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Something new happened to me this week that has me perplexed.

Posted by edweaver 10 years, 4 months ago to Government
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This week I went to a bank with a substantial amount of cash that I have saved over the years to get a bank cashiers check to pay for a vehicle that I bought. This was not my personal bank but the business I own does all its banking there. My cash all checked out but the bank system would not process a draft for me without my social security number. While I freely gave it up, 2 days later I am questioning my wisdom in doing that. For the life of me I cannot help but believe it is for more government tracking and I am not impressed.


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    Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 4 months ago
    We have all become slaves to the State. Accept, fight, or shrug.
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    • Posted by Bobhummel 10 years, 4 months ago
      "Do you really think we want these laws observed? We want them broken. ... You fellows are pikers, but we know all the tricks and you'd better get wise to it. There is no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. ... you create a nation of lawbreakers - and you cash in on guilt. "

      Dr. Ferris
      Part two Either-Or Chapter III White Blackmail
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      • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 4 months ago
        Many decades ago I had a series of conversations with a refugee from the USSR. She told me that the government paid everyone three weeks pay for each month's work. They did this knowing that citizens would have to do something illegal in the fourth week in order to survive. They did so to inculcate a sense of guilt. How it pains me to see how the Marxists have resurrected the USSR right here in America.
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  • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
    Of course. There has been a law on the books since the early eighties. They reasoned it was part of the war on drugs(thugs paying cash for cars) but I think it was just to stick their nose in everybody’s bank account. Anytime you make a deposit of $3000 or more or pay cash for an item of a value of over three thousand dollars it gets reported to the IRS. It’s the law.

    At least that is my understanding.
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    • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 4 months ago
      Mimi, I knew about FINCEN's $10K limit, but this is the first I've heard of a $3K limit. I did some further reading and believe you've explained things absolutely right and I'm glad edweaver shared his experience because I had no idea this was going on. This comes down to different thresholds that trigger Suspicious Activity Reports versus Currency Transaction Reports.
      Best explanation I saw was here:
      http://www.city-data.com/forum/economics...
      See the comment by user Easybreezy.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
        I had no idea of this either and had I a chance at a do over I would have found another way. I shared so others may not be blindsided by it.
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        • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
          Don’t lose sleep over it. It’s just standard reporting and the IRS is as dysfunctional and overwhelmed as the VA. Your paperwork will probably be shredded by some IRS employee so they can keep his/her bonus.
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          • 11
            Posted by NealS 10 years, 4 months ago
            You say don’t worry about it, dysfunctional, overwhelmed? That’s probably exactly what they want you to think. Be very cautious, look at the trial and conviction of Dinesh D’Souza on an "insignificant" amount of $5000 campaign contribution, more of a technicality. I wonder who else was investigated, tried, and convicted for say a $10,000 contribution to a Democratic campaign? Or better yet, Eric Holder's order for the Federal Investigation by the Justice Department on an outhouse in a parade depicting "Obama's Presidential Library". Wow, someone expressing their total frustration with what we all know is going on, that sure deserves an investigation from the Feds. They should just take him out and hang him in public, huh, that would put a stop to it. They will attack anyone for anything, especially the little guy of no real significance, the guy that just happens to be against their agenda, or anyone they just don't like, and let the real criminals go free.

            What's more of a threat to this country, a United States Attorney General that will do absolutely nothing about a couple of thugs (that just happened to be Black) standing out in front of a polling place (on election day), dressed in black clothing (made to look something like the Gestapo), with batons (official enforcement tools, guns would have been too obvious), acting like they’re ready to beat someone (like a white man perhaps) to death; or an outhouse in a parade with an stupid expression on it by someone obviously totally frustrated with what this administration is doing today? I just wonder how they are monitoring Galt’s Gulch and how many of us will be investigated, tried, and prosecuted for not drinking the Kool-Aid and kissing their xxx. Dysfunctional, overwhelmed, not by a long shot, they’ve got us exactly where they want us, arguing and fighting about nonsense, trying to divert our minds from the important things. Would anyone do anything different to tear this country apart any faster?

