Any Democrat Objectivists?

Posted by unitedlc 7 years, 12 months ago to Politics
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Is it possible for a strict Objectivist to truly be a Democrat? In my opinion it would be difficult for an Objectivist to be a staunch Republican, but to be a Democrat seems impossible. Libertarian seems to me to fit with the philosophy the best. I do understand that Objectivism deals with rational pursuit of self interest, so being a Democrat could be construed as pursuing self interest; but it is also my understanding that it must not be at the forced expense of others' liberty or property. Thoughts?


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  • Posted by mminnick 7 years, 12 months ago
    Pick your definition of Democrat. If you are talking about the current group of Democrats, then the answer is NO. going back to the Truman type Democrat, perhaps. Going back to the founding of the Democrat part. YES.
    Todays Democrat would not be at home in the Truman era part of any other except the FDR time period.
    The Democrat party should change its name to the Progressive-Liberal party. Call itself what it really is. Most of its current members do so in private.
    Applying the standards set form in "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas shrugged", the current democrats are not and never will be objectivists. Even the best of them and there are a few decent Dems, are not Creators but Looters. They want to take from those who create and give to those who won't or can't create. (There are very few of the latter, most can create, but just want it given to them on a platter/.)
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    • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
      Support of slavery was only one big problem with the Democrats from the beginning. Andrew Jackson was a populist collectivist. The Democrats have become worse in their collectivism-statism over time (and so have the 'me too but slower' Republicans), culminating in the rise of the New Left now entrenched in the party and its leadership, but the likes of Truman were not compatible with Ayn Rand's ideas. Truman was not an overt ideological collectivist and anti-American like we see today in the Democratic Party, but he did support fascistic measures like wage and price controls, which he tried to continue after WWII, and socialized medicine.
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    • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 12 months ago
      As much as today's Democrats like to laud the "Camelot" days of President Kennedy, if good ol' Jack showed up today, they'd curse him as a right wing fanatic.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 12 months ago
        Very true. Kennedy may have been more of a social liberal, but he was much more fiscally conservative than even many current day Republicans. Remember his quote that "A rising tide lifts all boats" was his deference to laissez faire capitalism.
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    • Posted by strugatsky 7 years, 12 months ago
      The Party in question uses the word "Democrat" on purpose to confuse people's perception of itself. It is a well known tactic - The Democratic Republic of North Korea, the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics, the Democratic Republic of Germany and on and on. The fundamental philosophy that governs the Party and its leadership is socialist / collectivism. All other labels, which they change regularly, are a masquerade.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
      While the originally founded Jackson Democrats did follow a lot of conservative views, it was still the party that supported slavery. Slavery is, in my mind, the most negatively correlated issue to Objectivism. The Democrats have always supported slavery in some way or another. Whether it was the original forced immigrant labor or todays forced welfare financing from creators, it has always been the "way of the democrat".
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      • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
        Being "conservative" is not the criterion. Ayn Rand was not a conservative.
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        • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
          Agreed, I used the term "conservative" incorrectly. I meant to say "non modern socialist" views. If forced to pick by gun to her head, I believe Rand would have chosen Libertarian of any of the modern political affiliations in America. Not perfect, but very close to inline with Objectivism. I am not talking about Gary Johnson, I am talking about real Libertarianism.
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          • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
            Ayn Rand rejected making choices "with a gun to her head". Force and ideas are opposites. Her view was that if threatened with force she would say whatever was demanded, with every honest person knowing that it would have no cognitive meaning and no connection with her thought.

            It's important to not equate Ayn Rand with conservatism, especially not using terms loosely here on this forum where so many confuse Ayn Rand as an endorsement and affirmation of the conservative views they started with.

