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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
    Hello AmericanGreatness,

    They penalize you/fine you for renouncing your citizenship! They will extract their pound of flesh.
    The IRS has become a political arm of the administration... It is an Hydra already... many heads and arms. Always growing and when you cut off one appendage two more grow... How to escape? that is the question.

    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 8 months ago
    To answer your question directly, I am reminded of a quote from a well known motivational huckster. the Quote is profound and true.

    Question: At what point does Atlas Shrug??
    Answer:
    “...when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change.”

    ― Tony Robbins
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  • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 9 months ago
    Don't forget that the IRS also has to pay interest on any tax refund 'owed'. That could easily put the average refund over $40k... The EIC and child tax credit should have been abolished a long, long time ago. It's already riddled with fraud, and now this?
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 9 months ago
      The IRS pays nothing... WE PAY all of it. I've said this a hundred times but...when are real americans going to start marching in the streets? What the hell will it take?
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      • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 9 months ago
        LetsShrug, we DID march in the streets by the thousands, as the Tea Party, so they eviscerated the movement with the IRS
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 8 months ago
          I watched as the Republican wing of the Government Party used that movement to gain local and state offices. The answer is to turn your back on them entirely. they do have enough in that wing and perhaps the Blue Dogs to repudiate and form another party even while in office. But I would have to see something mighty convincing to believe it. Not the business as usual play pretend. But at the local level? Much easier. Can't punch them in the chops then snap at the ankles. Turn your backs on them and give them nothing... no support of any form...at any level.
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      • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 9 months ago
        Yes, I understand that. And that the pool of "We" is getting smaller and smaller. Some have brought up the idea of only allowing tax payers to vote... a good idea, but given today's political climate, it would never happen.
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        • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago
          We shouldn't have to be paying the vast majority of taxes. Let's tie voting to property owners.
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          • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 8 months ago
            Hmm, in that case, I would not be eligible. That would kind of make me sad, but it is how things were in the beginning.
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            • Posted by edweaver 9 years, 8 months ago
              But you might be a property owner if only property owners could vote. I also think we would have a much smaller government if this were the case and owning property would be more economically viable. Just a thought. :)
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              • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 8 months ago
                Yep...you sure wouldn't vote to take another's property...which is this countries biggest problem...one of them...it's what started the socialist snowball rolling.....which has grown and grown and will continue to until we're all crushed by it.
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                • -1
                  Posted by Danno 9 years, 8 months ago
                  One should only be able to vote if he paid taxes in the last three years. If there is a year no taxes paid, then lose vote for three years again. Or something like that.
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                  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 8 months ago
                    Banned from day one in the Constitution as it is a poll tax used to deny franchise based on personal wealth. Like any interpretations the three year rule would expand or contract to fit the political need.

                    One should not get a welfare check as a tax refund however or be called a home owner when they are a home buyer or be allowed to donate to a political campaign outside their geo-political area of interest nor donate time, materials nor money if they do not have the right to vote. The last of which would wipe out soft money contributions completely.
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                  • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 8 months ago
                    YOU can pay taxes if you want to - but please don't make that kind of suggestion for others. Or pretty soon you'll find yourself suggesting we go out and rob some people at gun point because the gov't needs some money for something.
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              • Posted by Snoogoo 9 years, 8 months ago
                The question is that our whole society and culture has changed so much since property ownership was a requirement. We no longer live in an agrarian society or economy. I think about people like my sister who served in the marines for 10 years and is getting her architecture degree. She has no idea where she is going to end up living so why would she buy property? It's not like she plans on becoming a farmer. But she is productive, pays taxes, and is incredibly intelligent. I'm simply pointing out that doing this would result in either a land grab or a lot of the producers who produce wealth not getting any say in what the government does. Our economy now is based on paper IOU's and nobody will pay me with land so we are all screwed. I guess I could buy some land, but then what is the value of that land based on? More paper IOU's? Somebody hit my reset button I'm stuck in a mental loop.
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        • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 9 years, 8 months ago
          I would not be eligible. I will not buy any property any longer. Why should I pretend I own something when in reality the state owns it? Don't think so? Don't pay your property taxes and find out just what you own.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
        Hello LS,
        I fear it will take another Boston Massacre... The ennui is palpable. Is it not?
        Regards,
        O.A.
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        • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 9 months ago
          OA, I don't think it's ennui; I think it's frustration. I want to fight, but I'd like to think I have more than a snowball's chance in hell of winning.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
            Hello Mamaemma,
            I am in your camp. I am just frustrated sometimes when I have recently run into too many know-nothings. You know the kind. They walk around like zombies unaware of what is happening in the world... They don't vote and of many that do it is a good thing, since they are ill-informed, or contaminated with statist ideology.
            We need to see many more young people with the spirit of 76 instilled instead of drilled out of them by today's so called "education system."

