US was already in Japans southern most Island of Okinawa with a massive fleet of naval and air resources.

          And bombs big enough to wipe out whole cities.

          As in most things it's a combination of events and reality, Either way and without the knowledge of what this sort of weapon, even if it could be delivered, it kept a lot of American troops alive. From a soldiers point of view which is far different than 5,000 miles of distance and 70 years of hindsight later it was a good thing.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 5 months ago
      Ayn Rand did not write a "conventional myth" and was not "at odds with the facts". She took the threat of the atomic bomb very seriously, explained very carefully in a long letter to the producer her own views on how a movie on the subject must be approached, and was researching the facts of the history in interviews with those who produced the bomb until the project stopped when she was about a third of the way through the script.
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 5 months ago
      Heisenberg stayed in Germany because he was a German nationalist even though he didn't like Hitler. He didn't believe they could build a working bomb but wanted to develop it as far as possible for Germany's scientific prestige after the war and as a negotiating tool, thinking that it would not be far enough along to be useful to Hitler -- and knowing that he didn't dare not make some progress because Hitler wanted it even though he realized it would not be immediately available.

      Hitler aside, Heisenberg was desperately trying to get an in-place nuclear reaction going even as the Allies were swarming over the landscape towards him. At the last minute he abandoned the failed project and bicycled a large distance to his summer home where he waited on the front porch arrogantly expecting to be treated as a prestigious scientist aloof from German war when officers arrived.

      There are many books about Heisenberg's role, some trying to make a case for Heisenberg either sabotaging the bomb effort or the opposite of leading its development for the war, but a very good and straightforward personal and scientific biography is Cassidy's Uncertainty: The Life and Science of Werner Heisenberg.

      Cassidy covers Heisenberg's entire life and career, not just the atomic bomb controversy. One interesting parts describes how he bungled the original formulation of the uncertainty inequality while arguing from an optics "thought experiment" analogy with microscopes, which Bohr had to correct because of Heisenberg's inadequate background in basic physics -- especially the optics of the resolving power of microscopes despite his intelligence.

      And it describes how Heisenberg's tenacity successfully developed the matrix formulation of quantum mechanics, as a generalization of the discrete spectrum of the over-simplified "Bohr atom", with tedious algebraic calculations that Born and Jordan converted into the proper general matrix form -- Heisenberg hadn't known about matrix algebra either. It was later shown to be equivalent to Schodinger's continuum formulation.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 5 months ago
    I knew for some time Rand pattered Robert Stadler on J. Robert Oppenheimer.
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    • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago
      Really. I found that very interesting and appropriate
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      • Posted by Temlakos 9 years, 5 months ago
        It's appropriate for a figurehead cutting ribbons for cyclotrons and such. But does it completely explain all of Robert Stadler's actions and compromises?

        I suggest Robert Stadler really revealed where he stood when he poured out his real feelings for people to John Galt. "Filthy, grubbing pigs," he called them.

        Here's my sketch of Dr. Stadler:

        http://www.conservapedia.com/Robert_Stad...

        Remember what Hugh Akston said of him: "He never identified his proper homeland. He hated stupidity. It was the only emotion I had ever seen him display toward people—a bitting, bitter, weary hatred for any ineptitude that dared oppose him. He wanted his own way, he wanted to be left alone to pursue it, he wanted to brush people out of his path—and he never identified the means to it or the nature of his path or of his enemies."

        But I suggest he had an unfocused resentment against everyone around him. That's why he could say this with a straight face: "I am proud that my years of work in the service of science have brought me the honor of placing into the hands of our great leader, Mr. Thompson, a new instrument with an incalculable potential for a civilizing and liberating influence upon the mind of man." Dear Leader? Civilizing and liberating influence? He's talking about a weapon of mass destruction!

        I'll close with this excerpt from my Conservapedia entry:

        _________

        Perhaps the most important thing that motivates Robert Stadler is revenge. Rand does not lay out the social context of Stadler's early schooling. But clues to that context abound. He "ha[s] no talent or taste for dealing with people." As a corollary to this, he has no friends. He accepts accelerated schooling, and publishes his seminal work while very young. His great achievement is in a purely abstract area of science, for which most people see no practical application—though Floyd Ferris sees such an application, and develops it to its chilling fullest. Finally, the [State Science] Institute itself is not so much a laboratory as a temple—the Temple of Robert Stadler, though he takes pains to show off how modest his office is (nothing but a cheap desk, a filing cabinet, two chairs, and a chalkboard).

