Struggling through religion
Posted by PriMe 12 years, 2 months ago to The Gulch: General
First time Commenter, long time Christian. I've always struggled with faith. After 40+ years, I have come full circle.
Professor DeFacto: "You must believe without proof". This statement was always the tether.
PriMe: "What if IT isn't real?" I would question.
Professor DeFacto: "IT is real, read for yourself" (from the Bible)
More words from more men...
Wouldn't the existence of a Supreme Being be impossible to miss?
Professor DeFacto: "You must believe without proof". This statement was always the tether.
PriMe: "What if IT isn't real?" I would question.
Professor DeFacto: "IT is real, read for yourself" (from the Bible)
More words from more men...
Wouldn't the existence of a Supreme Being be impossible to miss?
However, I am now leaning towards learning as I go along, not relying on someone elses wisdom that states: "I also, haven't seen it, but I know it's there!"
"That man, the unsubmissive and first, stands in the opening chapter of every legend mankind has recorded about its beginning. Prometheus was chained to a rock and torn by vultures - because he had stolen the fire of the gods. Adam was condemned to suffer - because he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Whatever the legend, somewhere in the shadows of its memory mankind knew that its glory began with one and that that one paid for his courage."
The lessons of mythology are not "magical tea pot in Jupiter" fantasies. They are the life lessons that speak to the human psyche that Rand clearly understood.
The Prometheus she speaks of was alternatively seen as either a hero of humanity and the bringer of light, flame and knowledge, or a villain who brought the curse of the gods upon humanity. Those who saw Prometheus as a hero understood the importance of being cause over ones circumstance and those who viewed him a villain were those who agreed to be the effect of their circumstances.
Prometheus is the Greek version of Adam and Pandora is often linked with Prometheus as Eve is with Adam. The mystics, those priest class dictators are the ones who used the Garden of Eden mythology and turned it into a punishment tale, but an objective mind, unconcerned with the science of mythology and only concerned with its message can readily discern the purpose of Satan entering Eden in the form of a serpent as its meaning was to convey that no evil could enter Eden in its natural form. Eden was a place without evil and with only good. It was the serpent who informed Adam and Eve that by eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not simply the tree of knowledge as Howard Roarke presents it) would know what God knows about good and evil.
Adam and Eve's action in eating that fruit was not reckless with the effect of original sin, but rather heroic in that they were given a choice, to stay in Eden for eternity and remain forever ignorant or eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and know what God knows. They chose the latter and this was their answer to the call to adventure.
That is the problem with zero, and nothing. They are part of existence. So using them for proofs of the existence or non existence of a prime mover is self referencing. Also, do we have a clear definition for the prime mover? No.
What do we know? A = A, existence exists. We (humans, information gathering structures) exist. So whatever cosmology you come up with cannot preclude existence and our existence. Work from there. If you value the answer.
I am not saying that nothing exists, I am saying existence cannot exist without nothing.
Whether it was a "single mind" or a "singularity" that created this universe, if humanity is to know the universe objectively then either way less and less discoveries will be the case. If the universe can be known wholly objectively that if and when humanity achieves this there will be no more discoveries.
Further, what has been discovered is radiation with a spectrum that agrees with the Big Bang Theory which confirms the the universe began as an explosion. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in explaining this because it is really irrelevant to what I said. The confirmation through discovery of radiation with a spectrum in agreement with the Big Bang Theory comes nowhere close to explaining what the hell a "singularity" is. Your imprudent use of language regarding science suggests you most likely cannot explain a "singularity" any better than astrophysicist can.
Sadly, what you do, and hardly objectively so, is to compare mythology to science. Both seek to provide answers, but their methods are radically different. Mythology is not "fairytale", and in referring to it as such you have now revealed not only a woeful ignorance of science but of mythology.
Objectivism is about eradicating ignorance not spreading it.
Okay, There's a magic, invisible teapot in orbit around Jupiter. Prove me wrong. If you can't, as you say, you must accept the existence of the said teapot as a real possibility.
So, are you ready to accept the existence of my magic teapot? If you are ready to claim that you can ignore some minors concepts of Objectivism like A is A when it applies to your personal beliefs, you must be ready to accept mine promptly.
Spouting off language you've memorized doesn't make you smarter. You have to actually understand the language you are speaking to do that.
Why not?
Chances are as scientists we are conditioned to see it only one way, and never to look at the other option.
So you got no idea what you are talking about the trademark, right? It is wrong to assume that you got no answers whatsoever regarding your unknowable-knowed entity?
Ah, those pesky scientists who tries to explain the world through the "conditioning" of scientific inquiry and objective reality! If they looked harder they might have found God having a poker game with Bigfoot and that guy who said that you can have the butter and the price of it aboard a UFO orbiting Jupiter...
There's over 3000 recorded instances of "Deities" in human histories Many of them have been told to have performed miracles so grotesque it would boggle the mind. Other rode in battle with humans as recorded in the illiad. This being said, no single objective proof of any them existed out of the folk tales dictating their exploits.
Now, you are telling me, without any objective claim, that there's a supreme being out there making things spins left instead of right. Well, if you can't prove it, there's no reason for me to not shove this idea with the 3000 other ones without even giving it an eyelash.
You have the right to come here with a page of the mystic's playbook and claim it is true. If it tickles your fancy, I will not stop you. It's your life. Please take note that I have warned you.
Have a good life.
I have also studied Descartes, and on the issue of the Mind/Body Problem I fall squarely in the Dualist camp and it appears that Ayn Rand falls squarely in the monist camp at one moment and then a moment later it appears as if Rand is a dualist. She argues the Objectivist should reject the Mind/Body dichotomy but then later will make arguments such as this:
"I want to stress this; it is a very important distinction. A great number of philosophical errors and confusions are created by failing to distinguish between consciousness and existence -- between the process of consciousness and the reality of the world outside, between the perceiver and the perceived."
~Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology~
This distinction between consciousness and existence is dualism. She is arguing that the mind is something separate from existence and as such something different from the brain, or body. Rand understands on a fundamental level that our mind is separate from our body and that fundamental understanding becomes a basis for spirituality. Why Rand had such a problem with this is her problem, but it has never been mine. I can fully appreciate her distaste for those she calls mystics and I can still be in awe of the mystical.
The mystics she refers to are those who embrace a hooga booga language to mystify their laity. Lawyers are as guilty as shamans when it comes to priest class mystical incantations. Legalese is nothing more than that. It does not speak to the law, but rather seeks to subvert it and the law they want you to believe is an invention of mankind is as natural as your own existence.
As to your question of the impossibility of a "Supreme Being" being missed, my answer to you is yes, and would ask you to take a look in the mirror tonight to catch a glimpse of that Supreme Being. Not the physical body you inhabit, but the Supreme Being that is you. Take a look, it is impossible to miss and that is the relationship between observer and observed.