A Response to a Post on My Post, Revolution In America

Posted by straightlinelogic 10 years ago to Government
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I posted the following in response to a post on "Revolution In America," posted two days ago, however, I would like to get as wide a readership, and continuing discussion, as I can, so I am also posting it separately. The 7500-word limitation did not allow me to post the post to which I am responding. See the original "Revolution In America for that post and for what is already an extensive discussion.

My response:

EWV, implicit within your posts are the reasons I wrote “Revolution In America.” You say that “relevant to this discussion is that Ayn Rand herself discussed the role of general censorship as a criterion for a complete break with the government.” I had no idea that governments on the verge of becoming totalitarian gave you that choice. It will be nice when our discussion group reaches a consensus that the government has finally gone too far and we thus resolve to oppose it any way possible, including open or covert revolt. It’s also fantasy to think things will happen that way.

I incorporated one assumption in my article: on current trend, the government will get larger, more powerful, more rapacious, and more corrupt, and correspondingly, the liberties of its constituents will continue to diminish. Certainly no one appreciates the power of ideas and discussion more than I do, but ask yourself if that trend slowed, much less reversed, after publication of Atlas Shrugged in 1957. I would argue that it accelerated, especially since 9/11. If my central assumption is accepted, (even for argument’s sake, although I am convinced it’s correct), then the question presents itself: what can be done? If one waits until “continue to diminish” is replaced with “vanish,” it will indeed be obvious to all that the government has become totalitarian. It will also be far too late to do anything about it.

When “general censorship” is imposed, if past totalitarian practice is any guide, it will be part of a package of measures that may include: nationalization of important businesses, suspension of habeas corpus, suspension of elections, outlawing political parties, martial law, summary detention of all those known to have anti-government views, seizure of the internet and news media, seizure of private firearms, the mandatory exchange of precious metals for the government’s currency, and bans on people and money leaving the country. My guess is that it would be in response to some egregious “terrorist” incident, possibly a false flag. Under such circumstances, people might make a break, in their minds at least, with the government, but that will be the only kind of break possible.

You say that, “Denouncing most of what government has done in the last 33 years does not justify the violence and chaos of a revolution and does not make it possible in reality, let alone achieving in the aftermath.” Yes, revolutions are almost always bloody, but the blood spilled in all the revolutions in human history is a drop compared to totalitarian governments’ oceans just in the twentieth century (an estimated 100 million deaths). Faced with a choice between “violence and chaos” and abject totalitarian slavery, I’ll choose the former.

One of the things our government has done the last 33 years is to acquire what can only be described as the apparatus for a turnkey police state. As Edwin Snowden and subsequent revelations have made abundantly clear, the government has the ability to monitor virtually everything we do. You worry that my post might “makes us all further susceptible to unjust government surveillance and attack.” I think that statement is dangerously naive. I think anyone on this site should assume they are on a government list somewhere, and have been from the moment they signed up. That’s how governments operate as they descend into totalitarianism. As I stated earlier, I don’t know what incident will prompt the government to turn its key and initiate the police state, but my bedrock assumption is that sooner or later it is going to happen.

That is why I wrote my article, to suggest an offensive strategy while we the people still have some sort of capacity to implement such a strategy. As I said in my concluding paragraph: “It will be difficult, perhaps impossible, to persuade sufficient numbers to take that initiative, but in passivity lies ruin. By the time that ruin is obvious to all, it will be far too late.” Victims of totalitarian regimes are victims, in large measure, because they were unable to project trends and to conceive that those trends’ continuation would result in their imprisonment or death. Ayn Rand was lucky to get out of the USSR; most did not. Many Jews in Germany only realized that the Nazis would kill them when they boarded the cattle cars for the death camps. In America, I believe that it is much later than most people think. Do I believe that Americans will revolt while they have a chance? Probably not, but if nobody raises the possibility and suggests a strategy in a public forum, while we still have public forums of which we can avail ourselves, that small likelihood goes to zero.