            November this year will be the first indication of what the population of this country stands for. November 2016 will be our final exam as to if there is enough real patriotism left in this country. What’s good for this country, not just for me? I fought and killed in Vietnam for what I thought was patriotism in order to allow the Vietnamese to experience a little of the freedom and responsibility we had. Look how that turned out, it was our government that gave it all away. We had that war won, came home, and our government gave it all away for political reasons. All I got out of my participation was hiding my uniform in the back of the closet, about 40 years of continued freedom and some lifetime nightmares. Is this not what we have done to Iraq? Is this not the same thing that is happening again today, only now we are giving away our own country to the whims of others. Just look at history (you will have to find some older books, the new ones don’t have the same history in them), the English, the Russians, the Greeks, the Romans, almost all countries at one time had their own Empire that was the greatest thing on earth. What happened? What are we doing differently today?

            I tell all my friends to just stop arguing with the other side and devote all their efforts to educating the younger people, the ones that are more concerned today about earning a living and building families, than getting involved with politics. Most of them have no idea whatsoever as to what is happening in this greatest country. Ask them about Ben Gazi (Benghazi), NSA, CHDC (Coincidental Hard Drive Crashes), Dinesh D’Souza, or Lois Learner and you will see a lot of blank stares with their mouths open. Educate them, get them out to vote, and forget about the others that are drunk on the Kool-Aid.

            Thank you for the audience, I just need to vent every once in a while or I’ll totally explode. I would hope that most of you might come forward and help me out a bit if I should get arrested for treason or some other ridiculous charge because I still believe in our Constitution.

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            • Posted by $ pixelate 10 years, 4 months ago
              Thank you for so cogently stating my thoughts. They are collecting every bit of information on each of us so that it can be used against us in the manner of thwarting any individual's attempt to run for office / campaign against The System.
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            • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 4 months ago
              Neal, I was in Thailand fixing bufs and tanks and
              only saw our folks die -- in a buf crash at the north
              end of the U Tapao runway in the fall of '72 -- but
              my sister's husband was in Nam and has educated
              me.

              Thank You for your venting; I agree completely!

              I believe that we all pray -- or fervently hope --
              that we can save this nation without bloodshed.
              the current situation makes this seem tenuous,
              I know, but I just can't lose hope; the U.S. is too
              good to lose!!! -- John, retired usaf

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            • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
              Oh gosh, Neal..where to begin? First, thank-you for your service. Um...I think that everything you said is valid but I’m not running for office or speaking out in any big way. I’m hanging out on a website devoted to a movie franchise. I loved the movies. I’m interested in the political discourse. I’m not happy with what is happening with my country for many of the reasons you mentioned, but at this particular moment in time I was just trying to ease Ed’s mind so he didn’t waste any more time with ‘split milk’. Did you read the whole thread? I was trying to be friendly. I guess I’m fortunate enough that I’m not significant enough to merit attention from TPTB. I certainly didn’t mean to indicate it is a light load for everyone.
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              • Posted by NealS 10 years, 4 months ago
                Please take no offense to my comments. My only intent was to express that I now think this administration knows exactly what they are doing. We may think they are incompetent, and we hope that is the case, but what if it isn't?

                And, you are welcome, it's an experience I wouldn't trade for anything in this world.. It made me me.
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                • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 4 months ago
                  NealS - hang in there brother, we will win this one in this country and we'll get to enjoy a victory.

                  Too many have been willing to give up liberty for a a little temporary safety. Ben Franklin said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." The liberals who have twisted to emotions of the American voters to elect these liberal idiots do not like being fooled OR taken advantage of. These animals have done both and they have spent the wealth of their children's children to the point that our generation's generation will be slaves to their nations debtors for generations to come. They have tied the rights of individuals to the point that the question of which shall be slave to whom is yet to be decided but there is no question that Americas children will become the slaves of those who rule them.

                  But all this can be headed off, our nation can yet be saved and our children's freedom assured all depending of what happens in these next two elections. We shall win, we shall fight, and we shall win.
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                  • Posted by NealS 10 years, 4 months ago
                    Stargeezer, I cried reading your response and now I'm in full tears. Thank you.
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                    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 4 months ago
                      Last night I was in a lot of pain from my service connected injuries and I had taken a LOT of medication. Reading this today, I need to apologize for my poor sentence structure. While I certainly meant what I said, Bother I could have said it in a much more understandable and better way. :)

                      I hope the tears are from laughter at my ineptitude, sadness that our sacrifice is being wasted as it is by this administration, and joy that there is a light that we can see as we move to the end of this dark tunnel. Our days of tears, shed over all our losses will soon end.

