I agree with Adam Smith in that all labor and development should be free to move as it chooses. If it is not free then all are slaves. The problem isn't that America is great and it entices criminals to come. It is criminal in its intent which draws the criminal mindset to it. America has become like the rest of the world. Nothing but looters. When asked why East Germany allowed to wall to be torn down I replied; "Because there is no difference between the East and the West so they no longer need a wall to keep them separate. The socialists understood this but the dupes on the side that thought they were for freedom did not.
The fact is, our country has dramatically changed since Ayn Rand was here. It is the changes in our country that make it dangerous to have open borders. It is us, not them that has to change before we can have open borders.
If that were to happen, I can see problems down the road when populations cluster and turn those areas into "S**T Holes". I still say, that to be open bordered we must have Everything in common; language, culture, laws, money and moral norms and currency...otherwise we'll just have One Big Mess. Right back to our days in Babylon...as you know, that experiment failed epically.
Can't have cannibalistic, barbaric, illiterate cultures mixed in with Conscious, peace loving, creative, productive, educated cultures.
Yes, you have THAT Situation which is a primary driver. But then you add Chain Migration, and the ability to vote into the mix... and the group that thinks far enough ahead, realize that they can run the country by beating us at the polls.
What's sad is that they USE THE LAWS AGAINST us, while breaking them, to USE THE LAWS AGAINST us to change them, to USE THE LAWS AGAINST us to in the end and take our country and turn it into their very countries they ran from.
“The Powers” have little to do with it. They will be just as destroyed as the rest of us. The people supporting open borders think that when all is said and done they will have their money and position, and millions and millions s who will vote for them and all will be well. But they are in for a surprise! The masses will take their money and property too, and the only help their position might be is an extra biscuit at breakfast - if that
maybe I should have said it this way: Cloward and Piven and Alynski. "Make the powers live by the rules that they made. If we demand this to the Nth degree, they can't and we win."
It's both. If we did not have anchor babies, and illegals, we would not be a mostly Blue country. And if we had better laws (not the 1965 Immigration Act) then we would not have the first 2.
Finally, what good are laws if we CAN'T enforce them? Florida is now sprouting Sanctuary Counties in the bluest counties... So that when the voting happens, Florida will swing Blue like CA all the time. One generation is all we have left for most swing states. And then it is officially over.
Please remember what the Electoral College map looked like for ANY Republican... None of this is an accident.
Powerful and rich people are playing their games and gaming their plays!
I believe she would be for open borders with appropriate restrictions for potential terrorists. However, only in the context of no Welfare State benefits until they became citizens (given the WS does exist at all).
The problem with open borders is that nobody who has a stake in the country they live in would immigrate. Instead, those who would immigrate would be the poorest, the least educated, the least skilled. They would bring their slum-generated diseases, many of which are non-existent in the US. That’s already happening with the resurgence of tuberculosis being brought into the US by illegals. Our social safety net would be totally overwhelmed and, in fact, destroyed. We would see third world shanty towns growing up around our cities. Crime and drugs, drug crimes and gangs would become rampant. The government would have to seize property, assets and bank accounts to try to meet the demands for benefits, but would ultimately fail because these people would keep coming and coming, and in the millions. For these and other reasons I do not believe Rand would have stood for open borders for a minute.
You dropped the context of a non-Welfare State. And upholding the constitution and rational Fed/State laws, that would not be the result. But of course we don't have that environment....
I did assume a welfare state, because that’s what we have. You’re right that if we followed the Constitution and Fed/State laws (and enforcing them) we would have a much, much smaller problem. That’s why I fight every day to return the Country to the Constitution and our Founding Principles.
If access is controlled for screening it isn't an open border. The only way to get in is through entry points where people can be checked and denied if they don't meet the qualifications.
As with most burning issues of today, there are so many interrelated wrongs that is almost impossible to find a right. IF government only existed to protect individual rights through the police, the military and the courts as Objectivists believe, then open borders would be moot. Immigrants would only be restricted during times of declared war with their country, or infection with contagious disease. As a preemptive measure those convicted of violent crimes would be excludes but this would require a lot of limitations. We can't deal with this issue because we are a welfare state and our policies are based on altruism, statism and corrupted politics. Our racism, bigotry and fear that someone will earn some reward that should have been ours further hinders our thinking on immigration and with all of the above we have a Gordian Knot.
In America, white people are too entitled to work, black people did their work, as slaves, so they don't have to work any more. Physical labor is done by brown people, Hispanics, Asians, Middle Easterners, etc. We don't want the damn jobs and we want the results but we don't want the people that make it all possible. I think we don't have an immigration problem but we have many problems that get exposed when this issue is discussed.