            I do what I can to edify the generations of youth in my family and to anyone else that will listen.
            I just hope our words are having an impact.
            Carpe diem,
            O.A.
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            • 11
              Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago
              Aaah, let's try Heinlein's quote:

              "Most people can’t think, most of the remainder won’t think, the small fraction who do think mostly can’t do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self -delusion— in the long run, these are the only people who count." —Robert A. Heinlein
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            • Posted by Mamaemma 9 years, 9 months ago
              Hi, OA. How about this for an example? A few months ago I was waiting at the gate to catch my plane, and I hear 2 women talking near me. One is wondering how people could feel worried about Obama? I turned around and basically said that tyrants are always very clear about their intentions if you just listen. She said, like who? I said that Hitler stated his intentions more than once. Her answer was that she had heard he was a nice guy.
              I told her there was no need for me to speak to her.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 8 months ago
            But think of the future when your kid asks what did you do in the counter-revolution Daddy or Mommy.
            Nor would you have to hide from a mirror in shame.

            Revolutionary War less than ten percent of the population of the 13 States actively supported that effort. You can do a lot and the first step is turning your back on the Government Party under either one of it's two other names.




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        • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 9 months ago
          Yes it is...but you have more faith than I. People of today are weak, unwilling to fight, they can't recognize evil and unless it's THEM being massacred they think there must be a reason for it. (I fear there are very few of us dealing with the real world.) :(
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 9 months ago
            LS,
            The path we are on leads to inevitable collapse either way. The question that remains is a matter of time frame. Will we live to rejoice in the day when a new beginning can become manifest? I have already lived significantly longer than my grandfathers... Faith... Rand would say "I do not have faith, I have convictions." I like that! Apologies if that sounded pedantic. It was not my intention... just a recollection that burst out.
            Best wishes,
            O.A.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 8 months ago
              Nothing wrong with pedantic - except where they end all sentences with a question mark. Faith and Credit a term from Article Four having nothing to to with finances. Faith is personal belief in the current financial system. Credit is it's credibility. As one example.
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              • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 8 months ago
                Hello MichaelAarethun,
                I'll try to avoid too many question marks. :) Indeed. Section 1: Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
                I have reviewed some of your recent comments.The Constitution is your friend. :)
                Respectfully,
                O.A.
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                • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Thanks for the follow on. How true. But the phrase has been used to describe things financial as in full faith and credit of the US Government. It still fits but since the US Government is in a cycle of bankruptcies it has no credit and the only faith is in it's printing presses. It seems most are afraid to say the Emperor has no clothes and I can - now I''m in retirement status and worse with only government pensions - certainly understand. No one wants to upset what few apples are left in their twilight years. Gold having some intrinsic value would be a better symbol of credit if it existed in those amounts but it is still something like a a red tie.I don't see the restoration of faith in the economy when the figures are skewed and they don''t add devaluation of the dollar into COLA computations.Just to name one major shortcoming. The Emporer does have some clothes. T Bills for those in that strata have more value than FDIC insurance.
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                  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 8 months ago
                    Not only is "faith" in the paper of the U.S. in doubt, but our supposed holdings of gold are in doubt if you give any credence to widespread speculation like what was revealed on shows like Brad Meltzer's Decoded: Fort Knox. Many believe Fort Knox is just a front and there is no longer any gold stored there. There hasn't been an actual full audit since 1953. Who is John Galt?
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        • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
          It would also be hulpful if we had a one line description of what we're after. My thought is reduced cost and intrusiveness of govt.

          I don't sense building frustration, unfortunately. I don't think this issue is on the radar for many people. There's a lot of " what should government do about XYZ?" but not much questioning of whether government's should be reduced overall even if on the surface its intrusiveness catches a kidnapper and provides "free" education, medicine, etc.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
          I just saw this comment. yes
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 8 months ago
            Hello khalling,
            When the government cuts down a group of citizen protesters, like what occurred at the Boston Massacre even the most timid must stand against the tyranny, if not in deed at least in sympathy and words. It would be the Casus belli. Nothing short seems to enrage the blissfully ignorant masses.
            Regards,
            O.A.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 8 months ago
          The Obama administration very much wants to create another staged fight like the so-called Boston Massacre -- so that Obama can use it as his "Reichstag Fire" and promote himself to generalissimo. Don't you read history?
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 8 months ago
            Hello jdg,
            Indeed I do. I do not relish or promote the idea. The question LS posed was "...when are real americans going to start marching in the streets? What the hell will it take?" The possible outcomes are a different matter. Now, I do feel that if enough Americans took to the streets O may not get what he wants, but history is replete with examples of bad outcomes too. The critical calculus is where the military would come down, in such an event.
            Regards,
            O.A.
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  • Posted by jnnrd54 9 years, 8 months ago
    Any recommendations from the group for new countries to consider?
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 8 months ago
      If I were going to start a new country, and places not currently inhabited (seasteading, space, Antarctica) were out, then I'd pick the nastiest Third World dictatorship I could find. Preferably one without the kind of resources that would tempt big countries to butt in.

      Beyond that the strategy depends on how much money you have, but the idea of picking a nasty dictatorship is so that if your attempted coup or revolution backfires, you at least haven't ruined one of the relatively nice countries.