                      Be well and take heart.
                      Larry
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                      • Posted by NealS 10 years, 4 months ago
                        My tears were strictly for feeling that someone else shared my belief that we might be able to save this country. They were strictly emotional. I never believed I'd ever let emotion ever bring me to tears but it does easily these days. I'm becoming a basket case. I almost wish I could go back, bear arms, and fight for this country again.
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                        • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 4 months ago
                          Neal, I share a hope that we may yet see this nightmare end without bloodshed. It may be a fruitless hope, but those of us who have seen the destruction that comes from a nation tearing itself apart cannot ever hope for that path to await us.

                          Is it beyond reason that we may fear that path lays in our future? No, sadly it's not, but we can hope to avoid it. Pray to avoid it. And yes, shed the tears that we avoid it.

                          For the lives of our children, we had best avoid it. Least an ancient curse befall us all - may the sins of the fathers be visited upon their children and their children's children, unto the third generation......We must avoid this price at all costs to ourselves Neal, and I believe we will.
                          Larry
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
                          I share your feeling but unfortunately not the optimism that the country will be saved without going through what the founders had to go through. Too many sheep being led by the wolves.
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                • Posted by RevJay4 10 years, 4 months ago
                  From one vet to another, welcome home and thank you for your service.
                  I agree with the thoughts expressed in both of your posts. I don't think this administration is incompetent and everything they do is totally planned. They may not expect the backlash they receive if it ever comes, but they have contingency plans to handle it. I still think Martial Law is on the table sometime in the next couple of years.
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                  • Posted by katrinam41 10 years, 4 months ago
                    RevJay4, I think you are right about martial law--and it won't be visible until it's too late. The midnight knock on the door, the vanishing, it's all been done before and I believe it will happen again--here. Thank you for your service, fellows and ladies--as mother, wife and daughter of vets, I am proud to know you all!
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            • Posted by $ Genez 10 years, 3 months ago
              My family who are all avid AS readers/fans was just discussing this the other day. The key is NOT to argue and fight with the other side at this point. It is to educate the next generation and as many around us as we can about what is really happening. Maybe if we can do enough of that before the next election, we can still have an impact... Otherwise, it sure looks like it's all going down the tubes soon..
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    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      So this goes hand in hand with the prediction I heard this morning that by the year 2025 the government will control everything we buy. That does not create optimism. :)
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    • Posted by $ Genez 10 years, 3 months ago
      Not sure if it's to IRS but it is reported to the Fed. Gov. in one form or another. Ran into this when my parents gave us money for property we purchased at one point. (That they then occupied part of the property... wasn't free handout, just the way we decided to purchase the land..)
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    • Posted by gtebbe 10 years, 4 months ago
      The opposite is also true; Withdraw more than $1,000 and they send a report off to the IRS. So we found another bank the doesn't play those games with our money.
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  • Posted by BradA 10 years, 4 months ago
    My bar business also does check cashing so I am intimately familiar with the requirements you are referring to. The short version is as follows.

    All of these rules are from the Feds Dept of the Treasury and apply to a 24 hour banking period. For total cash or equivalent transactions from $0 to $2,999, no information is required to be taken or kept on the customer although it is likely that a bank would have its own additional requirements. For those totaling $3K to $9,999, a valid ID and SSN must be taken and recorded and kept by the bank for at least 3 years. This information is not normally forwarded or reported to the DoT. For amounts over $10K, the previous information plus a few other pieces (eg. occupation) are required to be taken and sent to the DoT in the form of a CTR (Currency Transaction Report) within 15 days of the transaction. Banks are also required to report any transaction they consider to be suspicious to the DoT using a SAR (Suspicious Activity Report).

    All of this is fallout from Anti Money Laundering laws intended to allow the government to monitor for potential illegal (drugs, terrorism, etc) monetary activities.