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  • Posted by khalling 10 years ago
    Two things. Hastening a chaotic collapse will get us chaos. Most revolutions end up with totalitarian states. The desire to get back to our Constitution is a worthy one, but who is prepared and influential enough to lead that movement and would be in the best position to take over? When our Revolution happened, the signers of the Declaration were known to their colonies. What is our sphere of influence? Heck most of us hide our identities in participating on the forum. I support striking as an alternative. Figuring out how you can reduce your obligation to the looters and moochers so you can devote more time to the development of your philosophies and ideas and to agitate. We should be handing out copies of our Common Sense on every corner. Technology makes that easier for us. Instead of hiding from social media we all should embrace it. Join like -minded groups, find out where your "friends " are. Part of the system's power is to divide you. One thing this site does well is to bring people together. The more members we have the greater our sphere of influence. As long as we stick to our mission. Alright, that was my pep talk and rant for this Friday. As you were


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    • Posted by 10 years ago
      I certainly support the activities you suggest, but they are beside the point I made. If government failure is inevitable. shouldn't we do what we can to hasten it, and to the best of our abilities hasten it on our terms, not the government's or the howling mob's? If we don't, don't we increase the likelihood that the eventual deterioration will end up as a totalitarian state? I don't think we'll have the luxury of staying on the sidelines during the collapse, and then, proclaiming our beliefs in individual rights and limited government, get the opportunity to shape what emerges. You are quite correct, most revolutions end up with totalitarian states, especially if those who say they are passionately dedicated to liberty and individual rights sit out the revolution.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years ago
        "If government failure is inevitable. shouldn't we do what we can to hasten it, and to the best of our abilities hasten it on our terms, not the government's or the howling mob's?"
        The world is run by those who show up. We should lead by example, trying to do the right thing in the little corner of the world and the gov't where we have influence. Sharing Common Sense or Self-Reliance is good part of it.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years ago
    Hello straightlinelogic,

    For the most part it seems only establishment types are placed on the ballot and supported by election committees and financiers. If we are to avoid violent revolution and otherwise effectuate favorable change, widespread grass roots efforts for recall elections must occur or we must wait/suffer longer and attempt to persuade more to participate and vote in future primaries for more palatable candidates. The percentage of the electorate that participates fully in the political process is pitiful.

    What else can be done?

    We need a charismatic leader with good security that can rouse the electorate's support and instill belief in the face of widespread resignation, ennui. I do not see John Galt on the horizon..

    While I still hold out some hope and wish to be optimistic, I believe the masses must suffer more before they are forced to react. The government establishment statists understands all too well how to play the game. “I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.” -James Madison

    I am still witnessing the President speaking before adoring, cheering crowds on TV. Of course, he is picking his venues carefully, but it gives the impression that he is still supported by a great many. After all we have witnessed this is inexplicable to me...

    I suspect only when the burden becomes too great to bear and a vocal group of notable and powerful statesmen align such as occurred in our own revolution will real change be possible. It will take many governors and other prominent figures across the nation to face off against the federal behemoth.

    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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    • Posted by 10 years ago
      Assuming "governors and other prominent figures" are not already in jail.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years ago
        Good point. It may come to the point where Governors need to mobilize their own state militias just to protect themselves and force the government to choose. They will be boxed in like they were at Hank's hearing. The Fed's will have to use force and show it for what it is; if they have the stomach for it. If just a few governors do this and gain support of their constituents more may follow.
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        • Posted by MelissaA 10 years ago
          We could only hope, however the sad reality is not many people will have the guts to do that.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years ago
            Greetings MelissaA,
            The colonists of the American Revolution with "the guts to do that" were few also. It took the inspirational words of one man-- Thomas Paine in his pamphlet Common Sense to inspire more. While not alone, his efforts evince that one man can make a difference. It also took a victory on the part of Washington to inspire more to support the cause. His first notable major victory didn't occur until the Trenton battle (December 26, 1776).

            I do not believe any bloodshed would actually have to occur in order to back down the federal government. The act of demanding constitutionally protected sovereignty and States rights would be enough. They would no longer have the luxury of taking the moral high ground and making civil war in the name of abolition.

            Right now, many States are joining forces to fight at least two examples of usurpation... O'Care and Immigration (executive order). There is much talk of a State convention...

            Yes, we can hope. We can also speak out and demand respect for our constitution and our sovereignty.
            We can be Thomas Paines in our own way.

            Respectfully,
            O.A.
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            • Posted by MelissaA 10 years ago
              I agree and hope you are right I really do, however do you realistically that the voices of a few would halt the government's agenda?
              Not trying to be rude in any way just wondering what your views are :)
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              • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years ago
                Ultimately, the voices of a few can only be helpful if they inspire others. That said: the recent actions like that at the Bundy ranch demonstrate that one man's convictions and refusal to bend over can raise awareness and support. Once it goes nationwide, the Feds do back down... The question really is just what will it take to break the camel's back. In every revolution there is a flash point.
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  • Posted by edweaver 10 years ago
    Once again you make allot of sense SLL.

