To Be Or....What?

Posted by Herb7734 5 years, 10 months ago to Philosophy
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I was recently hospitalized with a near death situation. There's nothing like almost dying in order for one to confront one's own mortality. As an atheist in good standing, it caused me to do a lot of metaphysical thinking. It seems that the more we learn about the universe, the more we don't know. What happens after death? What is consciousness? Does it continue to exist somehow after 'shuffling off this mortal coil?" Does it have anything to do with dark energy or dark matter? We know they exist even though we can't detect them but we build a device 2 miles underground in order to detect neutrinos which would give i=us proof of dark matter. The same with consciousness in that we know it exists but have no concrete evidence. The subject is so ephemeral that we rarely discuss it in this forum. Perhaps because we are afraid to be scorned for delving into a subject so close to mysticism. I think it may be a subject worthy of our attention. There's an awful lot of big brains lurking in the gulch. What is death? What is consciousness? When "life" ends is it the same as turning off a light swith. I'm quite sure that there's not a Michaelangelo type fiure with a white flowing beard in white flowing robes playing with the universe like we would a bacteria colony. And, just what is real anyway?Help elucidate me.


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  • Posted by Dobrien 5 years, 10 months ago
    The only thing I Know for sure about this topic is
    I am very glad it was a "near death " and that you have recovered.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfW4k...
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    • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
      Thanks for that. I'm so much more use to people giving me the bird that I don't quite know how to deal with compatriots.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 5 years, 10 months ago
        Ditto Dob...#me to.
        Don't worry about the Birds your given...they are just showing you that their "Bow Fingers" are still working.
        I guess they thought you were trying to prevent them from defending themselves with that question.

        Well...let us look at this differently...This is just a thought, a theory based on what was passed on to us...doesn't make it definitive...none of us knows for sure either way.
        The 500 or so that witnessed the return of Jesus relay to us that he stated; (paraphrased) that his experience was a good one, he felt no pain, the unhappiness was gone. They also relayed to us that his wounds were still visible, where he was nailed, where he was whipped and where the Romans stabbed him to make sure he was dead.
        If we had to come up with a scenario of how this could be, I would offer that his return would have been Holographic in nature, a hologram with solidity and for that to be, there would have to be something left or recorded as his physical self.
        Maybe a quantum representation, one that holds that which is the you we know and love.

        There was the account of the bright beam of light that bust open the heavy cave door and illuminated the inside of the cave and when it stopped, the only thing left was the Shroud; which has shown us a 3D image of the person whom was wrapped within it.
        So a holographic image would certainly explain what they saw, what he felt or didn't feel and also that there would have to be something of his physical self still around...even if it was his DNA which some claim is holographic in nature.

