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Once you argue that carbon emission bans and healthcare for all are somehow other necessary tenets of civilization you have exposed yourself as just another "believer", only to be distinguished from religious believers by the economic consequences of the rules you want to institute from your beliefs, versus the relatively minor social rules they want.
Now to clarify what religion is to me, its not the same thing to everyone so without that clarification a study such as this is flawed at best.
First off the second definition for religion from Dictionary.com.
Religion: A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
By this definition a person who believes their to be no god, but believes in the power of science and that man can one day understand everything about how the worlds works has a religion.
Religion is a set of moral values by which a person lives there lives and people with the same moral values gathering together to practice them. This site represents a form of religion.
Many here may disagree with me and that is OK. But if you take away some core of moral value, some idea of right and wrong from society there is no society left. Without shared moral values you cannot have a cohesive society. With a shared moral value system you have some form of religion. Some are more loose than others, but it is there.
Our founders wrote letters to each other refering to the religion of America Benjamin Franklin desribed it with these words "I believe in one god, the creator of the universe. THe the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its contact in this. These I take to be the fundamental point in all sound religion." - Letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale university
At the time the 5 points he suggests here to points every sect in America agreed upon. Today it would be said differently as not everyone would agree upon the supreme creator.
However the basic morals outlined by Franklin are 100% valid for America or any society to practice or we will fail. That use to come from organized god centered religion, or so people think. It is my view that the moral code must ultimately come from within each of us, and religion helped that to occur but ultimately people made the choice to have a moral code and follow it. Without that code a society will fail. Franklin outlined it well.
I don't know that such is true. I DO know that religion is frequently used to perpetrate the most heinous of crimes. Spend a month in an Iron Maiden if you don't believe me.
A gun accomplishes much good in the world when used correctly by mind intent on doing good. Religion is no different.
A core common value system is required for a society to be moral. Religion has been the source of that core common value system. I know of no replacement for it.
To say that religion is used for evil is like saying political science is used for evil or a large corporation is used for evil. All of the above have done great good and great evil and great good.
To blame the heinous crime on the religion is foolish. Its irrational and destructive. Is its religion fault that men used it to cease power and oppress people?
Were now using science and technology to do the same. In less obvious or barbaric ways no real difference. You have no privacy, there is very little respect of personal choice or property. Every thing you say, do and every place you go recorded to be used against you if the powers that be want to do so. Its just using science to accomplish the same thing.
There will always be those that want to build a society that allows them to use force to stay at the top of that society. Reguardless of the age and what weapon is available (psychology, philosophy, science, religion or politics) they will be used for freedom, property rights protection, liberty and the protection of life and the opposite. This has always been the case because some men choose to make it so (on both sides). The tools of the centuries change but the two sides remain the same.
Without something that clearly defines what behaviors are desirable, praise worthy and to be sought after you have people seeking after nothing specifically. Religion provides to the masses a definition of what is desirable, praise worthy and to be sought after. So long as it leaves people with the choice to act on it of there own mind, it will be good to have around.
What would you say if there was a lie - a flat-out lie - that if told to the people of the world would make them 5% happier? Would you say, "The end justifies the means" and perpetrate the lie? Or would you say, "Dishonesty is immoral" and work to undermine it?
Try these lies as test cases:
1) Government loves you and only has your best interests at heart.
2) God loves you and has only your best interests at heart.
Report found:
"clear majorities in all highly developed countries do not think belief in god to be necessary for morality, with one exception only: the USA."
So if we use GDP per capita as a measure of development, the US is the highest-developed country in the study. Is this because capitalism combined with at least 50% "belief in god" creates a situation for success, or are we successful despite those 50%?
In the first case the religious in America may act as a check on the GDP, keeping it at a stable (and high) point. In the second case, the economy thrives despite the correlation between GDP and religious belief. Thus America succeeds while dragging along the believes, as Rearden (early on) supports the moochers because he feels it's easy for him to do so.
"Religion is bunk" and "...faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
"Only 15 percent of the French population answered in the affirmative. Spain: 19 percent. Australia: 23 percent. Britain: 20 percent. Italy: 27 percent. Canada: 31 percent. Germany 33 percent. Israel: 37 percent."
All of these countries are Socialist. Socialism is a Religion. Morality is dictated by the State. The deeper the penetration into the society, the lower the percentage of people believing in a god/morality connection. France is arguably the most Socialist in Europe and has the lowest percentage. I'm willing to bet that same question asked in America 50 years ago would have been answered in the affirmative by 80% or higher.
I agree with the proposition that belief in nonsense can be harmful. There is a hopeful sort of development in recent times where religious people can put such ideas into a compartment in life and function as rational except for a set of harmless rituals.
I'm sure there are thousands of examples of psychological coercion in religion. By contrast, who has to be coerced to believe truth?
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/03/13/worl...
and if you goto page 2
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/03/13/worl...
you can read their research methods.
The discussion here so far exemplifies why facts do not matter. People tend to credit "experts" who agree with them and discredit those who do not, regardless of the facts presented. The test case was two sets of three artificially constructed university professors - same backgrounds, same level of work - but with essays slanted left and right. Conservatives and liberals both dismissed the credentials of the experts they disagreed with and touted the ponies they already bet on. (See here in the Gulch, "Why Evidence is Not Enough." http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/1b...