            Ayn Rand denounced the Libertarian Party as contradictory to her ideas in both content and means. It is not "in line" with Objectivism. She denounced it for half contradicting and half plagiarizing her political philosophy and for ignoring the intellectual changes in thinking that are required before there can be fundamental political reform. It is no better today, as you can see from the half-baked, pandering LP platform. The disastrous Gary Johnson and Bill Weld were only the latest consequences of 40 years of LP intellectual and political failure.
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            • Posted by $ CBJ 7 years, 12 months ago
              Re: “The disastrous Gary Johnson and Bill Weld were only the latest consequences of 40 years of LP intellectual and political failure.” Some disaster. The LP received 3.4% of the vote, three times its highest previous total, in the midst of the most hotly contested election in our lifetimes. And LP members won dozens of down-ballot elections by promoting individual freedom and giving voters a true choice. The LP received the endorsements of six major newspapers and many smaller ones. The LP emphasized many more issues than recreational drugs, reaching (and convincing) many more voters than it has ever done in the past. The drug issue itself has gone mainstream, and judging by the results of the November election we are winning that battle. While not perfect, the intellectual consistency of the Libertarian Party is light-years ahead of that of the “major” parties. By any objective measurement, 2016 was a breakthrough year for the Libertarian Party, and rehashing 40-year-old arguments by Ayn Rand does not change that fact.
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            • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
              First, you win. You have intellectually tripped me at the starting line. You, my friend, have helped me clarify some of my own thoughts.

              Rand would want nothing to do with any of our current political parties. The voices of the Libertarian party today are not what the party is supposed to represent, I guess just as the voices of our government today are not what the country is supposed to represent. I would like to know though, how does Libertarianism contradict Objectivism? I don't mean idiot individuals who claim to be Libertarian, but the actual Libertarian ideals.
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              • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
                "Supposed to represent" to whom? The Libertarian Party was hopelessly at odds with Objectivism at his founding, for the reasons Ayn Rand gave. It's a mistake to ascribe to it what you would like it to be just because it uses "freedom" language. People have been mistakenly attracted to it since the beginning for that reason, but it's a mirage. Others are of course attracted to it because the various strains of anti-intellectualism or 'hippies of the right' mentality is what they want.
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                • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
                  Our ideas of what the Libertarian party are supposed to represent must be way off. With your comments, I assume you may be focusing on some of the more recent pro-drug movement within the party. That is an unfortunate situation where the media has tried to push the drug leniency portion of the Libertarian party as if it is a core issue. The core "philosophy" if you will, of the party is to let me do whatever I want if it does not take away any of your property or rights, and I will let you do whatever you want if it doesn't take anything from me. That's the premise. That premise does fall in line with Objectivism.

                  My big curiosity about you now is that you seem very anti-Libertarian and Republican. If you vote, and don't vote for those types of candidates, then that would leave you with either the Green Party or Democrat. You may just be playing devil's advocate with your "let's leave politics out of Objectivism" stance, but I truly am fascinated by the idea that someone may vote very left of center and adhere to Objectivist philosophy at the same time. Obviously, you may not vote, and it is none of business besides, however I am just very curious. ;)
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                  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
                    The emphasis on drugs in the Libertarian Party has been there from the beginning. It's part of the anti-philosophical, hedonistic 'hippies of the right' mentality that Ayn Rand denounced them for. The media didn't do that to them, they did it themselves. If you watched some of their own discussions on John Stossel's show over the last year you saw their own emphasis.

                    More fundamentally, even when talking about better emphases in politics they have never shown any grasp of the necessity to change the dominant ideas in a culture in order to effect change in the political direction. It isn't enough to appeal to "freedom" or "do what you want as long as you don't take from me". Political freedom is not a primary. As Ayn Rand put it in her article "Don't Let it Go":

