Struggling through religion

Posted by PriMe 12 years, 2 months ago to The Gulch: General
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First time Commenter, long time Christian. I've always struggled with faith. After 40+ years, I have come full circle.

Professor DeFacto: "You must believe without proof". This statement was always the tether.

PriMe: "What if IT isn't real?" I would question.

Professor DeFacto: "IT is real, read for yourself" (from the Bible)

More words from more men...

Wouldn't the existence of a Supreme Being be impossible to miss?



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  • Posted by 12 years, 2 months ago
    A lot of great thoughts have been expressed. I also think that there is much to learn in our universe.
    However, I am now leaning towards learning as I go along, not relying on someone elses wisdom that states: "I also, haven't seen it, but I know it's there!"
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  • Posted by Solver 12 years, 2 months ago
    Like the song, imagine there is no heaven and no hell. Now imagine none of us ever even heard of these places. Would we tend to act more or less rational? Could each of us live our own lives better? Would we be better off overall? Or, would we need to invent something else to tell us how to live our own lives?
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  • Posted by 12 years, 2 months ago
    "Do not say that you're afraid to trust your mind because you know so little. Are you safer in surrendering to mystics and discarding the little that you know?" J.G.
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  • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
    There is a point that is getting missed about religion and its use of mythology, and oddly even a point Rand herself seem to miss even if she was "somewhere in the shadows of her memory" aware of it. Consider her own language in writing Howard Roarke's speech defending the primacy of humanity against all other external forces:

    "That man, the unsubmissive and first, stands in the opening chapter of every legend mankind has recorded about its beginning. Prometheus was chained to a rock and torn by vultures - because he had stolen the fire of the gods. Adam was condemned to suffer - because he had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Whatever the legend, somewhere in the shadows of its memory mankind knew that its glory began with one and that that one paid for his courage."

    The lessons of mythology are not "magical tea pot in Jupiter" fantasies. They are the life lessons that speak to the human psyche that Rand clearly understood.

    The Prometheus she speaks of was alternatively seen as either a hero of humanity and the bringer of light, flame and knowledge, or a villain who brought the curse of the gods upon humanity. Those who saw Prometheus as a hero understood the importance of being cause over ones circumstance and those who viewed him a villain were those who agreed to be the effect of their circumstances.

    Prometheus is the Greek version of Adam and Pandora is often linked with Prometheus as Eve is with Adam. The mystics, those priest class dictators are the ones who used the Garden of Eden mythology and turned it into a punishment tale, but an objective mind, unconcerned with the science of mythology and only concerned with its message can readily discern the purpose of Satan entering Eden in the form of a serpent as its meaning was to convey that no evil could enter Eden in its natural form. Eden was a place without evil and with only good. It was the serpent who informed Adam and Eve that by eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (not simply the tree of knowledge as Howard Roarke presents it) would know what God knows about good and evil.

    Adam and Eve's action in eating that fruit was not reckless with the effect of original sin, but rather heroic in that they were given a choice, to stay in Eden for eternity and remain forever ignorant or eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and know what God knows. They chose the latter and this was their answer to the call to adventure.

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  • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 12 years, 2 months ago
    The existence of nothing is impossible. Nothing can exist outside of existence. Therefore, there is no need for a first mover/prime cause, and there can't be any such thing as an omniscient, all powerful, and all loving being.
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    • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
      How does one exist outside of existence? In all of existence there are no contradictions only flawed premises. The existence of nothing may be highly improbable but not impossible. The idea that highly improbable events do not occur is easily refuted mathematically. Highly improbable outcomes become certain If all possible outcomes are highly improbable.
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      • Posted by Signofthedollar 12 years, 2 months ago
        Nothing is key to existence. Just as zero is critical to mathematics, the place holder. So saying existence of nothing is impossible is meaningless. Also, there is a problem with the statement "Nothing can exist outside of existence" existence is mostly nothing, so nothing cannot exist outside of existence.

        That is the problem with zero, and nothing. They are part of existence. So using them for proofs of the existence or non existence of a prime mover is self referencing. Also, do we have a clear definition for the prime mover? No.

