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  • Posted by sfdi1947 10 years, 3 months ago
    Dr. Savage was once a noted member of the staff at Detrick, but he began seeing boogey men at every corner, and when you're trying to evaluate real threats, that becomes a National Security Issue.
    Ebola is an RNA - factor virus, meaning that it must have host protein to multiply. The size of the outbreak in Sierra Leon and Liberia suggest a slight mutation, that it is more viable, more motive, that, however, is in Africa.
    If you watch the Videos you'll see a major difference in the equipment used. I was horrified to see the Samaritan's Purse people in what amounts to enhanced surgical garb. They should have been in Racal3's, an overpressure suit made with anti-rip/puncture proof Kevlar and integral climate control. Why this occurred I do not know, but without doubt it enhanced the risk by 25 - 35 percent.
    Ebola, and all the Hemorrhagic fevers, while very serious, are not the threat portrayed by the braying media. Patient 0 was entered into the U.S. with the full knowledge of the best healthcare system in the world, and that system is what negates the risk by a large percentage.
    The West African who travelled to the Northeast on Saturday is quarantined. So while there is a risk, it is minimal.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 3 months ago
      Thank you sfdi. Major hospitals deal with diseases that are more infectious than Ebola. To take an extreme example: There are an average of 7 cases of Plague every year in the US, so about every other year one case of those would be the pneumonic form - much more contagious than Ebola. As sfdi has noted, there are known ways of handling these epidemic diseases. A disease that spreads through contact with 'body fluids or blood' (as opposed to spreading by someone 'breathing on you') is not difficult to contain by comparison. Ebola is endemic in Africa because there are animal reservoirs there - such reservoirs do not exist in the US.

      The healthcare that a patient receives in the US is going to be considerably better than what he would get in most parts of Africa. In a case where supportive therapy is the only tool you have, this is going to have a major influence on the outcome. _I_ would certainly prefer to be taken care of in the US if I had Ebola!

      If the possibility exists for creating a vaccine, we should do so. If the FDA is inclined to be cooperative and we can leverage public opinion for the developer of the vaccine to have a lower cost of research with respect to the approval mechanism, then this is also good. (Getting the FDA to approve a new drug can cost millions of dollars - this is part of the 'surface tension' that drug companies have to consider when deciding to develop a new drug or vaccine.)

      I have never had to suit up in a biohazard suit, but I have had to draw blood from isolation patients under circumstances short of that. If I had the proper biohazard equipment, I would not hesitate to work with an Ebola patient. You have to take the right precautions (SOP's!) and know what is going on (thinking).

      Jan

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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
        Ever been around a boy scout troop after weenies and beanies night at summer camp? A biohazard overpressure suit is a minimum requirement ;-)
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  • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
    Wouldn't this be the perfect time to discuss one thing Rand never once treated: how does a voluntary association of homesteaders (like the Gulch), or a state running itself along Objectivist lines, deal with communicable diseases? Does applied epidemiology have any proper place in an Objectivist state? And how would the Gulch Committee of Safety handle a contagion like this?
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 3 months ago
      I would think that a 'Gulch' or the state run along Objectivist lines would either be peopled by Objectivists or those that have accepted the reasoning and principles of Objectivism. Any rational person would not want to cause the death of others and would therefor accept and participate with epidemiology for deadly diseases such as ebola.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
        All of which means that some institution like the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention would have its place under either a Committee of Safety or an Objectivistic constitution. Again, here we have a question that Rand never treated--nor, if their search engine behaved correctly, did the Ayn Rand Institute. The comments I see in this thread are the first such treatment, by students of Objectivism at any level, I have ever seen.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
      It would be considered an involuntary initiation of force against others and therefore, segregating the infected would be a rational limitation on their liberty.
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      • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
        Now let's get this down. You're saying any infection, with potential morbidity and mortality above a certain level (to be defined by law?), constitutes a weapon, and the "bearer" of said weapon must be "disarmed."
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
          Well, I'm no Objectivist nor am I steeped in all the writings of AR, but that's how I would interpret the situation. It's not that it's a weapon, but it is a deadly force and nobody should be allowed to subject another to initiation of deadly force.
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          • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
            Would the conscious development of such a germ as an explicit weapon, constitute casus belli just for making it and having it?

