Hypothetical experiment

Posted by Wonky 11 years, 2 months ago to Philosophy
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I created this hypothetical experiment to help me sort out my friends on Facebook. The Facebook post reads:

"Take four young monkeys and put two of each into two cages. Place a banana dispenser which dispenses two bananas at the meager cost of a small electric shock into each of the two cages.

"In cage 1, there is no intervention whatsoever. In cage 2, each time the food dispenser is activated, the researcher enters the cage and takes one of the bananas from the monkey that activated the dispenser and gives it to the other monkey.

"Next, begin to amplify the shock until it is very close to lethal.

"In which cage do you suspect that one of the monkeys will kill the other (or the researcher) first?"


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  • Posted by Rocky_Road 11 years, 2 months ago
    The original premise is too vague to really make a prediction.

    I am assuming that the monkey that loses one banana, is experiencing Socialism. And that the "researcher" is the government.

    Then: the question is how long will the button pushing monkey tolerate giving up half of his earnings, for the sake of getting a banana?

    And...if he accepts the loss of half of his earnings until the shock increases, will he just get rid of his 'homeless' cage inhabitant, hoping to either get all of the reward, or less of the shock?

    Pointless...since it could very well be that the button pushing monkey is 'cool' with one of the bananas, and not give it any further thought.

    The "researcher" may not really have a role....
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    • Posted by 11 years, 2 months ago
      Excellent reasoning. Another flaw in the set up is that there is a distinct possibility that no monkey in either cage would kill the other.

      The premise that I want to test is, in fact, that involuntary socialism stunts both intellectual and emotional maturity, and as a result violence is more likely to erupt within the socialist cage.

      How would you alter the experiment if you wanted evidence for or against that premise?
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      • Posted by khalling 11 years, 2 months ago
        problems: cage 1. as the shock increases as well as hunger, the monkeys will begin to play a waiting game. the more clever monkey will wait until the other monkey is incapacitated by the electrical shock and eat the banana. If said monkey is into pain avoidance.
        In cage 2: the more dominant monkey(or both monkeys) will likely attack the researcher for the banana.
        also, I think cage 1 does not act as the best "control"
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 2 months ago
    I say both cases are the same.
    Case 1: The monkeys can buy a banana for the price of receiving a shock.
    Case 2: Monkey A can buy a banana for Monkey B at the price of Monkey A receiving a shock. This is a complication b/c each monkey wants a banana for himself, not the other one, but they are incapable of getting a banana on their own. So they develop a barter system in which they trade bananas for bananas b/c they both have the ability to produce something the other needs. This is a simplified version of an economy in which each participant has unique sets of things they can produce efficiently and want to consume.
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  • Posted by dave42 11 years, 2 months ago
    I'm assuming that the monkey who pushes the button gets both bananas (unless the researcher intervenes).

    As the problem is stated, it appears that the shock is delivered to both monkeys in the cage. Is this correct?

    Using the above assumptions, I would say cage 1. My reasoning is as follows.

    In cage 1, the button-pusher gets a shock and bananas. He has to make a tradeoff of 'are two bananas worth the shock?' The other monkey gets a shock at a random time, caused by the button-pusher. The button-pusher gets a small positive value (bananas-when-I-want-them - shock-at-chosen-time). The non-button-pusher gets a larger negative value (shock-at-an-arbitrary-time, with no bananas)

    In cage 2, once the monkeys get the hang of what the researcher is doing, the calculation on whether or not to press the button is 'is one banana worth the shock?' Here, the value formula for the other monkey isn't that different from the button pusher, but is definitely less and may be negative (banana-when-I-want-it - shock-at-chosen-time) vs (banana-at-an-arbitrary-time - shock-at-arbitrary-time)

    Changing the severity of the shock has much less of an impact on cage 2 versus cage 1.

    In the two scenarios, the non-button-pushing monkey is affected much more negatively in cage 1, and sees the other monkey as the source of his pain.
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    • Posted by dave42 11 years, 2 months ago
      If the shock is only given to the button-pusher, then my answer would be cage 2.

      In cage 1, each monkey will press the button when the value of the bananas exceeds the pain of the shock. The other monkey is unaffected.

      In cage 2, there will be a sort of reverse prisoner's dilemma (Can I outlast the other monkey, and thereby get a banana without a shock?) There is a strong disincentive to push the button, but the same benefit (a banana) is given to both so long as the button is pushed.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 2 months ago
    Unlikely one of the monkeys will try to kill the other.
    Most likely, the monkeys in one cage will starve to death (or the monkey from whom the banana is stolen) while cowering in fear in the corner.

    Doesn't matter if the dispenser runs out of bananas or not. Monkeys will react in fear to being shocked, and will associate the pain with the bananas.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 2 months ago
    Not going well. They're all talking about starving monkeys even though I never implied that the dispensers ever ran out of bananas... No one has even bothered with a straight 1 or 2 answer.
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