Propulsion system works -- Nobody knows why?
Posted by robgambrill 10 years, 3 months ago to Science
Well it turns out the Emdrive does produce thrust. The problem is that the engine appears to violate the principle of conservation of momentum.
So, it has been independently shown to work, but nobody knows exactly how it works. Some unknown quantum effect perhaps?
So, it has been independently shown to work, but nobody knows exactly how it works. Some unknown quantum effect perhaps?
EmDrive (also Relativity Drive) is a spacecraft propulsion system proposed by British aerospace engineer Roger J. Shawyer, who develops prototypes at Satellite Propulsion Research Ltd (SPR),[1] the company he created for that purpose in 2000.[2] New Scientist ran a cover story on EmDrive in its 8 September 2006 issue.[3] The device uses a magnetron producing microwaves directed inside a specially shaped, fully enclosed tapering high Q resonant cavity whose area is greater at one end, upon which radiation pressure would act differently due to a relativistic effect caused by the action of group velocity in different frames of reference. The inventor claims that the device generates a thrust even though no detectable energy leaves the device. If proven to work as claimed, the EmDrive could allow the design of spacecraft engines that would be electrically powered and would require no reaction mass. Such an engine would be a breakthrough in airflight and spaceflight.[4][5][6][7][8][9]
The device and its mode of operation are highly controversial. As of 2014, there are still arguments about whether the EmDrive is a genuinely new propulsion method, a misinterpretation of spurious effects mixed with mathematical errors, or a scam. The proposed theory immediately received virulent criticism because it seems to violate basic Newtonian laws of physics, notably conservation of momentum,[10][11] though the inventor insists on the contrary.[12] Chinese researchers from the Northwestern Polytechnic University (NWPU) in Xi'an first repeated the experiment in 2010,[7][13][14][15] then NASA in the Eagleworks Laboratories at the Johnson Space Center in 2014.[9][16]
Should the EmDrive produce a real thrust, various conjectures have been made to explain the underlying physics. Shawyer claims the thrust would be caused by radiation pressure imbalance due to group velocities of electromagnetic waves within the framework of special relativity. Dr. Yang from NWPU predicts a resulting net force using classical electromagnetism.[15] An alternative theory has been proposed in 2013 by Argentine physicist Fernando Minotti from CONICET, who explains the alleged forces on asymmetric electromagnetic resonant cavities by a particular class of scalar-tensor theory of the Brans–Dicke type.[17] Dr. Harold G. "Sonny" White, who investigates field propulsion at Eagleworks, NASA's Advanced Propulsion Physics Laboratory, notes that such resonant cavities may operate by creating a virtual plasma toroid that would realize net thrust using magnetohydrodynamics upon quantum vacuum fluctuations.[18] The named quantum vacuum based theories, however, can predict maximal efficiency of 3.33 nN/W, on the order of a millionth as much as EmDrive proponents claim.[citation needed]
"Impulse power only! Aye, capt'n!"
Jan
virtual mass, resulting in a translation of energy
received into energy projected. through a converter.
very fascinating, sir!!! -- j
I agree completely. The force is "not particularly strong" b/c c^2 is not particularly small. You have to have some source of E. So the rocket equation is still in effect, contrary to what the article implies.
If it hasn't been scaled up and replicated and proven, it's just Bad Science.
It is the same principle as the laser, which itself began as an o-maser (optical maser) from the microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation. (Their theory paper here: http://www.emdrive.com/theorypaper9-4.pd... )
As I said, this is interesting and has potential. What I found "baloney" was the hype from Mashable. "EmDrive Is an Engine That Breaks the Laws of Physics .... since it violates the law of the conservation of momentum. ..."
The NASA paper was also interesting in that it only underscored the initial claim that the engine works with the wavefronts at relativistic velocities.
"Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion
device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and
therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma. Future test
plans include independent verification and validation at other test facilities. -- http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.n...
"... not attributable to classical ... and therefore ... potentially ... quantum ...." I do note that the NASA test also produced an effect on the null test bed. Thus, they called it an "anomaly."
Anyhow, in a regular wave cavity the photons just travel in zig-zag paths. Remember the angle of incidence thing? I don't think the design has or requires the photons to bounce back and forth between the "reflectors" parallel to the line of thrust, like what happens in a laser or maser.
Also in a regular wave cavity, the photons just bounce around until they absorbed. They never escape. Even if they did, they wouldn't be going in any particular direction.
