Follow up - What is the single purpose of government...

Posted by edweaver 10 years, 2 months ago to Politics
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The single word for the purpose of government turned into a fun discussion with many ideas and good thoughts. Thanks to all who participated. I decided to re-post in hopes that it would make it easier for all to see where I was going. It is my hope that I am not breaking a gulch rule.

I believe you can apply the word “control” to everything that government deals with at every level of government known to man. Government is not necessary to make things move because that will happen without force. I’m not advocating for more control and IMHO we have been run over with control. I’m just saying that there is no need for government except for the purpose of control.

That being said, I believe this country became so incredibly prosperous because our founder limited our governments control over the people. Unfortunately since our founding, government does what it is naturally inclined to do. It grows and consumes power.

Would love to hear more thoughts & comments


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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 2 months ago
    There are only two things that government feeds on: individual liberty and individual treasure. To preserve those, government must be limited. The Founders knew that and that is why the Constitution says what the Government can do and the Bill of Rights says what the Government can't do.
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  • Posted by walkabout97 10 years, 2 months ago
    There are only two, related, appropriate functions of government. One, to protect the citizens of the country from outside attack and two, protect each citizen from other citizens. Thus, a military system to protect from external threats and a legal system to allow citizens redress (criminal and civil) from attack from others w/in the country.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago
      And I think that there are viable mechanisms to take care of the second item privately. So really, the only necessary role for gov't is a military to protect from foreign aggression.
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  • Posted by flanap 10 years, 2 months ago
    Looking for more thoughts and comments? Here goes....

    From the Word of God...Romans 13:1–7 (New American Standard Bible 1995)

    Be Subject to Government
    1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
    2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
    3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
    4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
    5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.
    6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
    7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

    The only authorization for a person not to do as government says is when it directly, by law, or fiat, or other forceful means, requires behavior directly in contradiction to that which God requires in His Word.
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    • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 2 months ago
      Keep in mind that St. Paul wrote his letter at a time when mankind had not yet attained the Age of Reason--in the Catholic Church, this age is about seven (7). After some 2,000 years, the Age of Enlightenment and Science, I think we can safely say mankind is at least ready to use his intellect, and not simply rely on a "Command Morality"--who some ever is its determinator.
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    • Posted by teri-amborn 10 years, 2 months ago
      I can see why so many consider Christian to be equal to Platonic.
      Taken out of context your Bible quotes are right out of Plato's Republic.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 2 months ago
        Uh, having read both, I point out that the aims of the two books are entirely different. I know that to the outsider Plato's proposed government may seem to mirror the ecumenical structure of many Christian sects, but the purposes and the ideology could not be more different.

        Plato wanted to rank people based on intellect - placing those with the least intellect as common laborers or merchants, those with some intellect and sound body as the military, and those with the most intellect as politicians. The problem was that this is the basis for elitism: you have the political elite who control the military who in turn control the people.

        When Christ was asked by his own disciples who was greatest, instead of picking one of them, He selected a small child from the crowd. He told the vying parties that their purpose was to serve and minister to the needs of the people - like that child. He told them that only the child had the correct attributes by which to govern at all!

        Now I do not defend those sects which have departed from this mandate - and some have. There is principle, and there is practice. But to propose that the principles of governance proposed by Plato are equivalent to the principles of governance taught by Christ is inaccurate to say the least.

        I would go on to point out, however, that the later portion of "The Republic" does go on to point out the absurdity of the Greek Pantheon as a violation of logic. He thoroughly debunks the absurdity of a group of uber-powerful beings as capricious as the Greek Gods.
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        • Posted by teri-amborn 10 years, 2 months ago
          Correct.
          Paul had to stand on the Cointhian Church's proverbial necks in order to bring them past their carnality.
          That's what I mean by out-of-context.
          In the realm of the Spirit, it is the pure-of-heart who lead.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago
          Yeah, that's totally backwards - today we have the most intellectual in the military, those that have some intellect are the laborers, and the intellectually barren are the politicians!
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        • Posted by flanap 10 years, 2 months ago
          "Plato wanted to rank poeple based on intellect." Sounds like a eugenicist.

          Yes, the purposes are entirely different, especially since God considers partiality a sin because for no reason other than man's own selfish desires he chooses to give and withhold help and knowledge when being partial.

          By the way, for those that may think this is a universal principle, it isn't. Partiality isn't when someone does something for value; therefore, you cannot use this argument to pay all people the same rate regardless of their contribution.
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    • Posted by Solver 10 years, 2 months ago
      I disagree that everyone should be blind to men who use force to rule other men, and always submit to them. I'm sure many Jewish people also tried to disagree during those times when the democratic socialist worker party had legal authority in Germany. Even the ones who did agree not were not treated well by this government's authorities.

