One realization that has come to me, far slower than it should have, is that it is not enough to be against statism and government, one has to be for something, to have a vision of where one wants to go. The Fountainhead sounds the tocsin against the encroaching state, and Atlas Shrugged painted the dystopian future after that encroaching state has smothered everything in its path. However, Rand never presented a vision of a world in which the things she was fighting for—liberty, limited government, rational self-interest, and capitalism—had triumphed. One of the reasons I wrote The Golden Pinnacle, which you read, Ed, is to, if not show a world where those ideals had triumphed, to at least show what America was like when we approached the pinnacle of freedom during the Industrial Revolution. It is the first of a trilogy, and the third novel will offer the ultimate utopian vision.

You can look at the current nightmare and despair. You ask: “how do ever get the government out of our lives?” Reformulate your question: “how do we restore freedom in America?” It may seem a trivial point, but the first question is akin to: “how do we get the cockroaches out of our kitchen?” It’s a valid question, and the cockroaches have to be eradicated, but it’s mundane and uninspiring. Restoring freedom, on the other hand, inspires, and freedom’s proponents aren’t left just pointing out the deleterious consequences of statism and coercion (even, or especially, for the so-called beneficiaries), but can instead frame the issues in terms of people building better lives for themselves and their families, unobstructed by the state, reaping their just rewards, and rediscovering respect for themselves and their fellow citizens. People need to strive for higher goals than cockroach eradication. (Even that task sounds more palatable if you reformulate it is a part of the job of making your kitchen sparkling clean.)

If we Gulchers frame our goal as restoring freedom, then that can be done in ways large and small. Realize that like all corrupt, overreaching, overextended, overly indebted governments, ours will fail. A big part of our job will be done, but if all we can offer is: “told you so, told you so,” it will not matter. Winston Churchill said, “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing—after they’ve tried everything else.” After the collapse, many Americans will be ready to try the right thing: restoring freedom. The government will be bankrupt and continuation of the welfare state and foreign adventurism will be fiscally impossible. But intellectual revolutions always precede actual revolutions, so it is now that we must make the case not just against current arrangements, but the positive case for restoring freedom, in every way that we can. That’s what leaders do.

ed; I don't think it's so much getting government out of our lives as it is doing the work to get yourself out of government's clutches. It is hard, and getting harder everyday, but it is doable and most of it has to do with attitude.

some government can be good. can you define which parts you want to slough off? there are definitely other places to live which offer some beter de facto freedoms. But uniquely, US citizens are US citizens anywhere in the world. They take all of the risks and get none of the rewards of their citizenship when they live outside the country. That is why people are renouncing their citizenship in record numbers

"Is death the only way to rid yourself of government? "

Taking this to mean the kind of government we have now, it doesn't work. Taxes follow you there, too.

A book written by Harry Browne entitled "How I Found Freedom In An Unfree World" has some interesting perspective on the question. In a word, the answer is "No". You can see pages from the book at http://www.amazon.com/How-Found-Freedom-... . And for those who may become interested in buying the book, you can search for less expensive copies available elsewhere. But at least you can see some pages before buying.

I sure hope not. Of course freedom can be judged subjectively and one man's utopia is another's prison. Freedom is also relative and I would like to think we could regain more freedom if enough people demanded it. The question does remind me of what Franklin said: "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

Why do you want to rid yourself of the government? Don't you want to institute an agent to objectively retaliate against those that initiate force?

When you're dead you cease to exist; your chemicals remain but the life that was you is destroyed forever. Death will remove every relationship between yourself and everything else (including the gov).

The reason that I posted a planning exercise for the construction of Atlantis is to give all of us here hope that we could be both free and alive.

If you are dead there is no "yourself" to experience freedom or anything else of course. DUH.

The only way to rid yourself of government is to stop accepting the idea that you have the right to interfere in the personal choices of others and have all others agree to the same principle with regard to others (including you). If you die, you are not free. You are merely dead.

Your question about the Pilgrims, depends on your perspective. The people that this country already belonged to would not think the Pilgrims coming here was good thing. Attempted genocide, introduction of diseases, etc… My Great Grandfather talked about how his grandfather used to do whatever they wanted, went where ever they wanted, when they wanted, lived how they wanted and did not have to tell anyone or get anyone’s permission. Now that was freedom. The government hated Native Americans for many reasons, one of those reason; they knew the difference between the illusion of freedom and true freedom. That’s the philosophy I live by to this day. Governments seek to control, otherwise where is their power?

Yes, if you're an Existentialist.
Do you mean freedom in the sense of no obligations, no need to labor and to do whatever you wish whenever you wish it? If you are a human, there is no way to be totally free in that sense. Besides, you'd probably have the same problem as Adam. You'd be bored and curiosity would get the better of you. However, this does not preclude you from striving to be as free as it is possible. Always there will be obligations keeping you from total freedom; to your loved ones, your job, to yourself, etc. The greatest barrier to human freedom is others telling you what you can and cannot do and forcing you to obey. In an evil society, the use of the law, which should be beneficial is often used to cut away your freedom so that others can have power over you. To answer the question more fully, you are totally free in death, but since you no longer exist, it is a moot point.

Work toward the future.

We live in the days we live in. Little to be done about that.

But the future is ours. Manifest Destiny all over again.

Work toward new, independent, city-states at sea or in space.

George Washington said "influence is no government". Ask many union members or lobbyists about influencing anyone they can get their paws on or their beliefs to be heard. They themselves are like sheep lead to slaughter also. Many spread this rhetoric because they have been brainwashed to believe it then when the day comes and their life becomes mute the next one in line starts the cycle all over again and sometimes with changes, but trying to keep on par with the last so-called elite. Influence in this way will never give up until all is lost. Michigan 4 years back became a right-to-work law state and union participation has dropped from 22% to 16%. Unemployment is still high and will continue until we fail or many people in this state realize government has always been the problem because they trample on their own Constitution along with the U.S. Constitution. I still have hope for the latter and the real change in America that she needs. If that faction opens its eyes and sees what they have created then maybe just maybe freedom will be restored. Those men who gave their lives and all they had to start this country are rolling in their graves because somewhere in the past we all had lost that spirit that made America, but the one thing that has changed is we that want that freedom back are at least trying harder and harder. Win some lose some, but I will never give up.

This has been another great discussion. I'd like everyone to keep in mind that this post is not about dying. I never said dying was the right thing. Simply brought it up to see if others have ever considered the subject.

yes

I think that being completely free and dependant only on your own intellegance and skills is exciting for some, challenging for others and terrifying for most. Many sheeple need to be governed.

Freedom from the restrictions of society is anarchy. Even in death you are not free, you are bound by the rules of science that control your earthly remains.
Both Aristotle and Socrates wrote and spoke of death and spiritual freedom, but one must remember the were both soldiers, and a certain expectation of death is common enough.
Friedrich Nietzsche " theorized that in order to truly "live" a realistic confrontation with death was required."
But is death truly death, no one really knows . . .

Government is only necessary when people refuse to police themselves. When everyone comes to agreement on a universal set of standards and actually lives by them (and teaches their children to live by them), we obviate the need for the coercive powers of government.

Not sure we will be able to get rid of all government, as there will still need to be people to make decisions regarding public works, etc.