Proof that money doesn't rule politics

Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago to Politics
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Yesterday was primary election day in Wisconsin. This election featured 2 races where nearly a million dollars (or, some speculate more) was used by a candidate or on behalf of a candidate for - get this - a primary campaign for County Sheriff, and another for a Congressional seat.

It is speculated that Chris Abele (local millionaire and current Milwaukee county chair) invested at least $150k of the $400k that a PAC spent, and reportedly Michael Bloomberg sunk $150k to defeat the strong 2nd Amendment supporting sheriff Clarke - http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/d...

In the 6th WI District Congressional race, one candidate dumped nearly a million of his own dollars into the campaign to try to "buy" the seat. He was soundly rejected, coming in 3rd place - http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/27105...


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  • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 4 months ago
    Money helps you get your message out. But if the people are wise to that message, not all the money in the world will win the day for you.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      And when one puts out a false message, some might bite, but others will not - particularly when there are real honest brokers who can sort through the smokescreen and give the real story.

      We are so fortunate in SE WI to have some of the best conservative talk radio people in the nation. Mark Belling (sometimes subs for Rush), Vicki McKenna (should sub for Rush), Charlie Sykes, and Jay Weber along with a host of fill-ins on WISN radio that are just great. These folks cut through the bull and give it to the listener straight.
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  • Posted by rbunce 10 years, 4 months ago
    The 200M plus people eligible to vote and the 100M or so that do, at least in Presidential election years decide who fills the tens of thousands of elected offices. That many do not participate at all and those that do keep voting for the same candidates they always vote for is not the money's fault.
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    • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 4 months ago
      The people who vote do not decide who runs for the 2 major partys, and in most races those are the only candidates with any chance. The party elite decide who runs, and that is controlled in large measure by those who create the fiat money and credit.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
        Well, I do agree that the party elite have a huge influence, but not a 100% lock. Just look at the McDaniel race in Mississippi. Yes, the Barber faction has had a huge role in supporting Cochran, and spent money to gin up racist foment, but it took people to go and actually cast ballots (except for those who cast them from the grave, and that's just plain illegal).
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        • Posted by rbunce 10 years, 4 months ago
          Or who had voted in the Democratic Party primary earlier in the year...

          The party elite influence whoever that may be does not accompany the voter into the booth and watch how they vote.

          There is vote buying in politics... it is candidates who promise large groups of voters government benefits and services to be paid for by other smaller groups of voters. Seems impossible the Democratic Party candidates ever lose.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
    This is why I would support legislation limiting donations to originate from represented individuals. No third-party races getting influenced by national heavyweights. If you don't live in the district affected, you don't get to spend any money. Period.

    No Taxation without Representation. No Representation without Taxation.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      Wouldn't that lead to the most wealth in a district controlling the district?
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      • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
        The conundrum is whether or not to allow those not being represented by an elected official a hand in their rise to power. Though I understand what you are getting at, I can't really agree with the proposition that people shouldn't be able to use their own money to support or oppose the election of government representatives in their respective districts. I also see no reason why we can't require disclosure of donations totaling more than a certain amount so everyone knows the amount of influence being wielded above a certain level. What I oppose is the influence of outside groups in an election because they bear no responsibility for the outcome of the policies enacted by the elected. I believe in the principle of _representative_ government in its very literal form.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
          Please don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating limiting money. I just understood your comment to say that if you don't live in a district you can't contribute to or spend money to elect someone in that district. I see that as putting the power in the hands of the richest people in a district, whereas allowing the "little people" to band together from larger areas, can lead to standing up against those wealthy special interests/individuals.

          I too, believe in representative gov't. The best way to get back to that is to limit the power to tax/spend by all levels of gov't.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
            No, you interpreted it exactly as I meant it.

            And yes, I see your concern. I am more concerned, however, about outside interests - who are by far the most active political players - getting involved in local politics. For instance, right now there is a move in my area to create a National Park out of the Boulder/White Clouds area. The funding for this movement and the activists (I talked to one) aren't from my area and aren't being funded by people even in my state. They aren't even the ones who use the recreational area. That's what I'm against.

            Same thing with all those union protesters that got bused in to protest Scott Walker - they didn't have any skin in the game, they weren't going to be affected by the decisions made there in Wisconsin, yet someone from outside that voting district was willing to pay a lot of money to influence an election when they aren't even constituents! I could rattle off several other high-profile examples.

