Software patents controversy

Posted by davidmcnab 9 years, 9 months ago to Technology
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A discussion question about intellectual property - what constraints or qualifications, if any, should be imposed on the patentability of ideas and concepts?

In other threads, people have noticed that I get a bit fired up on the topic of patents.

I'm a software developer, and invention is what I do for 8-10 hours a day. I look at code, data and design notations on my screens and think "How am I going to do THIS? How am I going to do THAT?" "Ok, yes, this should work"...

The USPTO has for years been granting patents for trivial, obvious, mundane and even non-original software programming practices. Every day in my work, just by performing my assigned duties and engaging my intellect, I am breaching hundreds of software patents that I have never even heard of.

It's equivalent to a chef being unable to cook without infringing, because there are patents on ways of cutting carrots with a knife, and patents on methods for sauteeing onions, methods of determining if a piece of fruit is fresh by smelling it and so on. Or if this regime applied to music, a guitarist could patent certain chord progressions, even ones others have played before him. Or a songwriter could patent trivial musical devices like rallentendi (slowing the beat in places for emotional emphasis).

There are literally hundreds of thousands of software patents registered. For a software developer to know every possible patent and its scope is beyond human capability (except possibly in certain cases of profound autism or photographic memory). To search through the patent database when designing and writing code, and amending one's practices to sidestep all patents, would grind nearly all software developers to a complete halt. To submit all my code for review to patent holding firms such as Intellectual Ventures, receive a report of infringements, and pay license fees to cover these, would drive my company (and virtually all companies which develop software) out of business.

Parallel to this, even the most trivial, obvious and non-original of business methods can be patented. Even the practice of a physiotherapist phoning or texting their client 2 days after a consultation to remind them to do their exercises can be patented. Also, the USPTO has switched to a 'first to file' regime, so that 'prior art' can NOT be used to defeat patents on unoriginal inventions.

So how far should we go with patentability? What qualifies an idea as worthy of granting a decades-long legal monopoly? I recognise that we must have incentives for innovation, but the current patents regime has been starting to exert the exact opposite effect.


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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
    Well on this site we back up our arguments with proof. You make many bald statements which are either nonsensical such as what "first to file" means and the concept of "submitting code for review" to incorrect statements such as the PTO has granted patents for "obvious, mundane, (?), non original to "submitting my code for report on infringement" WHAT? no one does that. where did you even come up with that? and outright false statements regarding patenting for trivial , obvious, unoriginal ideas. The patent process is lengthy, highly vetted and argued and hard won. There is no other title to property that takes years to obtain. Your post is riddled with false information and I fear you have derived your opinion from that. You need to gain knowledge in this area, especially since you are an inventor, as you say. You need to ask questions about your premises as they are in conflict with the truth about software patents. Either that, or you are here to spread propaganda. Many of the points you make don't even make sense from a patenting process perspective. I see that you were also in support of net neutrality. Have you read Atlas Shrugged? are you an admirer of Ayn Rand?
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    • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
      Hi khalling,

      Thanks for your reply. I can totally understand your antipathy and incredulity, given that the software patents controversy has received very little if any air time in the mainstream media.

      To get started, here's a tiny list of some trivial software patents, by no means exhaustive, but valuable for example sake:
      http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Example_softwar...

      Here is a paper on the phenomenon of making trivial software inventions look non-trivial for the purpose of patenting, together with evidence:
      http://www.ccp14.ac.uk/maths/software-pa...

      Evidence regarding 'first to file' doctrine as signed into law by Barack Obama:
      http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/03/16/a-b...

      A ludicrous example of a trivial 'invention' which was granted a patent:
      http://www.google.com/patents/US6368227

      More information on triviality of software patents:
      http://www.ffii.org/Why%20software%20pat...

      Further information:
      https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/trivial-p...

      And overwhelming amounts of further information available on the academic databases and mainstream search engines.

      And in answer to your question - I have read Atlas Shrugged 4 times over the years, The Fountainhead 3 times, and seen We The Living once. And yes, I am an admirer of Ayn Rand.