            Could you imagine any scenario in which a wild-type infectious agent, if endemic in any nation-state, constitutes casus belli against that nation-state? (That is to say, just how virulent would the agent have to be?)
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            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
              For me, merely creating same would not be sufficient to be a casus belli, unless there were independent info that identified that not only was it being developed for use, but that actual use was planned. In such a situation, I believe that pre-emptive force would be appropriate. But that's just me.

              For the second para - are you saying that it is not created, but merely exists? If the latter, then no, but it would be cause for strict quarantine. How virulent? Good question. For one infected and dying, that would be sufficient. That said, life is not fair, and an individual cannot expect to be free from natural hazards. The issue is that an infected person can choose to self-contain or to subject others to exposure. If they choose to subject others to exposure, that is an initiation of force and you have a right to protect yourself.

              A good parallel is a person with AIDS who intentionally does not protect their partners. That is an application of deadly force and they can and should be arrested and segregated from society.
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              • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
                OK, now we're getting somewhere. Here's the problem: choryza ("a cold") is one thing. Influenza is another. T.B. and leprosy are at yet another level. At what level does or should the law say, "Stay home or we will put you under house arrest"?
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                • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
                  Well, there are many viruses that can be deadly, but generally aren't so. The flu, for instance. For most healthy individuals, a bought of the flu is a nuisance, but not deadly. For some, particularly those with compromised immune systems, the flu can be a death sentence.

                  There is a responsibility on both parties, in my view. Those with susceptible immune systems should take prudent care not to put themselves in harms way. Those with potentially deadly viruses should not place themselves in situations where they might infect those most susceptible. Inadvertently cross contaminating those at risk by those who are risky is a consequence of life - so long as both parties have exercised prudent care.

                  Again, just my reasoned, but humble opinion.
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                  • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
                    It's a start, anyway. We now have accepted the principle that a Center or Centers for Disease Control and Prevention would exist under a Committee of Safety or an Objectivistic constitution. Rand never once spoke about it. Neither has the Ayn Rand Institute or any of its subsidiaries.

                    We can hope such a center would stick to hard, objective (pun intended) science, and not manipulate results for the benefit of those trying to sell a solution for artificial acquired immunity that would carry a greater risk of harm to the persons (in the aggregate) embracing that solution than the disease itself might present. Rand did say this: one must not equate the potential with the actual, nor especially sacrifice the actual to the potential. That suggests the concept called "herd immunity" would be anathema to her and would find no place in any planning she would sanction.

                    In case anyone here hasn't heard: many today advocate for abandoning artificial acquired immunity and using diet and other means to strengthen the in-born special (meaning "of a species") immunity of human beings, and facilitating natural acquired immunity. That generally means risking exposure to the disease itself and strengthening one's natural constitution to help one go through a bout of the disease with significantly less morbidity or threat of mortality.

                    You mentioned AIDS up-thread. I presume you were speaking of Gaetan Dugas, whom the popular media generally accept as having been that Patient Zero who brought AIDS to North America. See Shilts R, "And the Band Played On," and other such chronicles. According to these, Dugas abused his position as an airline flight attendant to find persons to be intimate with, and almost cheerfully dared authorities to arrest him (and presumably dared his government-run airline employer to fire him). The airline culture (that is, flight attendants, flight officers, and anyone else connected with commercial aviation) have a phrase for such behavior: "the jet job." The usual context for that phrase "jet job" is adultery and blackmail. Here it means Dugas stands accused of using fornication to wage biological warfare on the customers of the airline for which he worked, and the public at large.
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                    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
                      Why would it need to be a separate institution? Why couldn't it merely be a policing function with sub-contracting to a health entity for such evaluations?

                      I'm definitely not in favor of adding any more to government than is minimally necessary to carry out on-going tasks. And those should not expand over time. If anything, they should decrease as the society becomes competent in the situation.
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                      • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 3 months ago
                        Policing implies to me the old problem of the 'hammer and nail.' I would much prefer a separate community health bureau, again assuming we're talking a 'Gulch' or 'Objectivist government.'
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                      • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
                        To translate your idea into the present government system, it sounds as though you'd have a stripped-down laboratory within the FBI. (And limit the brief to communicable diseases with the most severe morbidities and the highest mortality rates.)
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                        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
                          Ideally it would be outsourced to a private firm/hospital and only used as needed.

                          This is interesting and all, but where's it going?
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                          • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
                            I'd like to see it go to an essay from the Ayn Rand Institute.