She did not like Reagan, for a specific example, and he was sure a lot better than his opposition. For a general answer, she railed against Libertarians claiming they were stealing her philosophy --- which of course was patently not true. She then exhibited what I call Libertarian Derangement Syndrome and vehemently opposed all who called themselves Libertarians without regard to what any of those people said. Real-life politics just wasn't her forte.
Political errors? Reagan had serious flaws; primarily, he was too religious and transformed the Rep. party. Her view had nothing to do his opposition.
She disliked Libertarianism for its lack of a moral foundation, etc., not claiming that they "stole" from her. Her politics flowed rationally from the rest of her philosophy. And as a philosopher, her focus was on principles, not the pragmatism of "real-life politics". If people followed her philosophy, there would be conflicts with real-life.
You are apparently much younger than I, because used to argue the same way. Except, I argued against her inner circle explaining being a libertarian is the political expression of Objectivism in that it advocates the NAP (which Rand seemed to think she invented, but has a 3,000 year-old history. Frankly, I have better things to do than rehash crap I have seen for the last 50 years on Rand and libertarians. I doubt you will change your mind no matter what I say. Cognitive dissonance at work.
So you are saying Rand was immoral? She would Take the life and value of others?...Morality is the basis of everything good and Rand, in my observation, expected everyone to be moral, ethical and just within objectivism. (rational celf-interest - starts at the cellular level.). That's my take anyway.
So, you don't think Objectivism has a built in morality?...Rational celf interest dictates that objectivity be moral otherwise, it would be irrational...Right?
You do not seem to be following the thread well. I referred to Libertarian morality, not Rand's morality. I fully understand her philosophy. Rational self-interest IS the central point of her morality: "rational" is the key word - one acting for his own sake and welfare without any interference of others' rights.
Previous comments...
I still say, that to be open bordered we must have Everything in common; language, culture, laws, money and moral norms and currency...otherwise we'll just have One Big Mess. Right back to our days in Babylon...as you know, that experiment failed epically.
Can't have cannibalistic, barbaric, illiterate cultures mixed in with Conscious, peace loving, creative, productive, educated cultures.
What's sad is that they USE THE LAWS AGAINST us, while breaking them, to USE THE LAWS AGAINST us to change them, to USE THE LAWS AGAINST us to in the end and take our country and turn it into their very countries they ran from.
The people supporting open borders think that when all is said and done they will have their money and position, and millions and millions s who will vote for them and all will be well. But they are in for a surprise! The masses will take their money and property too, and the only help their position might be is an extra biscuit at breakfast - if that
Cloward and Piven and Alynski.
"Make the powers live by the rules that they made. If we demand this to the Nth degree, they can't and we win."
And if we had better laws (not the 1965 Immigration Act) then we would not have the first 2.
Finally, what good are laws if we CAN'T enforce them? Florida is now sprouting Sanctuary Counties in the bluest counties... So that when the voting happens, Florida will swing Blue like CA all the time. One generation is all we have left for most swing states. And then it is officially over.
Please remember what the Electoral College map looked like for ANY Republican... None of this is an accident.
Powerful and rich people are playing their games and gaming their plays!
However, only in the context of no Welfare State benefits until they became citizens (given the WS does exist at all).
Our social safety net would be totally overwhelmed and, in fact, destroyed. We would see third world shanty towns growing up around our cities. Crime and drugs, drug crimes and gangs would become rampant. The government would have to seize property, assets and bank accounts to try to meet the demands for benefits, but would ultimately fail because these people would keep coming and coming, and in the millions.
For these and other reasons I do not believe Rand would have stood for open borders for a minute.
And upholding the constitution and rational Fed/State laws, that would not be the result.
But of course we don't have that environment....
You’re right that if we followed the Constitution and Fed/State laws (and enforcing them) we would have a much, much smaller problem. That’s why I fight every day to return the Country to the Constitution and our Founding Principles.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articl...
In America, white people are too entitled to work, black people did their work, as slaves, so they don't have to work any more. Physical labor is done by brown people, Hispanics, Asians, Middle Easterners, etc. We don't want the damn jobs and we want the results but we don't want the people that make it all possible. I think we don't have an immigration problem but we have many problems that get exposed when this issue is discussed.
Real-life politics just wasn't her forte.
Reagan had serious flaws; primarily, he was too religious and transformed the Rep. party. Her view had nothing to do his opposition.
She disliked Libertarianism for its lack of a moral foundation, etc., not claiming that they "stole" from her. Her politics flowed rationally from the rest of her philosophy. And as a philosopher, her focus was on principles, not the pragmatism of "real-life politics". If people followed her philosophy, there would be conflicts with real-life.
She would never give Lib. that much credit. Lib. morality would not allow it to be the political expression of Obj.
That's my take anyway.
I referred to Libertarian morality, not Rand's morality. I fully understand her philosophy.
Rational self-interest IS the central point of her morality: "rational" is the key word - one acting for his own sake and welfare without any interference of others' rights.
Thanks