        For an image, a holographic reflection is only a electrical/magnetic or digital reflection of the "Real Thing"...
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        • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
          I have always thought of Jesus as a fictional character. Even the name "Jesus" is phony. No one else in all of the Middle East had that name except possibly a Greek.
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          • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 5 years, 10 months ago
            Nope...the boy was real, he existed. Many have tried and failed to debunk.
            Have seen documentaries and a movie, The Case for Christ, (I think) that gave all the documenting evidence and comments and references by rulers of different city states, Rome and Egypt etc.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 10 months ago
    What we can prove about death is that our mortal bodies will decay. Beyond that - ?
    Maybe we will find out. Maybe we won't.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
      It's not the bodies that are mysterious, it's consciousness. What is it? where does it go upon death? I think that somehow the answer is all tangled up with the mystery of the planet Earth, how it teems with life and has evolved into the specialized place that is rich with the unlikely substance that we call oxygen.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
        So you are of the 'ghost in a machine' mind, with consciousness hanging around with a body and going off after the body dies to maybe bother other consciousnesses maybe as a ghostly spirit?
        Oxygen is definitely not unlikely, being the most common element of the Earth's crust at about 46%. Oxygen is the most common element in the Universe after hydrogen and helium.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 5 years, 10 months ago
        The sincere inquiry into what happens after death is what led to most, if not all, religions. The problem with religion is not the inquiry; it is the unproven conclusion, not to mention the attempts by some to use your lack of knowledge as an opportunity for them to exploit.
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  • Posted by Solver 5 years, 10 months ago
    I figure I’ll be essentially the same as before my parents met. Of course I could be wrong.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
      Apparently, the ol' consciousness continues to buzz right alongand since with sleep you can awaken since you're still alive and can relae your experience since you have a body with voice and the like, but who knows if there is no body available. Seems like the battery is worn out. Why dos consciousness choose to relate to itself often in code? Or we just can't understand what is the "real" communication without the barrier that senses imposes. I think I'd better quit now, the vehicle needs fuel.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
        One way to look at it is that, although Rand had considered consciousness as separate from existence by needing something like 'consciousness is conscious', meaning that consciousness needs no explanation in terms of objects as its cause, consciousness presupposes existence and emerges in some complex brains in living bodies. There is no evidence, whatsoever that there is anything outside of existence to have caused existence of objects, so no reason to believe otherwise.
        I just turned 79 and living on due to evidence based medicine with stents and drugs. I do not waste time trying to understand death other than the loss of complex organizations in my body and that that 'my', self, no longer exists with the death of my body, even just the death of my brain.
        My main concern with death is to find good homes for all my books and stuff. I, for selfish reasons, do not it all to go to a landfill. Also my wishes for the discarding of my corpse, only a matter that a self could worry about, just cremate it and discard the ashes with no celebration or mumble jumble prayers, not any remembrance.
        As for the death of the consciousness, it is not even like going to sleep, it just no longer exists. There is nothing to be afraid of from the none existent.
        Just hang in there as long as you still can enjoy life, even though at a lesser enjoyment if that is all one has.
        I hope that rant was somewhat understandable.
        Since I do not see any sense in prayer, I will just hope you can live more years of a comfortable conscious life.
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        • Posted by ewv 5 years, 10 months ago
          At least you have a choice to not compost your books!
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          • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
            It is only important as long as I, a self, can be selfish. Were I to drop dead suddenly, it would not matter but since I am a self it is important to me what happens to my stuff.
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            • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
              There could be hundreds of consequenses to anyone's death because
              of all the "Woulda, shoulda, couldas" involved.Remember "The butterfly effect."
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              • Posted by ewv 5 years, 10 months ago
                Any choice in life can potentially do that in unanticipated ways. He is referring to the fact that it wouldn't matter to him because nothing can matter to someone who isn't.
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              • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
                The butterfly effect is more a mathematical curiosity about chaotic systems than that a butterfly flapping its wings might change the whole system because the system is not necessarily continuous like the real number system. It is most likely discrete individual objects.
                It would be better to use the example of what would happen if slavery had not taken place to the extent that it did. Few if any of today's people would ever have been born since nearly all the future of that time would be different where nearly any ova would be fertilized by the same sperms, if they even existed to produce today's humans. Just one reason that, even though slavery was evil, that one should recognize that one would not exist today. That is why those who want reparations for what happened to their ancestors are really asking for reparations for their having been born and in a way wishing never to have been born.
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                • Posted by ewv 5 years, 10 months ago
                  Yes, the "butterfly effect" is now more of a metaphor about how some seemingly minor events may have large unexpected consequences, not that the whole world is in chaos. Either major or minor choices, good or bad, may have effects for which today that we would not want the results changed -- like being born! Demands for "reparations" are truly irrational for several reasons.
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                  • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
                    You appear o me to be a candidate for the Discordian religion which is the modern day version of the worship of the Greek goddess Eris, goddess of chaos You can learn all about it by reading Principia Discordia, published by Loompanics PO Box1197 Port Townsend,WA 98368.Some say it's satire. Some say it's not. But it is written mostly by berkely studens in the 60's, so, who knows?
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago
    I dont think much of religion, so I would have to say I am atheist too. I mean there are so many GODS out there, which one is the right one if there is one at all?

    Personally I think that our brains are similar too computers. Pull the plug and it turns off. Leave our brain cells without oxyen for enough time and the non volatile ram in our brains is gone also. Once dead, thats IT forever.
    Consciousness if interesting. Given anesthesia, I dont remember a thing about what happened. Going to sleep is a similar experience. I think when you die, the lights just go out and thats that.