            Is there a concern about high-rollers buying our current representatives? Sure. But they would be constituents with a very vested interest in the outcome and who would be directly affected. I think that they deserve a chance to vote with their pocketbooks and back the candidates of their choice. That being said, I believe that sunshine is always the best disinfectant, which is why I would also support the disclosure of any donations over some arbitrary limit in order to publicize any undue influence.

            Do I agree that limited government spending is desirable? Yes. But that is wholly another topic than where election or issue funding comes from.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
              Read the beginning of this post. Two examples where money couldn't buy the election. It certainly can put up hurdles, but an informed citizenry can overcome it.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                I saw those, but there are still lots of other times as I mentioned where an outside party has influenced the vote. California's Proposition 8 comes to mind, as do many of the ballot initiatives to defeat State laws declaring the definition of marriage.

                Let me ask you this: do you believe that a group outside of the voting constituency should be able to affect the outcome of an election? If so, why?
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                • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
                  I don't believe that they can "affect the outcome of an election." They can inform, cajole, mis-inform, incite, etc., but they cannot actually vote.

                  btw - Bloomberg is up to several millions of dollars "invested" in defeating pro-2nd Amendment candidates, all of whom have lost. Bwuhahaha.
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                  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                    So you disagree that political ads sway people one way or the other on how to vote? Isn't that "affecting" the outcome? The affect may be greater or smaller based on the knowledge, opinions, etc. of the population you are trying to influence, but to say that it has no influence on the vote? That one's a bridge too far for me.
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                    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
                      I believe that information can cause people to change their minds (and often not). But people vote based on many various criteria - not all of which are rational or based on information.
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                      • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                        That is an effect, is it not? I wasn't contending that it determined the election, only that it affected it.
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
                          Honest communication? You have a problem with that?

                          I have a problem with dishonest communication. But should the NRA be prohibited from providing communication? Or the Am Center for Law and Justice? No, I do not support prohibition for all such types of groups, but those that lie should be forced to cease and correct their lies.

                          The solution to dishonest speech is not less speech, but rather more.
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                          • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                            Look, I'm not trying to paint you into a corner, I'm just trying to figure out what you are trying to say, because some of it isn't making much sense.

                            I don't disagree that the two groups you mention advocate for causes I happen to ideologically agree with. But I also look at the groups like the Sierra Club, ACORN, and many others who like to rabble rouse. What I am focusing on is getting back to a system of government for the people, by the people - not special interest groups of any kind.

                            The problem with having special interests involved in politics is that the politicians then give more deference to them than their constituents because they rely on them for funding for re-election. Fundamentally, I think that is one of the things that has turned our political system on its head - too many rich radicals attempting to push their agendas. I want to encourage people to become engaged in politics, but I believe that many people don't anymore because they look at all these special groups and figure that they don't need to be involved - or worse that they (individually) don't matter. Eliminating outside influence (via direct donations) on local elections is one way I see of encouraging more people to get involved. I don't think that bombarding people with more messages gets us to the end goal of moving people toward taking an active hand in their own future. I believe that ownership - having skin in the game - is the key to having a robust and healthy society. If someone doesn't have ownership, ie they aren't affected by the decisions, they shouldn't be influencing the outcome.
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                            • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
                              The problem is not the money, it's the involvement of the populace. That's not going to be changed merely by changing the money.

                              On person's rational ideological support (NRA) for example is another persons irrational rabble rousers (just ask the left - that's what they call the NRA).

                              Your fix is no fix, in my opinion, and ends up with a worse situation than it is now. At least now, I can band together with fellow like minded people and support candidates wherever they are that exemplify those ideas we support. Under your scenario, I don't get to do that, and those local with lots of money will have the only voice.

                              I don't see the answer to the underlying problem - lack of citizen involvement and understanding of the political process - being limiting money. Rather, it is in limiting those who are able to be involved to those who have demonstrated their involvement in supporting the nation. I've explained this several times, so you can find it elsewhere if you look. Or, go read the book "Starship Troopers" by RA Heinlein.
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                              • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                                I read that book. I liked it. And it pointed out and proposed a solution to political participation based on ownership - though some would consider it a bit draconian.

                                I see a major problem in politics to be the special interest groups. You don't seem to view them as a part of the solution. We'll just agree to disagree on that point.
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                                • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
                                  I merely view them as part of the landscape. Trying to eliminate them wouldn't work - as money will always find a way into a politicians pocket.

                                  As for Starship Troopers - not property ownership, but service to the nation, is what qualified you for citizenship, and the right to vote and serve political office. Big difference. No money needed to serve.
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