        What do we know? A = A, existence exists. We (humans, information gathering structures) exist. So whatever cosmology you come up with cannot preclude existence and our existence. Work from there. If you value the answer.
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        • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 12 years, 2 months ago
          Nothing is an anti-concept. There is no such thing as nothing. I am referring to metaphysics, not mathematics.
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          • Posted by Signofthedollar 12 years, 2 months ago
            I am afraid that the nature of existence requires it. I understand you're referring to metaphysics but without the anti-concept there is no existence. Existence is made up of matter,energy,space and time. Without space there is no existence. Now if you want to argue that space is not nothing, go ahead.
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            • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 12 years, 2 months ago
              You're conflating terms in order to remain correct. There is no such thing as the existent "nothing." "Nothing" does not exist. The (idea) of an opposite of "something" needs to exist for conceptual thinking.
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              • Posted by Signofthedollar 12 years, 2 months ago
                Nice way of saying I am cheating. Which I am not. For example If I could remove all the space (the nothing) between all the matter in body what would the result be? A incredibly dense point that would have the same mass as you. But you as a person would cease to exist. Your existence depends on the nothing between the matter that makes the structure that is you. Do that to all the matter, energy and dark energy in the universe and what is the result. Something like the initial conditions at beginning of the universe. Which had no existence.

                I am not saying that nothing exists, I am saying existence cannot exist without nothing.
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  • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
    In today's cosmology there is a belief that the universe is made up mostly of a material that cannot be seen, cannot be interacted with, and yet we somehow know it exists by how it affects things around it, yet never leaves a trace. Sounds pretty familiar if you tell me. No one will claim we as yet know everything about the universe, I say the same about God, it is something that is a continuous learning and discovering process.
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    • Posted by Superintendent 12 years, 2 months ago
      However, the deity hypothesis asks for an oversimplification of our universe's understanding. The hypothesis states that everything in the universe is the fruits of the labor of a single, unknowable entity. If this was the case, there would be less and less discoveries in the fields of physics, astrophysics and genetics since a single mind would had produced everything we can see. In this case, the last scientific discovery to make would be to find the "Made by Steve" trademark somewhere in the universe.
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      • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
        The Big Bang Theory does the same. The prevailing theory, The Big Bang Theory posits a "singularity" of which no one can adequately explain. Attempts to explain it lead to concepts such as "infinite density" which mathematically is as mind boggling as God.

        Whether it was a "single mind" or a "singularity" that created this universe, if humanity is to know the universe objectively then either way less and less discoveries will be the case. If the universe can be known wholly objectively that if and when humanity achieves this there will be no more discoveries.

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        • -1
          Posted by Superintendent 12 years, 2 months ago
          Here's a little point you forgot: The big bang is proven true by objective science. The existence of a god named Steve is not. If you can easily tell that the universe is created by Steve, I can easily say that it is not and that your point is utterly worthless. Sadly, unlike the Big-Bang, no science known to man ever proven the existence of any bronze-age fairytale.
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          • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
            I have to respectively disagree, the big-bang is still a theory, with some backing to be sure, but is still an argument can be made against it as many scientist do to even this day. This is where people have problems with science, we start using absolutes when none belong, there are always exceptions which means there are no absolutes in science that is.
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            • Posted by Superintendent 12 years, 2 months ago
              Please take note that gravity is a theory. So is germ theory for diseases. Are you accepting those as theories too? Or maybe you want some special pleading for your pet cause?
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              • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
                Gravity is actually a known force not a theory. Of the four known forces gravity is the only one that has not been confirmed by experiment. Asking people to take note of erroneous will only attract attention to the erroneous assertions. Entrenching oneself in their own ignorance is common among men, and was something Ayn Rand hoped to overcome by developing Objectivism.

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              • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
                The way gravity works is a theory the fact that things fall down is real and observable at least when on a planet or large enough body. yes the idea microorganisms are cause of many diseases has support behind it, also that many more microorganisms in and about our body make us healthy as well. The break down would be is if all microorganisms cause diseases.
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          • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
            Your lack of scientific knowledge is showing. Nothing is ever "proven" in science. Even understanding the process of hypothesis to theory to law is all to often misunderstood and people often ask questions such as "when does a theory become a law" but this is like asking when does an apple tree become a single apple, or asking how does a novel become a single word. It is foolish to claim to be objective and then declare a theory has been "proven". There is no objectivity to this what so ever.