                    "We cannot fight against collectivism, unless we fight against its moral base: altruism. We cannot fight against altruism, unless we fight against its epistemological base: irrationalism. We cannot fight against anything, unless we fight for something—and what we must fight for is the supremacy of reason, and a view of man as a rational being."
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                    • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 12 months ago
                      " emphasis on drugs in the Libertarian Party"
                      Mainstream public policy for the past 100 years emphasizes drugs. LP wants to de-emphasize drugs.
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                      • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
                        The Libertarian Party emphasizes the issue of drugs beyond all proportion. They can't stop talking about it to the exclusion of all the things that matter to people.
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                        • Posted by ycandrea 7 years, 12 months ago
                          In my opinion, the drug issue encompasses an adult's right to do what he wants as long as he does not injure, force or harm anyone else. The same with prostitution between two consenting adults. Are these rational choices, I don't think so, but the gov't should not decide morality.
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                  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
                    Registering in a political party, let alone becoming a "staunch" party member, isn't the same as voting. An election isn't a philosophical, personal, or policy endorsement; it's simply a limited choice of which of the (usually) two candidates will be in power. If one of them is relatively pro freedom compared to the other or if you think it makes a difference for what you have to live with, then vote accordingly. That's not an endorsement of the false alternative you are presented with. Ayn Rand, for example, urged people to vote for Nixon, even though she did not approve of him or the trends in the Republican Party, in order to keep McGovern out because his overt collectivist premises and agenda were so much worse. She called it "anti-Nixonites for Nixon".
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              • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 12 months ago
                Just be sure to not substitute the ideas of Rand for objective reality--they are part of objective reality since they were from a real person but are just a small part of it. Objectivism should not become "Rand is what objective reality is so no more thought is necessary!" It would then become a matter of religion or cultism with all kinds of shaming for the evil of not accepting the ideas as true by faith. That has happened in the past with Objectivism. The philosophy is excellent but not as dogma.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 7 years, 12 months ago
      There are not just "Creators and Looters". Some people never have a creative idea in their lifetimes but just do work for others for a wage or are cared for by others or are born into wealth. They need not be looters or even pretend to have an explicit philosophy to maybe shame them into exorcising some form of creativity. Does one need to actually loot in order to be a 'Looter' or is it just that one has not created something?
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 7 years, 12 months ago
      The founding demoncrap? you mean Jackson? he started all the bullcrap here in America.
      Most if not All demoncraps looooooooove Unions which is a marxist idea...not very objective.

      You probably meant the Idea? We observe "objectively"...epic fail...every time.

      Just the fact that they touted themselves for the "little guy"...shows me, they thought themselves Bigger, Better...when in fact, they are gutter trash and couldn't hold a candle to the "Little Guy".
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 12 months ago
    Dr. Leonard Peikoff of the Ayn Rand Institute endorsed Hillary Clinton in 2016. It was not the first time that he endorsed the Democrat candidate for President of the United States.

    "Capitalist Pig" hedge fund manager and blogger Jonathan Hoenig endorsed Hillary Clinton: http://capitalistpig.com/news-media/n...
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    • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 12 months ago
      Dr Peikoff's endorsement of the lying corrupt treasonous Clinton is nothing for him to be proud of.The capitalist pigs endorsement of Clinton over Trump because she would continue The Bush, Obama destruction of USA and Capitalism .He then assumes The public would see the light and understand socialism and statist policies don't work. That is like killing the patient to prove he needs a different type of treatment.
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 7 years, 12 months ago
        It is not the only time that Dr. Peikoff endorsed a Democrat for President. It was just the easiest to find. I might agree with your assessment, but the question is whether or not an Objectivist can be a Democrat. Dr. Peikoff (also Yaron Brook) is not a Democrat in the sense that he pays dues to the party, but his public statements are neither more nor less support than the millions of other Democrats who do not actually pay dues to the party. And if anyone is an Objectivist, it is him.
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        • Posted by Temlakos 7 years, 12 months ago
          Then Dr. Peikoff betrayed all his Objectivist principles with that endorsement.