    These are just the basic rules, no political commentary.
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    • Posted by kathywiso 10 years, 4 months ago
      That isn't all, when you withdraw the amount of $10,001., this is also reported to the DOT...so you've been saving for years and decide you want to purchase something from all that savings, THEY need to know...
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      • Posted by BradA 10 years, 4 months ago
        Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant by cash or equivalent transactions were both deposits and withdrawals.
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        • Posted by kathywiso 10 years, 4 months ago
          Owning a business, I knew that cash deposits were monitored, but in closing that account, I learned that withdrawal was also... My misunderstanding...shocking actually.
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          • Posted by BradA 10 years, 4 months ago
            If appropriate, you could have written a check or checks to a new account and then cashed out with a lower amount. Or taken out smaller amounts over a longer period. The reporting limits are only for transaction totals during a single business day.
            BTW, I'm not advising on avoidance, just clarifying the rules for those uncomfortable with government monitoring activities.
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            • Posted by kathywiso 10 years, 4 months ago
              Yes, I discovered that the day I left. I was leaving and had to close the account. It all worked out. Thanks for the clarification in case there are others planning to shrug anytime soon..
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    • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
      Thanks.@BradA I’m learning something new. I assumed any amount over 2,999 was reported to the IRS. I didn’t realize it was an internal report. The DoT not the IRS? Good to know.
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      • Posted by BradA 10 years, 4 months ago
        Glad to be of help. All of my reports (and presumably the bank's) go to the Dept of the Treasury, never the IRS. Can't say what they do with it, but theoretically it is only for criminal/terrorist tracking. Obviously banks report things like interest to the IRS, but that's a wholly separate issue.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 4 months ago
    I tried (unsuccessfully) for a while to get a NACA refi for my house. I had to write and sign individual explanations for each deposit in my bank account that was over $600 (that was not a payroll deposit). Yes, that is six-hundred dollars; yes, that is separate explanations for each deposit over $600. The explanation offered me was that this would prevent my accepting money from illegal sources.

    Jan
    (That attempt represented several days of my life I will not get back.)
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
      NACA or HARP?
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      • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 4 months ago
        NACA. I thought it was worth a shot.

        Jan
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
          Hmmm, never heard of that. Did a HARP refi myself late last fall.
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          • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 4 months ago
            NACA = Neighborhood Assistance Corporation of America. This is a voluntary coop that negotiates with mortgage companies and banks on behalf of homeowners for a reduction in the terms of a mortgage. If the finance provider can be convinced that by altering the terms of the mortgage they have a higher probability of getting payments throughout the course of the agreement, then can voluntarily offer a different deal to the homeowner. The incentive for them to do this is the high rate of foreclosures in the housing market - which is to the advantage of neither the bank nor the homeowner.

            NACA reminds one of Basic Training as they utilize a 'cattle call' method of processing thousands of homeowner refi attempts in a single day (or a pair of days, frequently).

            It was worth a shot, but it did not work for me.

            Jan
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  • Posted by radical 10 years, 4 months ago
    Nothing of this nature should surprise anyone knowledgeable of how governments operate. Apply what you have learned from Ayn Rand to all your future dealings. Good luck.
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  • Posted by wiggys 10 years, 4 months ago
    okay so you gave them your ss number. they probably had it anyway.

    I had a very interesting conversation with a banker not to long ago and was informed that a banker at a bank can not tell you a customer at the bank that they do not handle mortgages but who at the bank does unless they the banker has been registered through the bank with some certification that the bank pays $1000.00 to some government agency I think. I might be off by a little here but not by much. the point being that bankers are now and forever more shaking in their boots because of the many regulations that they have to operate under.
    I wonder what they government employees are going to do when all of these regulations are used against them as well. as I have said before it is not the rule makers but those tasked with applying them who are the ones you have to be careful of.
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  • Posted by BambiB 10 years, 4 months ago
    If it's more than $10,000 (IIRC), there's Federal law to track you. If it's LESS than $10,000, then they prosecute you for "structuring" - that is, depositing in a pattern intended to avoid reporting, and they steal everything.

    Welcome to the USSA.

    Check out this article: http://offgridsurvival.com/irsseizingban...
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    • Posted by katrinam41 10 years, 4 months ago
      Hi BambiB--I was thinking along the USSA line today and instead came up with this one: UPSA. It stands for The United Progressive State of America. I figure that one covers both sides of the aisle, as progressives exist on all sides--and they're all dangerous to liberty. And I do mean STATE rather than States... It makes me sick to my stomach to see how far we've gone down.
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  • Posted by robgambrill 10 years, 3 months ago
    You just had your transaction reported to the government (really, no kidding).