            Further, what has been discovered is radiation with a spectrum that agrees with the Big Bang Theory which confirms the the universe began as an explosion. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt in explaining this because it is really irrelevant to what I said. The confirmation through discovery of radiation with a spectrum in agreement with the Big Bang Theory comes nowhere close to explaining what the hell a "singularity" is. Your imprudent use of language regarding science suggests you most likely cannot explain a "singularity" any better than astrophysicist can.

            Sadly, what you do, and hardly objectively so, is to compare mythology to science. Both seek to provide answers, but their methods are radically different. Mythology is not "fairytale", and in referring to it as such you have now revealed not only a woeful ignorance of science but of mythology.

            Objectivism is about eradicating ignorance not spreading it.

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            • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
              We need the discussion open and willing to listen to each other, so please lets continue being respectful and avoid name calling. That's all tools of the left, and i believe as objectivists we are much better than that!
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            • Posted by Superintendent 12 years, 2 months ago
              "Objectivism is about eradicating ignorance not spreading it."

              Okay, There's a magic, invisible teapot in orbit around Jupiter. Prove me wrong. If you can't, as you say, you must accept the existence of the said teapot as a real possibility.
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              • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
                Petulance is no more a part of Objectivism than is ignorance. Instead of admitting you cannot effectively explain a "singularity" or better yet effectively explaining it you deflect with banal petulance. The -ism of Objectivism is what you seem to adhere to and treat it as if it is dogma rather than a method by which to better inform yourself. Treating Objectivism as dogma is every bit as religious as those you seem to revile.

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      • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
        Why would that be true? I don't see the correlation between physics discoveries, which I see as human understanding of the universe, and the universe God created? An omnipotent, omniscient being that stays true to form may never do such a 'humanly' thing as leave a trademark or the likes of. This is the dangers of putting God on the same level as what it is to be human, IMHO.
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        • Posted by Superintendent 12 years, 2 months ago
          "An omnipotent, omniscient being that stays true to form may never do such a 'humanly' thing as leave a trademark or the likes of"

          Why not?
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          • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
            If I had an answer that would automatically either limit God, as his thought processes would be able to be understood by a limited being or that would make me like him omniscient, which I'm not. I can only say that without any evidence of a so called 'trademark' he chooses not to be like us. With that said, how could we tell the difference between a naturally occurring event and one that is made by God? ie. if God made it rain one day, how would that be different from a natural rainfall?

            Chances are as scientists we are conditioned to see it only one way, and never to look at the other option.
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            • -1
              Posted by Superintendent 12 years, 2 months ago
              "If I had an answer..."

              So you got no idea what you are talking about the trademark, right? It is wrong to assume that you got no answers whatsoever regarding your unknowable-knowed entity?

              Ah, those pesky scientists who tries to explain the world through the "conditioning" of scientific inquiry and objective reality! If they looked harder they might have found God having a poker game with Bigfoot and that guy who said that you can have the butter and the price of it aboard a UFO orbiting Jupiter...
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              • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
                Never said that, but if we follow a definition of omniscience and omnipotent, there is no way I could possibly know, besides it's hard for me to know what my wife is always thinking let alone a God. I never claimed God was totally unknowable any more than its unknowable for 'dark matter' to have an effect on matter around it without seeing it. Please lets keep civility in this, no need to be mocking or derogatory. For this discussion I do have a background in physics and genetics, while it makes me not an expert, it gives me enough incite to know that the universe is big enough for God and man's scientific pursuits.
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                • Posted by Superintendent 12 years, 2 months ago
                  Look, there's a single point I would like to get across to you instead of opening my registry of 5 years old questions regarding deities; you are in the realm of beliefs, not in the realm of reality.

                  There's over 3000 recorded instances of "Deities" in human histories Many of them have been told to have performed miracles so grotesque it would boggle the mind. Other rode in battle with humans as recorded in the illiad. This being said, no single objective proof of any them existed out of the folk tales dictating their exploits.

