What Does It Mean to Shrug?--Revisited

Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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Just now reading this thread. I agree completely with khalling and stargeezey. Rand's working title for Atlas Shrugged was "The Strike"--what happens when the "prime movers" had had enough of the looters, those who felt entitled to the fruits of the labor of the producers, without feeling any need to contribute themselves. But I always believed, that once the Social Order, so-called, realized the absurdity of the Marxist slogan "From each according to their ability to each according to their need" the producers would rejoin society, and that for the most part, those who could work would be working.
Ideally, anyway, but human nature being what it is, nothing is ever ideal! I guess at that time in my life, I was still pretty optimistic.


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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 3 months ago
    I can't recall which character asked something to the effect of what else can Atlas do while struggling to hold up the world while people are undermining him.

    This was an extreme example of what happens when we don't respect people's rights. I do not think she was saying it was a good thing but rather a worse case scenario.

    It was never meant, IMHO, as a way to put a positive spin on being a disgruntled gov't employee or retiring early because you can't get along with clients and colleagues. In other words, it was a warning, not a call to adopt a victim mentality.
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    • Posted by RimCountry 10 years, 3 months ago
      That's my take on it, too, CG... In my view, Atlas shrugging was an admonition, an ominous prediction, but not at all inevitable and certainly not binding.

      Some act (and speak) as if AR had issued a call to surrender. Not hardly, not in a million years. Quitting is the easy thing to do... it's why some describe suicide as cowardly, allowing the demons to prevail.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago
        You guys make good points and Dagny's argument. Look deeper.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
          The problem with a "deeper look" is that what is advocated is a mere plot device. Do you really think that enough of the worlds "minds" could ever remove themselves so as to cripple the rest of the society? There are many capable people who are part of the problem (look at Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Michael Bloomberg, the list goes on), who will gladly continue looting and supporting the moochers. No, a societal collapse will only serve to ensure a collectivist take over and tyranny.

          There is no place to hide from this. What we need to do is to turn this back, not hasten its implementation.
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          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago
            the world has often been a mess. go back and look when Rand left Russia. she smacked into the US crash and depression. Brain drain. Important. but choose your own weapons.
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          • Posted by Maritimus 10 years, 2 months ago
            It seems to me that capability has nothing, by itself, to do with the distinction between producers and looters. There are some very capable evil people too. As to Gates, Buffet and Bloomberg, I respect them for their exceptional achievements. I have zero respect for their misguided ideologies. Actually, I suspect that Mr. Buffet liked to build an image of a progressive do-gooder, while, under cover taking shrewdly full advantage of every business opportunity coming his way. It was an advertising ploy, appropriate in a crony capitalist environment. Just my opinion.
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          • Posted by VHC1138 10 years, 3 months ago
            Actually, it's already happening. Look at quickly Bitcoin is being adopted. Why? Because it isn't a government enforced means of exchange. No government can inflate it, there are no banking fees nor can a bank stop you from accessing it. You can even create a "paperwallet" this allows you to "carry" your bitcoin in a non-electronic format. You can't be robbed (unless you seriously screw up). And, this is the best part, the people who don't have access to banking or are not allowed (because of legal restrictions) to have a business or "own" anything can still profit. I can send Bitcoin to my neighbor next store, or a man on the street, or even on the otherside of the world. This unfettered access to a truly free market allows humanity its greatest weapon against government: Apathy. Not the act of simply ignoring what government is doing, but truly working without government intervention or interference. Neither asking permission nor forgiveness. A defiant stand against government's corruption and oppression.
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
              I hope you are correct, but I'm not convinced. Bitcoins have already been "stolen" or have disappeared. And who's to say that they aren't or won't be manipulated so as to inflate the quantity? Who audits the actual number that exist? Just too many unknowns for me to feel they are the answer.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 3 months ago
    If all the creators went on strike, all that would happen would be that the rulers would create a feudal society. To really work you'd need a self-sustaining, self defending Atlantis. It's the self defending part that will be difficult if not impossible. The looters will want to loot it for two reasons. First, to enslave the creators, and second to erase the example of what is possible with freedom.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 3 months ago
    yes, Dagny and Hank are the ones who take the journey in the novel ;)
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    • Posted by woodlema 10 years, 3 months ago
      First, Dagny and Hank are indeed the ones who make the storey via their stubbornness and desire to NOT be beaten. They also have a sense of social responsibility within their own belief system, i.e. "rational self interest", to try to help society in spite of itself to feed their own personal desires and drives.
      Second, and I realize that if they, (Dagny and Hank) had this realization there would be no storey, they would have realized that much like rehab, it is not there for people who need it, it is there for people who WANT it and will do what it takes to get it.
      If they realized that, they would have quit (Shrugged) half way through the first chapter and left society to crumble faster.