      If I had the kind of money Bill Gates has, I'd simply offer the dictator and his buddies a nice retirement home and pension on a tropical beach somewhere, in exchange for going away. Then I'd make that country the next Hong Kong, so the people become rich as well as free. Then move on to the next nasty dictatorship and do it again!
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
        "Preferably one without the kind of resources that would tempt big countries to butt in."
        I imagine the newly formed Gulch in the developing country would have to do some favorable deals with big companies who have relationships with gov'ts, in exchange for being left alone. It has to be kind of like the founders doing established nations' dirty work for them. So if you had an imperfect but freer post-nation state (Gulch) paying indirect protection money to looters, you'd be shooting par. As you get more powerful, you can fight back more against the protection racket.

        I would love for someone to prove me wrong and create an ideal Gulch.
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  • Posted by Crushmore 9 years, 8 months ago
    I like to point out to my liberal friends when they complain about corporations hiding their money overseas that perhaps Atlas has Shrugged.
    Funny thing is they don't get it. They were too busy reading ,"The Jungle."
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  • Posted by Danno 9 years, 8 months ago
    Buy real assets and put some or most outside USA. When the collapse comes, take a plane there because the IRS will be kaput.
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 8 months ago
    atlas can't shrug since his hands have been tied behind his back.

    the country is in free fall. the brain dead leaders(?) living it up in wash dc are working in concert regardless what you may think against the working part of the population and obviously do not know what they are doing. we have morphed into a basic dictatorship of sorts and there is no opposition to it. regardless who gets the job next NOTHING will change.

    get used to it. and if you want a place to go to do the research and become a survivalist. all of the hostilities taking place all over the world leave little place to go to, maybe the australian out back.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 9 years, 8 months ago
    Just wait till BO starts taxing corporations more. Guess what will happen to the economy and the people who have jobs now. BO doesn't love America he wants to wreck it. I don't know who the Whitehouse Economist is who advises the Prez, it seems to me that he/she is illiterate.
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  • Posted by plusaf 9 years, 8 months ago
    And none of the comments to that link mentioned Cloward-Piven?
    Sad. Just more evidence of the inane and corrupt thinking in DC. NO concept of Unintended Consequences....
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 8 months ago
    for those of you who think that anything will change in dc with a new pres, your loony. i just read that bohener is passing the amnesty bill as well as everything else the 0 wants.
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  • Posted by Matcha 9 years, 8 months ago
    Escaping is easy. There are ways to shrug while you stay in the US or you can spread your wings and go somewhere else. With FATCA you will need to keep a bank account in the US because it takes a while to get one in a foreign country. You just need to do research. Be a free individual. No need to make a fuss since it doesn't seem to do any good.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 8 months ago
    This all about creating a huge Hispanic horde of grateful and dependent brand new voters to quid pro quo balloon a gargantuan single ruling party.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 8 months ago
      This sentiment (not the poster personally!) is exceptionally stupid thinking, even for mainstream American politicians. Hispanic-Americans are a natural conservative constituency that both Republicans and libertarian types should be courting. The ONLY reason so many of them vote Democratic is that Republicans want to continue to treat them as criminals. Our present laws limiting immigration are both unjust and futile. Support amnesty and you'll find you have a lot of new friends, and a lot more of them are producers than you probably believe if you get your data from the likes of the Heritage Foundation.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
        The Hispanic immigrants invading now actually hold liberal views. Significant data shows this. We should absolutely limit immigration for multiple reasons, not the least of which is that it is a privilege to come to America, not an entitlement. Immigrants should be allowed to enter based on the value they bring. We want the best and brightest.
        Poems on a plaque at the Statue of Liberty are that... They shouldn't be the basis for an immigration policy.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 8 months ago
        I recall Pelosi calling the Obama-made border invasion that involved so may kids "an opportunity."
        My statement is about the outcome hoped for by the Marxist progressives.
        Legally, an illegal is an illegal is an illegal.
        I recall a photo of an illegal holding a sign that said he would shoot police if he did not get amnesty.
        Yesterday I read an article that states Obobo wants to throw huge chunks of Social Security amnesty prize money at illegals at the tune of several thousand each.
        Well, I'm retired and need that secondary income. So no thank you, Presidebt Omoocho!
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 8 months ago
          "Legally" doesn't matter. A moral right is a right is a right.

          "Illegals" are only the enemies of Republicans because Republicans choose to be their enemies.
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          • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
            Their is NO moral right to come to America, as there's no right to free healthcare or a job. Republicans have no animus toward Hispanics. Americans expect our laws and borders to be respected.
            There is also the issue of cost. As Milton Friedman correctly asserted, a country can not have a welfare society and open borders.
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            • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 8 months ago
              I agree with the last sentence. But it's the welfare state that has to go.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                Welfare state must go, but secure borders are also mission critical. Without secure borders, you have no country. Just like I have no right to walk onto my neighbors property, there's no right to come to America... it's a privilege we grant.
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