    It would be nice if we all just went to another utopian place after we die, but I just dont think thats what happens. No one ever comes back, and if you are catholic you might be sent to a really BAD place after you die. I conclude that there is no place we go to when dead. We are just like a computer thats had its plug pulled out...
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    • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
      And yet....."no one ever comes back" -- how do we know if memory doesn't come back with us? It kinda ruins it to have gone through a whole life without any memory of it.
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      • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago
        exactly. With no evidence available for thousands of years, and regarding multiple gods and places that we are supposed to go after death, I just have to conclude that when its over, its OVER.
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        • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
          Unless one day science could extract memory from brains and file them....Imagine the memories of great men, perhaps with a bit of censorship.
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          • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago
            You probably mean while the brain is still alive". So the issue would be if one could download whats in one brain into either another physical brain, or a virtual brain of some sort (usb drive). That has been the subject of science fiction for a long time. It would be pretty cool if it worked.

            There are technical issues in that a brain is also used to sensory inputs and motor outputs, so one would have to duplicate the input nerves and motor nerves in order to get much use from the replacement brain.
            Very cool to actually do this, and someday it might happen...
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  • Posted by dukem 5 years, 10 months ago
    I can recall when I was about nine years old laying upside down on some concrete stairs to an old building of some sort, and looking at the world upside down. It for me was a very mystical experience which cannot be described in words.
    Later on, a month of so later, I began to wonder, as best I can express in words, where would I be had I not been born. I was absolutely certain "I" would exist somewhere in some way, even though I would not have had a body. It was a very real and life changing experience for a 9 or 10 year old.
    Later, in my twenties, I explored alternate realms of consciousness (yes, psychedelics were one way to access that sort of thing, but not the only way), and came away with the certain knowledge that our ordinary consciousness is but a small part of "reality", however that may be defined.
    As I approach my 76th birthday, these questions have deeper meanings to me. And I still don't "know" but I definitely "wonder" more.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
      Consciousness becomes trickier, it seems once the brain gets involved. It is like a person in an apartment. You can only function with what the apartment (brain) can provide such as utilities. etc. When you sleep you dream and escape the limitations of the senses, then, you must learn to to control the dream state.
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    • Posted by $ gharkness 5 years, 10 months ago
      So if you don't mind a question: are you still absolutely certain that "you" would exist somewhere in some way, had you not been born? I have never had the 'benefit,' such as it may be, of any sort of psychedelic, so it's possible I'd have a different outlook if I had.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
        I had 5 low doses of LSD in 1965 and found that, without all the real craziness, that it just makes life harder because one's perceptions need be reinterpreted. They are changed by having a different chemical neural transmitter but are distorted. What you get is a different consciousness which has to be interpreted with respect to your previous memories. Of course, if the dosage is large enough, one's consciousness is distorted enough, because the brain has been poisoned by the large dose, that all one can do is wait 12 or so hours to return to a more rational mind. I do not recommend experimenting with any drug and LSD has the problem, even at low dosage, of having possible flash backs where perception gets a bit wavy.
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        • Posted by ewv 5 years, 10 months ago
          Yes, hallucinations are not perception; they are internal. They may lead to a "different outlook" of some kind, but not for the good and not an outlook on reality, as you found out the hard way. Why did you do it?
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          • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
            I was in grad school having panic attacks and wanted to see whether it would help. It didn't, it made them worse. Shortly after that a guy in my computer class in 1965 introduced me to Atlas Shrugged even though he had his Objectivist subscription canceled for not asking a question correctly. I find that many of those who find problems with Objectivism still find it an excellent philosophy. It is probably why I am still alive because of the individualism rationality of the heroes. I always was a science and math guy and other than reading novels that my dad had, I had no interest in the political or philosophical. Then with Rand I could build a sense of life that was worth the effort of living. Having no forced religious training, I was happy to read stuff which did not have to be backed up with a god. In my early years there was no intervention in to the lives of children who would now be in the autism spectrum. I was most probably within that as a high IQ kid but one who never tried to make friends, just had acquaintances, just liked reading though I never was able to spell well but getting much better because of capitalism producing all the useful things such a built in spell checkers.
            Sorry, that was more than you wanted.j
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            • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
              Your story could be mine. And, probably that of many others. Because children tend to see things in a greater black and white fashion and kids whose brains are not mature until at least their mid twenties the world around them seems insane. Nothing makes sense When my father would berate me for not being a kid who could earn money, I worked out a lawn mowing scheme, but then he wouldn't allow me to use the lawn mower. I flipped out almost to the point where I totally lost it. I thought he would be proud of me but instead just the opposite occurred. It didn't make sense to me that adults could be so entirely irrational. So - growing up in an irrational world, Quantum Physics ' apparent contradictions didn't faze me.
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      • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
        You're asking me? When it comes to human consciousness, what does "existence" mean? This is where we need to differentiate between thought and reality. Because reality can be a product of consciousness or not, it is very easy to screw up and confuse one with the other.
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        • Posted by $ gharkness 5 years, 10 months ago
          Herb, I think it may have been a case of two people typing at the same time. While I certainly am interested in hearing your thoughts about the matter, as you shared them, my original question was intended for dukem.