        This is the profile of the classic nerd. One might logically suppose that the "jocks" in his high school routinely crammed him into a locker in the dressing room of the school's gymnasium. From that experience, and from the failure of the school faculty and administration to intervene effectively, came a desire for two things:

        1. Isolation from the "great unwashed," the hoi polloi (Greek for "the many"), the blobs of humanity whose concerns never interested him in the slightest.

        2. Revenge against those who tormented him before he reached college.

        Stadler's incoherent babblings to John Galt in New York, before he dashes off to Dunkertown [Iowa] to take over Project X, reveal what he really thinks about people: "bloody, grubbing pigs!" He is ostensibly talking about Mr. Thompson and his cronies. He is actually talking about all people, in or out of government and politics. He makes no distinction, in short, between an Orren Boyle and a Hank Rearden. To Stadler, they're all alike. And that is why, when he realizes that he must flee, he decides to seize Project X and take the ultimate revenge.
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        • Posted by broskjold22 9 years, 5 months ago
          Excellent comment.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago
            Just as an aside I've seen hoi polloi also defined as politicians. Of course in Greece that is the whole nation. Jocks sometimes meet their fate. I recall one who showed up in my basic phase platoon. I do recall the inordinate amount of gigs and match burying details he caught. He passed the basic phase but didn't pass the program.
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  • Posted by broskjold22 9 years, 5 months ago
    The argument for the atomic bomb: to annihilate foreign aggressors. The argument against the atomic bomb: to be annihilated by foreign aggressors. Most would say the arms race continues to pervade global society. But politically, there is no such entity. There are states, or nations, each with a certain degree of development. Now, hierarchically, the individual is the only entity with rights. A nation has no right, only the express function to protect the lives, rights, and properties of the individuals composing it. Those states which use force in retaliation to the unpreventable initiation of force are justified in doing so. A caveat: If the US government knew about Pearl Harbor, it would implicate the decision makers who knew about that.
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  • Posted by $ Terraformer_One 9 years, 5 months ago
    John David Lewis' book,'Nothing Less Than Victory: Decisive Wars and the Lessons of History'

    has a chapter(seven - 'Gifts From Heaven': The American Victory over Japan, AD 1945 p.237) that changed my perspective on the propaganda that declared the use of the two nuclear bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki immoral,etc.

    The argument that those two bombs were supremely MORAL because they broke the will of the Japanese to continue supporting their leadership's war efforts, and in the process saved countless American and Japanese lives.
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  • Posted by illucio 9 years, 5 months ago
    I must agree with the term "the greatest moral crime" half way, since we all know that at the time a war was going on that fell out of proportions and, well, the result of this "bomb" was still quite unknown. Matter of fact, it was so secret that very few could actually estimate the damage it would cause; and I´m sure the administration at the time had no real clue for its outcome more than (it would save american lives). It did.

    What is inmoral, the other half; is the fact that it unleashed what I like to call WWIII, and what we know as the cold war. True, maybe no more cities were destroyed so radically with the innocent lives it takes; but the psychological effect on the world was that of constant uncertainty and "doomsday at hand" fear for decades and, if this goes on; probably centuries to come. Now that´s perverse, for this morbid reasoning keeps justifying the wrath of war, the construction of weapons of mass destruction and the architecture of agression. That´s inmoral, that´s what´s pure evil about this. The subtle drive to feed the war machine till kingdom come...
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 5 months ago
    The link isn't working for me. What DuckDuckGo returned is the same broken link. Did they retract the post?
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    • Posted by ewv 9 years, 5 months ago
      All searches for the article at The Nation website have the same 'page not found' error. I don't have a copy and haven't seen it either, but there is another snarling and distorting article from April in the same the far left, Marxist The Nation at http://www.thenation.com/blog/174057/when-harry-truman-censored-most-important-hollywood-epic-ever-made.

      Ayn Rand did not "glorify" the atomic bomb. She feared it as a threat to "wipe out mankind" in the hands of statists. She took it very seriously and explained at great length in a letter to the producer what she thought would be necessary in a film about the development and use of the first atomic bomb. You can read first hand her letter and notes on her script in David Harriman's Journals of Ayn Rand, Chapter 9 pp 311-344, which the currently active article in The Nation omitted.

      She wrote only about a third of the script for the movie, called Top Secret, before the project was sold to MGM, which had already been working on its own movie version. Ayn Rand's partial script is not in the book and I have never seen it. MGM apparently continued the project with its own competing script but the movie was never released.
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