    There is a law that says all cash transactions over a certain amount have to be reported to regulatory agencies to crack down on money laundering. If your kid saves up too much in his piggy bank, and then puts it in a real bank, the government hears about it.
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  • Posted by Jaeraestern 10 years, 4 months ago
    Way to go, NealS. I'll help bail you out. It's getting scary to speak up anymore. I don't believe people in this country understand the difference between liberty and tyranny anymore. We are getting closer to tyranny daily with our current federal leaders.
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  • Posted by DaveM49 10 years, 4 months ago
    I believe that any cash transaction of over $3000 (?) has to be reported to the IRS. They have some sort of a form that requires ID. I have gotten around it in the past by going to several places that offer money orders and getting as much as I could from each without filling out the form. A little work and some small fees, but my privacy remained intact.
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  • Posted by IIGeo2 10 years, 4 months ago
    10K is the amount that needs to be declared when crossing international borders, some countries its per person the US its per traveling group. I learned about this when applying for my last home loan they asked me explain moving money from my account to my wife's account which I also have my name on? I think 10k is to low and really 3k? That's it barely a weekend bender in Las Vegas. Its big brother for sure 1984
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  • Posted by tkstone 10 years, 4 months ago
    My wife works as a teller and the restrictions on cash transactions would surprise you. Even car dealers can not accept cash over $10,000 without the appropriate paperwork. I guess they can search our financial life without a warrant!?
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    • Posted by Danno 10 years, 4 months ago
      I paid for my last new car with a check. This dealer was like a 70's dealer where cash spoke.
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      • Posted by $ Mimi 10 years, 4 months ago
        Lucky, you. I paid in full for a new car last christmas and must have spent an extra two hours to complete the process because the dealership was trying to avoid the transaction. First, a bunch of them went into a little office for twenty minutes with their heads together, then they put me into a room with their finance guy who tried his damnedest to talk me into financing the car. It was an uncomfortable hour in an over-heated small office. I was almost walked out on the whole deal. Just take my money and give me my car!
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        • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 4 months ago
          The reason is very well known to anybody who's ever worked in that field - the car dealership makes a percentage from your loan if you finance with "their" chosen bank or banks. Depending on the price of the vehicle this can be thousands of dollars.

          In areas with a more senior population the salesmen get a spiff if they keep a geezer from paying cash (or check) for a new truck. My truck was about $69k and I used this knowledge to get the price down more. I told them that the only way I'd finance it was if they lowered the price by the amount they would make if I financed it (4% is what I was told by a friend in the business) and I accepted a % reduction, paid no fees for financing (this is another "catch" that they add in $150 to "handle" the financing. Since I didn't want to finance, I sure wasn't going to pay for it too.

          In the end I paid no fees, got a 3% reduction in my price, and had a 3% loan without a prepayment penalty that I paid off in 1 week. The dealership got a extra 1% from the bank, I saved 3% and they "gave" me 3 oil changes that cost $120 in a diesel truck. Everybody made out ok except the bank, oh well.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
          I think I would have.

          My father in law has bought his last two cars in cash and he never said he had trouble like that. Most of the dealerships around here will give you better prices if you pay cash because they don't have to worry about a repo and non-payment.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 3 months ago
    Were you already a customer of the bank? I suspect they're ostensibly using it to catch terrorists, but the primary reason is to catch tax evaders. I would just pay for the vehicle with the cash to avoid the issue.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 10 years, 4 months ago
    Cash transactions over a certain amount (10,000.00 I believe) are considered suspicious. I think they used your social security number to report to the IRS.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 4 months ago
    The banks that I do business with has all that info on me. Including my SS no. and a rather bad pic of me taken from my drivers license. There was a time when you could be confident that the data was confidential. Alas, no longer true. One more of the many signs of the fall of the American experiment. The dream that is fast becoming a nightmare.
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  • Posted by bobsprinkle 10 years, 4 months ago
    I also thought the threshold was $10k. But, whatever it is, it could be considered as income by the goobermint. And, you could be taxed on it as income.
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