As a criminologist, I noted this: "... atheists are thoroughly underrepresented in the places where rapists, thieves and murderers invariably end up: prisons. While atheists make upward of 15 percent of the U.S. population, they only make up 0.2 percent of the prison population." That was author Werleman's editorial insertion, not a conclusion from Pew. That being true, it remains also that many in prison find in religion the structure that their earlier lives lacked, which put them in prison in the first place.
Based on your logic about atheist being under represented in the prison population we can also conclude that atheist are better criminals and avoid being caught.
If you as a criminologist, if you were to make a thorough intellectually honest study of convicted criminals you might find that very few are in fact belivers in any religion especially christianity. They will of course claim to be quiorboys, one and all when standing before a judge.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Mark Marotta said something similar to what you said--- maybe they find religion after they're caught. He just suggested a different possible reason. But you're both saying maybe people claim to find religion AFTER they're caught committing a crime.
I must disagree, those that truly understand christianity will recognize that all men and women have free agency to make their own decisions but are guided by the 10 Commandments and the moral values that religion instills in us.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Re: Your comment to livefreely.
I too consider this as a conservative website because Ayn Rand's philosophy is about the individual providing for himself and in the process being creative with their lives. It is liberalism that leads to fascism. True conservatism leads to economic and personal freedoms.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Those who participate in this site are more conservative and libertarian because those are traits that those who support the movies value and to which they adhere. There are also many O's here, but it seems they are not the majority (even though every new one seemingly gets on the site and starts screaming about why non-O thoughts are being discussed - most of them don't last here long).
I appreciate your comment, and agree that libertarian thought (with conservatism being the first step) is required to turn this nation back around to the greatness that it once was.
I beg to differ since objectivism could not exist if conservatism, meaning freedom did not exist. How long would objectivism survive under liberal progressivism? How objectivist do you think work in the White House?
Fred speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
What does this have to do with 53% of Americans thinking that morality requires belief in God? He doesn't come right out and say it, but I have to conclude he's saying the Democrat party is filled with atheists.
Great post, Maph. I needed a good chuckle and you came through.
Do we Americans really believe that "it is necessary to believe in God in order to be a moral person?" How ignorant!
There is a peculiar difference between the work ethic of those of us in the upper Midwest vs. the overwhelming work ethic of the folks in the South. It is comparable to the difference between Germans and Greeks. In a colder climate you have very little time to store up the fruits of your labors (farming) in order to prepare for winter. In the south, much like in Greece and Italy, the attitude toward work is "tomorrow is another day and the work will still be here then". Because of the long growing season and the heat of summer there is a tendency to "take it easy" and rightfully so. Heat stroke comes easily with overexertion.
The "fact" that the South is "religious" has nothing to do with lack of wealth ... it has to do with their work ethic. Sometimes fishing is just more important than working.
Of course when I tell an Atheist he is a proponent of a secular form of religion, a blown emotional gasket is quick to follow. Religion is a belief system with no factual foundation, so those on both sides of the question of the existence of a supernatural deity are followers. Only Agnostics are truly areligious, and those few I've met usually don't care if their religious associates practice their favorite rituals. I've never heard of an Agnostic behind any of the lawsuits aimed at suppressing religious practices, whereas Atheists almost always are.
I'm a Deist, based on personal experience. I have little tolerance for most organized religions, but so long as they don't impede my life practices the practitioners of those religions should be free to believe as they choose.
Many atheists assume believers are not worth listening to either.
Both sides do it.
Atheists in my experience tend to be far more "prickly" over their "beliefs" than people of faith tend to be.
You mileage may vary.
I put "beliefs" in quotes above because I can not think of a word that better applies.
However, I've had lots of discussions with folks who start off with, "I'm a Christian, but....."
I'm afraid you are projecting what you believe to be true upon people of faith. While I don't doubt that there are Christians who believe as you suggest, most Christians while disagreeing with the choice that atheists have made, would not immediately dismiss their opinions on other matters.
Fred Speckmann
commonsenseforamericans@yahoo.com
Ethical and moral principles do not require sectarian enforcement. Positing an invisible bigger chief than the earthly rulers was just a clever ruse to make people obey (for their own good, of course).
Thoughts on "proof": does the fact that there is no incontrovertible proof of the existence of higher beings constitute proof that He/She/They do not exist? The dustbin of history is filled with "proof" of this and that where later discovery and illumination has rendered those proofs false.
My choice of wording "I choose to believe" is based on my informed, voluntary choice to believe the scientific evidence. There is much proof derived from studies of anthropology that the evolution of ethical behaviors in primitive societies around the world was based on THEIR belief in higher beings. The fact that YOU choose not to believe has no bearing on THEIR belief systems and the social behaviors that evolved from that belief.
I wonder what CJ Werleman would say, if he were asked whether rejecting belief in God is essential to morality. Judging by the articles he writes (http://www.salon.com/writer/cj_werleman/...). I'd guess that he regards belief in God as fundamentally immoral.
As to the source of happiness, there are going to be lots of opinions...
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