      Any questions?
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
        all of your examples are compiled on sites which are anti-patent. The actual patents cited would take a fair amount of time for an expert in patenting to go through in order to answer questions of patent ability. The one cite I concur with is the IP watchdog article. No where in that article, nor in patent law does it state that first to file means prior art cannot be cited against a filer. It does mean that no longer is an inventor necessarily the one who gets the patent. Ayn Rand supported patents. In fact patents are mentioned in AS over 180 times. John Galt was an inventor. Intellectual property rights are a foundation of capitalism. My husband is a patent attorney and writes extensively on patents, software patents and patentability. He is a guest poster on IP Watchdog and has written detailed analysis regarding recent Supreme Court decisions affecting software patents. www.hallingblog.com
        His new book will be coming out in the Spring, "The Source of Economic Growth." there are many posts on this site which take on your arguments. you can search for them.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
          I am well aware of the critical importance of intellectual property to an economy of free enterprise. I remember well the sad scene in AS where Hank Rearden loses nerve and signs over his patent to Rearden Metal, unaware that Dagny was completely immune to any public fallout over their affair.

          In software, I support copyrights. I support patents for any truly non-obvious inventions. Given that software changes so quickly, however, I do question the appropriateness of the usual circa 20 year timespan, and suggest that software as a discipline would advance far more quickly with a much shorter term for the more trivial patents, even in some cases as little as 5 years. In software, 5 years is like 20 years in more tangible disciplines anyway. If patent timings and thresholds were better tuned, it would have a net positive effect on the industry.

          I for one would love to sweat for months over a difficult software algorithm then license it out for a lucrative income stream. But as an individual, I am disincentivised against this, given that I don't have the financial resources to go after infringers in the courts.

          There is also the pragmatic aspect of international competition. Part of China's massive surge into economic supremacy (now greater GDP than US economy) is that they pay only the barest lip-service to intellectual property, and only honour it if their trade routes are pressured. What if software patents, especially in their present state, are steering us into a future of economic serfdom under China?

          With regard to the 'first to file' issue - this goes to patent trolling - the practice of threatening businesses with inherently invalid patents, knowing it will cost the business far less to pay a license fee than to pay the legal costs to get the patent rightfully overthrown in the courts.
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
            Bottom first. In order to make a profession out of inventing you have to be able to monetize your invention. You have bought into the concept of patent troll of which there is very little evidence for. Ex recent Adam Corolla case on podcasting. Basically the company suing Carolla had spent years on the R&D surrounding the patent involved and had invested over 1 million dollars. A quick search on the part of Carolla's web designers would have shown they were going to violate the patent. When you buy property you check for a clean title first. Why would you not do a simple search before plowing ahead with any business model. It's just good business. "I for one would love to sweat..." You make your own argument against your other arguments. An independent inventor often can 't go after infringers. But an Innovative Ventures sees licensing revenue streams. They buy you out and you 've got something to live on while you keep inventing. Inventing should be able to be a full time profession. It was for Edison. Under the definition most use for "trolls " he would have been one. Which shows the contradiction in thinking.
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            • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago
              Some of your other concerns are procedural and do not go to the overall question of should there be this kind of patent. It is illogical and monopolistic to describe invention for everything else but....why is a software invention illegit?
              Copyrights are very narrow and protect the artistic not an invention. Finally, look at the empirical evidence. Which countries have thriving software industries and look which countries have the strongest patent systems? The macro economic evidence does not support your point of view. I don 't even understand your conclusionary remarks about China. The situation with China snd respecting IP is getting better than it was previously. It 's still a problem. Finally, life of a software patent. If things changr quickly patents become obsolete. If its important tech it 's important 20 years later.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago
                I hold software inventions (unless extraordinarily complex) to be unworthy of patenting because software is all about invention. Contrast to other disciplines like accountancy (where most time is spent following GAAP) and carpentry (where the techniques date back centuries).
                The software industry is plagued with tens of thousands of trivial patents for simple, obvious common techniques, the kind that thousands of people would easily think up for themselves independently, and do. The exact opposite of Rearden Metal in AS, an invention which nobody thought of in millennia of metallurgical practice.
                Why software is subject to this kind of abusive practice is its abstract nature. You can't see it. You can't touch it. There is no single way of objectively visualising it. A simple piece of logical sequence can be rewritten to something far more complex, dressed up for patentability, then used to attack the thousands of other developers who independently "discover" the same logical sequence, or something completely isomorphic to it.
                In industries such as mechanical or chemical engineering, it is practicable to perform patent searches for discoveries or inventions, because these professions have a much lower 'density of invention'. However, software development is virtually *all* invention. Yes, there are certain algorithms that are standard, like searching, linking, sorting and so forth. But the bewildering diversity of problem spaces means that 99% of a software developer's time is spent inventing.
                My point remains - software development is vulnerable to the morally questionable business practice of dressing up very obvious, basic techniques and presenting them as complex original works for patenting. Several jurisdictions around the world have recognised this, and have specifically legislated exemptions such that pure software is not patentable itself, unless it is part of a larger system including both software and hardware. The overwhelming consensus among individual software engineers is that patents pollute their work with ridiculous toll gates at every turn.
                If you don't believe me, I strongly suggest you talk to other software developers.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago
    This problem of IT patents utilizing software development continues to arise and many of the anti-arguments seem to come from software developers themselves. In my mind, it's a difficult question to argue for or against without getting into the broader issue of patents.