B.T.W, engineers use resonant cavities in things like tv transmitters, cell towers and radar where the power output would fry any semiconductor. But the ones they design all have uniform cross sections. Designing something that shape to resonate is really out in the weeds.
So, classical electromagnetic theory just predicts the thing will sit there and get warm.
Lastly, back to Rand and who does what in our society. It is up to the boys at S.P.R. ltd. to prove it works. It's their baby.
The Chinese say they tested the Idea and said they got it to work. That got the attention of the guys at NASA. They probably assigned their least favorite "Quentin Daniels" to go look at it and he found something he couldn't explain. Hopefully he volunteered, because I don't think that that would be a plum assignment (you could come out looking really foolish if you screw up). At least the guy says he needs to run more tests.
If they claim it "works" but they don't know how, then it simply doesn't work.
The scientists who founded modern science did so because they were, *gasp* Christians, and in their knowledge of the Creator, they knew that He was unchanging and utterly reliable. Therefore, they postulated that his creation may also be reliable and not based on the "whims of the gods" as was widely believed at the time.
Now, we have a whole new voodoo science called quantum physics, going back to the days where things are non-deterministic... it's stupid. I'll tell you something... God does not play dice. Einstein had it right to begin with on a lot of these things, and then just went off the deep end.
:)
That's why they're called 'theories'! That's what "science" is really about... creating 'theories' to try to explain and understand phenomena observed in the world around us.
If a theory proves, through experiment, observation and repetition to ACCURATELY describe and PREDICT some phenomenon, it becomes 'accepted' or even called a "Law."
If observation and attempted replication show that the 'theory' does NOT accurately and repeatedly predict, it's discarded or modified to see if it can fit what IS observed or predicted.
What 'theories of quantum physics are correct' today may be changed or rejected OR proven to be accurate in the future.
THAT'S what science does. To argue the veracity of a Theory is silly.
Many 'theories' have been modified or proven OR disproven as new information has been discovered and/or measurement techniques have improved over the centuries.
Please consider thinking about "theories" as 'today's explanation as best we know or understand it TODAY' and not as some cast-in-stone Truth Forever.
If the predictive value of a 'theory' is found to not be accurate, it's wide open to modification or rejection.
Einstein in 1927 argued for those rules of science. Bohr argued against them. He, being the bully that he was, along with Heisenberg, Pauli, and Dirac, shouted everyone else down until he got his way, and it became "the consensus". Schrodinger, Einstein, and deBroglie fought them, but ended up losing the fight.
And so here we are.
"Consensus" is what kept the Geocentric "Theory" alive for a lot longer than it deserved.
Einstein postulated a whole raft of Theories, some of which took many decades to be verified because 'instrumentation' couldn't even do experimental measurements accurately enough!
"Loose rules for outcomes"??? No! A theory describes the expected result from experiment and subsequent measurement. When the experimental results stabilize close to some 'final value' "Scientists" eventually decide that it might not be worth the time, effort or money to wring that extra few decimal points out of the answer. Actually, the folks funding their research have that influence. Pure research is a "forever goal."
In this case, these scientists modify their preconceptions and say "since we see this in the end, the beginning MUST be this way because that's what they must be to fit our theory"
The quote mentioned is from Jeremiah ...who had capricious patenting. God was reassuring him that nothing would change between their relationship.
Jesus operated in the realm of the sub-atomic. That is how water is turned to wine and food is multiplied.
Eventually we humans will find a way to do the same.
I think this is all very exciting.
Did you notice the spelling in The Book?
Let me see if I understand what you guys are saying about the source of the hype.
When the NASA guy says
"... is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon"
he probably would have been more correct to say something like
"..is producing a force who's mechanism is not clearly understood".
Maybe the guy is just trying to get his research grant renewed?
Still the idea of a propulsion system that does not expel mass sounds pretty cool. If you don't have to carry propellent and it does not require sunlight, it could be a way to send probes into interstellar space.
Some decades ago, a claim of an 'antigravity generator' was "demonstrated" using simple tools like an electric drill, some swinging weights and a bathroom scale.
Turns out, it didn't meet any claims. It seems that the only thing really discovered was that when a bathroom scale "weighs" something that's vibrating all over the place, it's nowhere near "accurate."
I'll wait for replication, thanks, but it's either a fraud OR there IS something 'doing it' that we don't understand YET.
I think it does expel energy, which means if you made a precise measurement it expels mass.