                  Now, you are telling me, without any objective claim, that there's a supreme being out there making things spins left instead of right. Well, if you can't prove it, there's no reason for me to not shove this idea with the 3000 other ones without even giving it an eyelash.

                  You have the right to come here with a page of the mystic's playbook and claim it is true. If it tickles your fancy, I will not stop you. It's your life. Please take note that I have warned you.

                  Have a good life.
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                  • Posted by gblaze47 12 years, 2 months ago
                    True enough, I'm not here to convince you of anything, as there is no need too. I see that there is more to the universe than simple equations made by people, you do not. I see a cause and effect that is not limited to humanities poor mental capabilities, you do not. I care very little of books that have no frame of reference to anything today or in the past except for a few moments. I know what I'm talking about is much more than a 'fancy' nor is it about my life. Looking at your claims to 'mystic' playbooks I wonder which one you play by? If you were suddenly thrown into a society that technically was at the bronze age and you went on proclaiming that all matter was made by a mysterious invisible object called an 'atom' which no one could ever see or feel or determine to be exist. How do you convince someone of something when you have no way of showing them at that time? To be honest up until I was 30 years ago, I thought the same way as you, then I learned. Have good one yourself.
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  • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
    While I have long been a fierce admirer of Rand and for quite a while considered myself an Objectivist, many other Objectivist would castigate me for my belief in God. I was born and raised Catholic, and while I have many issues with the Catholic Church, particularly the Vatican, I have never rejected my religion, and even though that religion demands I never dabble with other religions, I have. I have studied Zen, the Tao and Buddhism all as a part of my philosophical yearnings.

    I have also studied Descartes, and on the issue of the Mind/Body Problem I fall squarely in the Dualist camp and it appears that Ayn Rand falls squarely in the monist camp at one moment and then a moment later it appears as if Rand is a dualist. She argues the Objectivist should reject the Mind/Body dichotomy but then later will make arguments such as this:

    "I want to stress this; it is a very important distinction. A great number of philosophical errors and confusions are created by failing to distinguish between consciousness and existence -- between the process of consciousness and the reality of the world outside, between the perceiver and the perceived."

    ~Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology~

    This distinction between consciousness and existence is dualism. She is arguing that the mind is something separate from existence and as such something different from the brain, or body. Rand understands on a fundamental level that our mind is separate from our body and that fundamental understanding becomes a basis for spirituality. Why Rand had such a problem with this is her problem, but it has never been mine. I can fully appreciate her distaste for those she calls mystics and I can still be in awe of the mystical.

    The mystics she refers to are those who embrace a hooga booga language to mystify their laity. Lawyers are as guilty as shamans when it comes to priest class mystical incantations. Legalese is nothing more than that. It does not speak to the law, but rather seeks to subvert it and the law they want you to believe is an invention of mankind is as natural as your own existence.

    As to your question of the impossibility of a "Supreme Being" being missed, my answer to you is yes, and would ask you to take a look in the mirror tonight to catch a glimpse of that Supreme Being. Not the physical body you inhabit, but the Supreme Being that is you. Take a look, it is impossible to miss and that is the relationship between observer and observed.

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    • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 12 years, 2 months ago
      The mind is part of existence. It's primacy of existence vs primacy of consciousness.
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      • Posted by JeanPaulZodeaux 12 years, 2 months ago
        Consciousness is the mind, existence is the brain. This is the fundamental Mind/Body problem that has never been resolved. There have long been two camps, those who believe the mind is separate from the brain (Dualists) and those who believe the brain and the mind are the same (Monists). We can engage in a Hegelian dialectic making our best arguments for each, and I would offer as my thesis that Dualism. If you choose, you can take the antithesis of Monism. In my best argument, the closest I can come to finding a resolution of this Mind/Body Problem is to ask who is making that choice? Is it your brain compelling you to make the choice, or is it your mind simply making the choice?



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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 2 months ago
    It all depends on what you think "proof" of a Supreme Being is. A flower blooming, a healed illness, or actual scientific proof. I grew up religious, but I no longer am as I haven't been to church in decades and don't care for organized religion whatsoever, although I haven't moved completely away from faith itself. It isn't logical on most days, but I can't totally let it go, nor do I want to. To each his own...
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