    In my younger plant and project engineering days, I was faced with replacing a 40 some year old mechanically driven and controlled adjustable hydraulic valve used to control and limit several tons in free fall or drop for annealing aluminum aircraft metals. The original valve had originated on early 1940's aircraft carrier elevators and no one could make or replace parts. I found an integrated op amp-servo valve that could be coupled to valving large enough to handle the load, but there didn't exist at that time, any off the shelf controllers. So I took an Intel 8088 board and a lot of input/output devices and built the system and programmed, with a lot of trial and error, the eprom utilizing the code supplied with the 8088. I was able to effect the modernization and since I had incorporated programability into the controls, also permit increased efficiency in the operation as well as safer structural shock loading saving a 40 year old production installation.

    As best I could determine, the application, integration of components, and programming were unique and original at the time, but I didn't consider it patentable since every component existed and the programming was enabled by Intel and it's existing code. However, using that example, I've found many in the patent arena that argue that the system as a whole, the application, and the software were absolutely patentable. To be honest, I didn't see it as such at the time, and I still don't. Had I developed the code that enabled the programming, I would have considered that patentable, but utilizing logic and speed inherent in the code, just waiting for me to discover and apply it didn't qualify.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 9 months ago
      I have had very similar experiences. I always assumed that people who get approaches like that, i.e software for an embedded 8088 to replace whatever they used for PLCs in the 40s, just slipped through the cracks at the patent office.
      I had a client once tell me we can't measure the resistance of a heater to estimate its temperature b/c that's patented. You have to have a separate RTD thermally coupled to the heater. That doesn't ring true. IANAL but I always imagined if they went a head an measured heater resistance, no one would be able to sue them successfully.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago
        Replacing a Boolean Algebra hardwired relay board with a software wired PLC doesn't encroach any patents since the PLC and associated software are already patented and sold in commerce. You pay your license fee as a part of the purchase price.

        I don't think you get what is measured when you determine a resistance. The reason you use thermocouple devices separate from measurements of the voltage and current through a resistance heater element is a matter of determining actual vs. estimated heat output. As far as I know, it has nothing to do with a patent. The voltage and current through the resistance element are still measured or diode (or other current reacting device) limited for safety purposes.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 9 years, 9 months ago
      Every Invention in the history of the world is a combination of known things and they have to have the properties necessary to make the invention work, because the invention exists The first part comes straight from conservation of matter and energy and the second part is just saying we are not patenting magic.

      The LASER was a ruby rod laser, a flash lamp, and an etalon... These all existed before.

      Your line of investigation whether something is an invention and therefore patentable is nonsensical. You have to start with reality and inventors cannot violate the laws of physics.
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