          I've also noticed that when I hit "reply," this forum software doesn't always position the comment where I thought it would be!
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      • Posted by dukem 5 years, 10 months ago
        A number of psychedelics were abused, as we all know, which I define (I could write a book, actually) as taking the materials in an unsafe or unsupervised situation, or in other circumstances that can lead to paranoia.

        All my sessions were attended by professionals in the field, and so I did not have to worry about things that others did who mis-used it/them, in more open and uncontrolled settings. Later on, I was able to administer my own, and in very few words, my experiences were very transforming at the most, and quite penetrating at the least.
        I saw aspects of my behavior and life in ways that I had not before, and while not always pleasant (some were stark terror, in fact), I was able to work through those experiences and learn a great deal from them.
        I found them a great tool for learning very deeply about any issues or problems I had with my life, could see other people differently and more benignly, and my experiences ranged from the aforementioned terror to extreme bliss and satisfaction.
        In a phrase, I learned, not always pleasantly, to take responsibility for my life and for my experiences, whatever they were, and to integrate them into my life so that I came out more satisfied, more appreciative, more loving, more kind, and more aware.
        And I have the ability to move between those spaces and less pleasant spaces, and be in control of my experience, rather than let it control me.
        Another phrase that I would use is: I learned to take responsibility for my life and for my experience.
        This was a time when I had credentials of two masters degrees in engineering, had served as a naval officer during Vietnam (never at that location), had a quite responsible job in Silicon Valley before it was known as such.
        One final thought: Many of the ideas that came out of Silicon Valley were hatched during or after hallucinogenic trips.
        I consider psychedelics a great tool when handled knowingly and responsibly. I do not think I would be alive today were in not for those experiences. I am 75.
        To answer the question that started this rambling of mine, I never did learn the answer to "where would I be had I not been born" because it is unimportant to me know. I know that I exist, and that is good enough.
        By the way, my associates in these experiences jokingly called flashbacks (which no one ever experienced other than as memories, "free lunches." :-)
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        • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
          A phrase I learned from Branden which has helped me at certain times: I am (name) and I am enough. There is more to being a hero than a particular moment. I think childhood and parental influence can be crucial. But that's another discussion. "heroes are made, not born."
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  • Posted by BCRinFremont 5 years, 10 months ago
    Quantum theory does postulate that, in our little universe, we are all connected because we all come from the same point of creation. What this means concerning consciousness of or in that creation is the trillion dollar question.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
      Having come from large number of changes, that is with time, all that can be said generally for the about 165 billion light year diameter Universe, is that all is related but not observable because the finite speed of light keeps certain information from ever reaching our part of the Universe. For the hidden part of the Universe it is necessary to extrapolate from far away matter which is still seen to be affected by what is beyond our observational horizon.
      If the value of a question is whether the need for knowledge has anything to do with living on the Earth, then I would put a very low value on a great many questions, including that one.
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      • Posted by ewv 5 years, 10 months ago
        Yes, the value of the "trillion dollar question" is greatly inflated. Consciousness in its varying forms, including our advanced form, evolved in life on earth relatively recently, not in whatever established the form of the physical universe.

        Inferring what happened too far way for light to have reached us to make it directly observable is the same principle as everything else in physics that requires inference of theoretical entities not directly observable. Our conceptual consciousness makes such inferences possible.
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        • Posted by lrshultis 5 years, 10 months ago
          Have you ever tried to figure out the non locality nonsense from quantum mechanics where two entangled objects somehow lose locality when far from each other so that some signal has to travel instantaneously between them.To me locality is the identity of an object at the time of measurement. EPR was right in that an object which has no ability to change its identity and that has not been interacted with will keep its identity and be measurable as it would have been when created. Quantum mechanics as usually interpreted discards an objective reality and pretends that an object pops into existence when a consciousness observes or measures. Sheer nonsense.
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          • Posted by ewv 5 years, 10 months ago
            Greestein & Zajonic, The Quantum Challenge tries to describe the relevant locality experiments and deductions from them. Not enough is known about what is happening to draw fundamental conclusions.