      Some of this sounds like some king had some scribes edit some Bible books so long ago, that it was ever done has been forgotten in time.
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    • Posted by woodlema 10 years, 2 months ago
      In the context of this scripture please remember you are subject to the "governing, or superior" authorities, however, the word used does not supersede God's laws, therefore, when Government's laws violate God's laws you are under obligation to Obey God as ruler rather than men. Written by the same person. Paul.
      Basic English
      AC 5:27 When they had brought them, they set them before the council. The high priest questioned them,
      AC 5:28 saying, "Didn`t we strictly charge you not to teach in this name? Behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood on us."
      AC 5:29 But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.
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      • Posted by flanap 10 years, 2 months ago
        Perhaps you missed the caveat below the verses...here it is again.

        "The only authorization for a person not to do as government says is when it directly, by law, or fiat, or other forceful means, requires behavior directly in contradiction to that which God requires in His Word."
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        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 2 months ago
          Flanap, perhaps you missed the purpose behind the founding of our country. The earliest post-Columbian immigrants were the Puritans, who settled here because they had a profound instinct that"No government is going to tell me what to believe!"

          Well, I probably wouldn't have made it as a Puritan, but that drive or desire culminated in the most important of our liberties--separation of church and state.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago
            Carol: Many seem to get that concept wrong. There is no statement in the Constitution expressing "separation of church and state." The First Amendment identifies that the gov't shall not establish a state religion, nor prohibit anyone from their ability to practice whatever religion that they choose. It was meant to prohibit the gov't from imposing itself on religion, not the other way around.
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            • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 2 months ago
              Yes, I generally interpret that to mean that religion and government shall not act together to oppress the people. The exact wording, I believe, is something like this: Congress shall make no act respecting an establishment of religion. Establishment, of course, in its most abstract meaning, as a vehicle for pursuing one's duty to God.
              How you got to the SOLE interpretation that government shall not establish a state religion is beyond my powers of comprehension.
              But most emphatically, religion must NOT impose itself on government! Man has spent millenia attempting to deduce this one simple fact: religions allied with government is tyranny of the mind!
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago
                If actions speak stronger then words, it is interesting to note that 3 days after Jefferson wrote those words, he attended church in the largest congregation in North America at the time. This church held its weekly worship services on government property, in the House Chambers of the U.S. Capital Building. The wall of separation applies everywhere in the country even on government property , without government interference. This is how it is written in the Constitution, this is how Thomas Jefferson understood it from his letter and actions, and this is how the men who wrote the Constitution practiced it.

                Also notice that there are two parts to the First Amendment that refer to religion: the establishment clause2 and the free exercise clause3. Today much is said about the establishment clause but there is very little mention of the free exercise clause.

                At the very heart of Jefferson's idea "Wall of Separation", is the notion that the government will not interfere with people's right to worship God. The very fact that the government has ruled to regulate religious practices, indicates that the government has crossed that "Wall of Separation."

                While Congress has never passed a Law that Prohibits Prayer in School, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that it is Illegal for children to Pray in School because it violates the "Separation of Church and State" which is not in the Constitution. Their faulty reasoning is that Praying Establishes a State Religion, but in fact, this is really Citizens Freely Practicing their Religious faith in God. The Government would be establishing a State Religion if it forced all the children to pray to a God of one type of Religion or Denomination that they did not believe in. However, Prayer in School was always voluntary and students were free not to be a part of school prayers. Ruling that students can not Pray in School violates the Constitution of the United States by interfering with the Free Practice of Religion. Thus the Supreme Court rulings on School Prayer and Bible Reading are illegal as they violate the Constitution. Thus when the Supreme Court forbids students from praying before a football game asking God to protect the players in the game, the Court is exercising the very tyranny of the minority that our Forefathers tried to stop. The Highest Court in the land has failed to Safe-Guard the Peoples Right to Worship without Government Interference.
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                • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 2 months ago
                  I am tempted to wonder how the Supreme Court justifies this ruling, in so far as any determining factor for a Court ruling is that it must be fair and just for all.
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                  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 2 months ago
                    Addendum: and Constitutional!
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 2 months ago
                      Not sure how you could have overlooked that last part ;-)

                      The court has twisted and "found" rights and prohibitions that do not exist. The SCOTUS was never envisioned as being the Last word, only another power to balance against the other two. Marbry v Madison changed it all - biggest power shift in US history. Now, the SCOTUS can write any law they like (as above), make us buy anything they want (O'care), spy on us (Patriot Act) whenever they want without a warrant, etc., etc., etc.
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                      • Posted by Solver 10 years, 2 months ago
                        Thus from specific limits imposed to cage the beast, another unlimited monopoly of force is created.
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                        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 2 months ago
                          I've thought judicial review fairly essential in keeping a check on the others branches. Unfortunately, judicial review became judicial activism in the early progressive period; apparently congress wasn't passing the right (left?) laws.
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        • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 2 months ago
          You know, flanap, I'm sure, that the Israelites asked God to give them a king. I believe they were desirous of a government similar to that of the Canaanites, instead of the judges they had at the time. As I understand it, God warned them of what exactly to expect from a king, but in the end gave in to them. They had to find out for themselves.
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