                            You know what the collectivists always say. They want to point to "services" the USA and most Western countries get from the government, and suggest such services would be non-existent, sub-standard, or restricted to "the rich" or their favorites. (As if that's not true today.) I aim to anticipate such arguments.

                            That, by the way, is why I am on this forum. I don't object to talking about current events, even current events outside the pending release of AS3. But, given the name of this forum, we ought to be ready when the collectivists scornfully ask us, "How would YOU handle it?"
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                            • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 3 months ago
                              In most instances, the best answer is "the private marketplace will provide."
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                              • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
                                True. I certainly don't dispute that.

                                I just wanted to address the epidemiology question, because Rand did not treat it. The closest she came to treating it was her essay on emergencies. In that essay, she defined "emergency" and suggested this was the one and only occasion in which one person owed another any favors.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 3 months ago
    I was listening to Armstrong and Ghetty this morning on the way in to work. They are local guys for us. I was shocked to hear them just kind of joke about this and go on with, "I'm not worried..." When I hear media people who are known for a more conservative approach cease to use logic in things like this it catches my attention.

    There is a lot of money to be made by this. The fact that it could kill thousands of Americans doesn't matter. And, I must add...in my technical work I have done analysis of hospital design and construction - particularly of hvac and plumbing systems. I can tell you that there have been many lies already told to the public about how safely they are housing these patients. These people running this are either clueless (could be, I've seen plenty of that by doctors) or this is some planned disaster.

    This is being run by the same people who can't stop MRSA, even though the methods for doing that are simple, yet not being carried out.

    Word of advice...Hospitals are the most dangerous places you can be. If in one, get out ASAP. Feeling decent post-surgery? Get the hell out as soon as you can. Man...the stories I could share...
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    • Posted by sfdi1947 10 years, 3 months ago
      Abaco
      As a CBRN/BIDS NCO, I think I'll choose to disagree. MRSA is not a virus, it is a contact born pathogen, a vector of itself. Hospitals that have trouble with it have bad/inadequate staffing problems, and inadequate environmental health & safety protocols in place.
      Ebola, with the exception of several novels and B Movies, is not weaponized, that is a micron sized aerosol, it requires infected fluid transfer, and in our temperate climate, with normal supportive care would only replicate if fluid is transferred.
      Assuming an untraced carrier patient 0, a maximum infectivity of 5 to perhaps thirty might occur. and DHS would lock the country down tight, let me assure you that they can, within two or three hours of Patient 0 going missing. That would be a worse case scenario and morbidity would probably be around 10 to 15 percent of the total infected.
      RNA- viruses like Ebola mutate as they replicate and they lose their ability to replicate after the second or third mutation.
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  • Posted by Solver 10 years, 3 months ago
    It used to be hard to believe that a single person or group could do something so utterly stupid, in those end of the world type movies. It used to be.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 3 months ago
      Agreed. This disease should be kept on the African continent or on ships off the shore of Africa. But hey why not bring them here...the 100,000+ illegal children coming have a wide range of contagious diseases and they are bussed and flown to every state. Anyone else see a threat?
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      • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 3 months ago
        That's the intermediate solution no one--not Donald J. Trump, not Michael Savage--mentioned. Send a hospital ship to anchor off shore, water-taxi the patient(s) out to her, and treat him/them on board.
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 3 months ago
        Before they're dispatched to each state, they have to have a thorough exam by a medical doctor from CDC Atlanta who has worked on Ebola patients, just to make sure.

        However, we won't tell you of what they're making sure...

        And you thought all those "zombie apocalypse" movies were fiction, eh?
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  • Posted by $ arthuroslund 10 years, 3 months ago
    The Ebola virus or something like it has the potential to bring down civilization and create a new Dark Age.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 3 months ago
      There will never be another "dark age." America would be the most significant and innovative country in the last few centuries. We have shared our knowledge with everyone and anyone who wanted it. The loss of America on this planet would be a blip in time..a fond recollection of prosperity in the gradual stagnation of future events.
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  • Posted by BrettScott 10 years, 3 months ago
    Let's say (hypothetically) POTUS is facilitating wholesale illegal immagration, and (again, hypothetically) one of the illegals brings Ebola to California and it wipes out 40% of the US population. Isn't disease one of the reasons we control immigration? Will the press hold him accountable?
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    • Posted by LesEolides 10 years, 3 months ago
      If one creates a "crisis" then one may use it, according to Alinsky, ("not let a crisis go to waste.") for? I will let your imagination fill in the blanks, mon ami! OK, so I can't shut up; it's about "protecting THE PEOPLE, Comrade!"
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 3 months ago
      At this point I'd say no one is stand against him except the American people (and they are lawful enough to be held in check- for now- by the legal process they still cherish)
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  • Posted by LesEolides 10 years, 3 months ago
    America (and the west in general) has "Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome." It worships sickness; it's bent on its own destruction, embraces each new infection and enemy with open arms. We're doomed!