    I do have one question for people to ponder. Does anyone really think the Jews actually realized that they were going to be killed when they boarded the cattle cars? I believe they were just like most in America today that don't believe anything bad can ever happen to them. There is more to it than this but, if you thought that you were going to be killed, would you not go down fighting? But they did not fight, even as they were ushered into the chambers. Maybe I have this wrong because I was not there to witness, but I believe they held out hope that if they just followed instructions that nothing bad would happen. That is the only reason I can possibly have as to why they did not fight with whatever they had to fight with, even if it was just the fists of their hands. I have to believe their shear numbers would have been able to overtake their captors had they tried.

    Again, I do not desire or encourage any kind of violent revolution since I don't believe the outcome will be good. But I do believe we have to find a way to take back the power that has been stolen from us. IMHO, SLL has an idea worth consideration.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years ago
      That is the problem. Their numbers give them strength, but the risk to the individual causes the weakness. Had the group stormed the guards, surely they could have overwhelmed them and beat them down and escaped. But, that would have come at the cost of some lives. The individual was unwilling to take the risk, particularly when they are told a believable lie that if they merely follow instructions everything will be fine. I think that many did suspect that they were being lead to their deaths. They didn't want to believe it, so they didn't. And the personal risk of harm in charging the guards was more than they were willing to assume against a potential and unknown risk by following instructions. They could see that prisoners were in the camp, and so that made believing the lie easy, although they had no idea of how many more had been killed.

      Add to that a morality that doesn't include the type of barbarity committed against one's fellow human beings. It was totally outside of their realm of comprehension that other humans could be so evil. We should have no such lack of comprehension (but many do).
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    • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years ago
      "Does anyone really think the Jews actually realized that they were going to be killed when they boarded the cattle cars?"
      Those who love their lives most are also those least likely to recognize evil for what it is.
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      • Posted by edweaver 10 years ago
        Not sure what you mean. Are you saying they loved their lives so much that they did not realize what was happening?

        I am not sure it is about loving life as much as it is human nature to not believe people to be so evil.
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        • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years ago
          Right. Those who love their lives assume that all others love theirs as well and, therefore, cannot comprehend humans building an efficient industry whose sole purpose is death.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years ago
            But, loving my life does not prohibit me from despising yours, particularly if you are different from me - and the more easily discernible, the easier it is to despise.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years ago
    Robert; I couldn't agree with you more, both your original essay and this post. I commented on the first thread that from some of the survivor's stories that I've read, that the Jews and others brought to the camps walked to their deaths, some carrying their children in their arms or leading them by the hand. I can't imagine a more horrible ending to life. As you say, "violence and chaos" is much preferable.

    Your essay has stirred a considerable string of thoughts in my mind. Particularly how many people choosing such resistance would be enough to put the government into the ultimate tail spin. A somewhat comparable situation exists with the criminal court system, where some 95%+ cases are resolved through plea bargains. What would happen if just 20% or 30% of those accused insisted on full jury trials, or even traffic courts where a judge or magistrate might have 100 cases per day that the average person just pays instead of going before the judge and contesting the ticket. What could the state do if we just didn't renew our driver's license? A small group of the Free State Project in Keene, NH have done just that with any allegation or charge, many generated from their own activism, and have had an impact.

    As to a measure of the imposition of tyranny, through the ACA the government has essentially nationalized the health insurance system (some 7% of GDP), habeas corpus in the name of national security is suspended and we have no way of knowing how much it's been used, the everyday monitoring of citizens is in place though practical every-person-everyday may need more technical advances to fully implement, pre-crime analysis is already being tested in areas, The reaction in the national news during the last few days in response to Paris with every pundit telling us how much danger we're in is just a prelude justification for more draconian measures to be activated or announced.

    In my mind, there can't be too much discussion of these types of topics and the realization that what many of us grew up knowing and believing in about the government of this country is no more and is obviously headed for worse. If we don't talk about these things now, we soon won't be able to, and it's not long in the future.

    Is it revolutionary to not participate in your own enslavement?

    Thanks for introducing a well thought out possibility in a rational and reasoned manner. I hope you can continue.
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