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      • Posted by RonC 10 years, 3 months ago
        I took it that Dagny and Hank got that thrill of accomplishment by doing something so well no one else could even come close. It's as addictive as cocaine, as intoxicating as dry martinis. Accomplishment is the producer's adrenalin, and they were adrenalin junkies. I found AR's literary mosaic of this to be true to my experience. Sometimes we are driven to do a thing without an explanation we can articulate. To people of the mind, that is usually an emotional reason. Hank gave his accomplishments all away to protect Dagny. Protecting her was stronger than his need to accomplish. Dagny, couldn't stay in the gulch, she had to go back to the battle. IMHO not to save the country, or society, or the people that were loyal to her. She wanted to best Jim Taggart and all of the mooches that had crippled the railroad, and feel the thrill one more time. The by-product of her self interest are the seemingly altruistic benefits for others. As a side note, each of the residents of the gulch had to reach the Reardon point in their own way. The Reardon point is when the need for accomplishment is no longer as strong as another need. It could be any other need, but a producer must accomplish. Only when another need eclipses the need to accomplish can one walk away. AR, did not say this out loud, but she certainly painted many word pictures of this phenomenon.

        I have trouble debating AS on the forum, I confess. My problem stems from not being an academician. I have been an entrepreneur nearly all my life. My 4th grade teacher accused me of this and introduced the word to my vocabulary. I didn't discover AR and AS until all the hoopla with this administration. Things I think and do without deep though and literary references are the same things many people "look up" to see if it fits their philosophy. My sense of self interest and focus are ingrained from years of doing.

        I had a musician friend with the same trouble in college. He was studying some very deep concepts in music. Heady things that could be taught from books, with study and practice. My friend John found himself surrounded with gifted players. John went to school to learn these things, the gifted players already played them. The gifted players learned the technical name for things they knew intuitively. John eventually became a very successful video editor.

        My point is this; My opinion of Dagny and Hank come from 40 years of business, failing, trying again, succeeding, and so on. It may be different from those with differing experience.
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        • Posted by woodlema 10 years, 3 months ago
          I have no College Degree, have worked as a Cook, Busboy, Truck Driver, Restaurant manager, IT professional;.

          You do not need to be an academic. only someone who can think logically, and put together a string of thoughts in a logical order using facts not opinions. In fact I always rail against academics, and elitists. When you are expressing opinions, call them out, and you did that in your reply, which in my opinion places you in the top 10% of people anyhow.
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 3 months ago
    I'm probably missing something here.
    You said you believed that the producers would rejoin society. Then you say nothing is ever ideal, and you were optimistic then.
    I think you're correct - producers will rejoin society, when the time is right. Do you not believe that will happen?

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    • Posted by 10 years, 3 months ago
      I said nothing is ever ideal because there can never be a true utopia, there will always be conflict. (Marx actually said that eventually, after socialism takes effect, there would be no need for government.)
      Do I believe, now, that society will come to its senses and reject the nonsensical belief "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"? Good question.
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      • Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 3 months ago
        carol -
        conflict is not a bad thing [I'm thinking disagreement, not acts of war]; if fact, it's rather a useful thing in getting different viewpoints aired. If the conflict is resolved to the satisfaction of all, good has been done.
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      • Posted by IndianaGary 10 years, 3 months ago
        I see no evidence that most of the people in this country even care. They are too enamored by social media and the next Android/iPhone to come out. We in the Gulch are decidedly in the minority. There is much more work to do than has been done so far. Maybe, in 100 years,... Actually, I think the US will continue down the slope it's traveling until the bottom falls out and we face regression back to the third world. Anarchy is highly likely. We won't be alone, though.
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