    The only relatively healthy European country is oddly enough, Russia; though they have their problems too...

    I adore Dr. Savage's monologues... especially when he uses the words (will try to capture intonation) SENNNNNNNNNNsitive and CAAAAAARing, etc. That tickles me to no end. Self-inflicted sickness and suicide on a national level becomes humorous for a moment...

    It's due to the poison "flower power" of the 1960's coming to full bloom...

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  • Posted by $ arthuroslund 10 years, 3 months ago
    Definition
    Ebola hemorrhagic fever is a severe infection. It can have a mortality rate of up to 90%. The infection can occur in humans and animals.
    Causes
    Ebola hemorrhagic fever is caused by the Ebola virus. The virus can pass from person to person through blood or other bodily secretions. When these fluids come in contact with skin or mucus membranes the virus can pass and cause the infection. The virus can also pass through contaminated needles.
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  • Posted by BradA 10 years, 3 months ago
    Here is my less conspiratorial theory on why these infected subjects were brought to the US. Given the rising numbers of Ebola infected victims overseas and given the ease of travel today, it seems that the most likely introduction and spread of this disease outside of Africa will come through our grossly under monitored airports or our even less monitored borders. The question seems to be less if than when. As such, the CDC probably wants to be able to observe and experiment on infected subjects using their best equipment and minds (ie. local) so as to get a handle on the disease before the inevitable.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 3 months ago
      Sensible - if it was a standalone issue. A degree of separation between the infected and 320M people would be wise. A hospital ship. a remote facility on an island.
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  • Posted by Frank899 10 years, 3 months ago
    There is a cure as documented by our own US government; https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...
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    • Posted by LesEolides 10 years, 3 months ago
      Oh? Then why are they not using it?
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      • Posted by Frank899 10 years, 3 months ago
        Because this weaponized strain has a mortality rate of 90%; which is identical to the UN Agenda 21 suggested depopulation goal.
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        • Posted by LesEolides 10 years, 3 months ago
          OK... I'm no epidemiologist... are you saying that the CIA created AIDS to kill Black People... or something similar? You used the word "weaponized." If so, who did so? Define "UN Agenda 21" if you would. I'd string all of those bastards up and have them shot, were it my choice,,, guess that makes me a "War Criminal" or something...
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          • Posted by Frank899 10 years, 3 months ago
            I can't comment on who or what agency. There are stories of the Bill Gates Foundation operating a lab there - ostensibly to research the disease. This particular strain of Ebola is more deadly than those previously-encountered. It is also very possibly transmitted in the air. That's totally new. Google United Nations Agenda 21.
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            • Posted by LesEolides 10 years, 3 months ago
              OK; thanks for your feedback. Who knows what really goes on... Nothing, really, would surprise me. But, since Africans (or, in America, "African Americans") are worshipped as gods on film, in the media, in sports, in modern "music" (I use the term with a smirk) and in just about every other way... and, since most "liberal" types bend over backwards to show how much they adore anything African... It seems a bit of a stretch. If, on the other hand, Americans (as with the atomic bomb, which was originally meant for use in Germany...) they were still going on about that tribe, then at least it would make cultural and historical sence. I have several old books from the WW I era... what they said about the Germans was just insane, and unbelievable by any sentient humanoid possessing even an ounce on intelligence.... Life is strange, and craziness has been the norm for at least a century.

              Regards - "Les Aeolides" - a servant of the God of the Winds in "classical" mythology... If you like classical music, google that phrase, written by the French composer Cesar Franck in 1876 after encountering the "mistral" while on vacation in the south of France... heard the music in 1978 and knew what it was about... Obviously impressed me greatly, hence my "handle" - "aeolides" being attendants to Aeolus, in Classical mythology... Guess I'm a pagan!
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