            Observation creating reality is a favored "interpretation" but most physicists go about their work without regard to that.
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          • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
            My initial reaction to Quantum physics re: entanglement was the same as yours, but as T find more the degree of improbability expands and gets more fantastic I realize that we are in the situation of the blind man trying to describe an elephant by touch alone.We have so little data that what we do have prevents us from "seeing" the whole picture.
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  • Posted by BCRinFremont 5 years, 10 months ago
    The human brain does not have the capacity to understand much beyond the limit of our 3 dimensional existence. As for the 4th dimension, can anyone define what Time even is? Mathematics seems to point to many more dimensions in our universe. Physics hypothesizes many more universes. My guess is that any scenario that can be imagined can also happen.....
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    • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
      I'm not quite as sure as you as to what the brain is capable of. 100 years ago, we were sure we knew something about the universe and then a young whippersnapper named Albert Onebeer or Einstein screwed everything up and proved the product of our senses bore nothing that was real.
      One hundred years from now-- who knows?
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  • Posted by edweaver 5 years, 10 months ago
    What happens when you sleep? Other than dreaming or partial awakening, are you conscious? I don't think so. I suspect there is energy that may translate to a brief period of huluciation or dreaming but short lived. In reality, I don't think anyone knows because once gone, no coming back to tell about it. Glad you made it through and wish you well.
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    • Posted by $ gharkness 5 years, 10 months ago
      I look at it more as "what was it like before I existed?" Seems to me (with of course every possibility of being wrong) that it's likely going to be just like that. It's a great thought topic for right-before-sleep. At least it is for me, as unsettling as it is for me, for now.

      Glad you didn't find out this time, Herb!
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      • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
        Thanks.
        But, what if congratulations are not due?. What if it's really a "better place?" Consciousness without the burden of a body to maintain. How would it manage without senses? Humans are very mysterious creatures indeed. Wait. It just occurred to me. if death is like a dream state, that means you are creating your own universe nanosecond to nanosecond Now I wonder, whose dream am I a part of? Mine? Adams? Pardon me while I go lie down.
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        • Posted by $ gharkness 5 years, 10 months ago
          Well, of course, just my take on it, but for me: until I know something different, I'll take what I have :-) That could change, depending on how much I like "what I have." For now, though, I am satisfied. Quite satisfied, actually.

          And to give my take on your question: if it is a better place, it'll wait. I'll agree - it's pretty much ALL a mystery.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 5 years, 10 months ago
    reference...."knowledge and certainty" vs :faith and ignorance"...and lecture 4 by NBI.(Nathaniel Branden Institute...free on you tube)...The God Concept...then email me at: mia767ca@aol.com ...john kelly
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  • Posted by brucejc04 5 years, 10 months ago
    Well written. I am 81 and worry about my library also. Please give consideration to a "natural burial" as opposed to cremation as that is both natural, more ecologically sound and does not permanently waste good real estate.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 5 years, 10 months ago
    For years I have take comfort in the fact that a belief, by definition, is neither fact nor truth (yes, they CAN be but.......) and a strong grip on Nietzsche's "necessary fictions" which are beliefs that cannot be proven to be true and sometimes can be proven false, but are, nonetheless, necessary to sustain life.  They are convictions that satisfy the need for stability. Nietzsche contends that all belief systems are ‘necessary fictions.’  They are fictions because they cannot be proven. They are necessary because without them we would be rudderless in a world of chaos. I'll be 76 in a couple of months and am tired of trying to figure it all out and, so, will be content with my personal necessary fictions. I'm glad you made it Herb!!!
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  • Posted by exceller 5 years, 10 months ago
    "It seems that the more we learn about the universe, the more we don't know."

    Socrates came to the same conclusion 2,500 years ago by stating "The more I know the less I know."

    "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"

    It is not mysticism: it is simply that we have no knowledge beyond death.

    However, there is vast literature about our connection to the universe and the universal. That may be a worthy subject for exploration.
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    • Posted by 5 years, 10 months ago
      I'd say that when it happens to me, I'll let you know. But Houdini said he'd try but no record exists that shows any success on his part. If Houdini couldn't do it, who devoted much of his life to it, I doubt if Ill be able to do it.There must be a very strong prohibition if indeed,, there is any possibility of remnants of consciousness.
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