          She is a criminal. The Clinton Foundation is a Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization within the meaning of the Act that takes its name from that term. This goes beyond her being "much dispos'd to have an itching palm, to sell and mart her offices for gold to undeservers." This goes to shaking down the world's "leaders" for bribes. She is Cuffy Meigs as female.
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          • Posted by $ allosaur 7 years, 12 months ago
            Any dinosaur for a halfway straight thinker could not endorse such an evil hag based on Clinton's combined corrupt history (and suspicious body count) even if there never was a Clinton Foundation.
            Me dino prefers to call that institution the Clinton Crime Cartel, having read it is a front for other activities than the mere 6% that allegedly goes to charitable causes. Maybe Haiti got 6% of the money the Clintons raised to help out with their earthquake, but I also read the Haitians hate the Clintons whether they received 6% of the promised disaster aid or just plain nada.
            Fortunately, that "charity" failed to help elect the most corrupt president ever that money could bribe. And how could Dr. Peikoff overlook even that glaring for an obvious bit?
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        • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
          I fully understand how Dr. Peikoff would not endorse Trump or other Republicans and Libertarians at times, but vocally endorsing Hillary Clinton leads me to believe the good doctor should have nothing to do with the Ayn Rand Institute. "The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me." - Ayn Rand (yes, I know, there is question that this exact quote may be paraphrased). Trump will do nothing to stop me, Hillary will do everything she can to stop me. This would have been a good year to at least abstain from an endorsement.
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        • Posted by Watcher55 7 years, 12 months ago
          There is a huge difference between endorsing a particular Democrat candidate in the context of the competition and endorsing anything else about them.
          I also think it was a mistake to endorse her; but it was a tough judgement call whether to endorse one of two ghastly candidates, or nobody, or what appears to be a wishy-washy Libertarian.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 12 months ago
    What is a "strict" Objectivist? Either it's Objectivism or it isn't. Objectivism is a philosophy, not a political position or political party. It is incompatible with any kind of statism, anarchism, or anti-philosophical anti-intellectualism. None of the Republican, Democrat, or Libertarian parties "fit" with Ayn Rand's ideas. You may or may not find particular positions in any group which are acceptable, but joining a political party to be a "true" or "staunch" party member is not.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
      A strict objectivist would be a person who practices and utilizes the principles of objectivism in all of their actions. I agree that political affiliation is a very different thing than philosophy, however if a person decides to brand themselves with a political affiliation then it can often reveal many philosophical ideals a person holds dear. I happen to be a registered independent for that very reason. I do not subscribe to one specific political affiliation, because none of them fit my own rational pursuit of self interest perfectly. Democrats want to take and tell you what you have to do, and Republicans want to tell you what you can't do. Libertarian is the closest, since it's basic tenant is to live and let live.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 7 years, 12 months ago
    Haha...joining the Dem party for self interest(?) I see your twist there. I remember thinking about this when I was fairly new to Objectivism. Why can't I just do whatever is good for me if I know it harms the herd? The key word is "reasonable" self interest, though.

    Interesting question, Unitedic... And, I do happen to know an old-school Dem who is just a hair away from being an Objectivist. His views (he's also old-school Catholic) on altruism don't match mine. But, he's damn close.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
      There are a few BlueDogs out there that fit some of the bill for sure. They just can't get away from that desire for bringing people down to make the low feel higher... even if sometimes it is themselves that they are bringing down.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 7 years, 12 months ago
    I doubt it; but that doesn't mean that an Objectiv-
    ist couldn't sometimes vote Democratic. I believe
    I heard Ayn Rand on tape once campaigning for
    Daniel Patrick Moynihan against Buckley.
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  • Posted by term2 7 years, 12 months ago
    The short answer. NO. People who supported Hillary might as well wear an X on their backs in my opinion. I want nothing to do with them.
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  • Posted by bsmith51 7 years, 12 months ago
    A political party is an organization of people who gather around periodically to decide what they agree on, this time around.
    By definition, no true practicing Objectivist could be a member of such a group.
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  • Posted by chad 7 years, 12 months ago
    Democrat and Republican are two sides of the same coin, they will drive the country to socialism albeit with different lies to get the country there. I don't think there is a party to which an objectivist could belong when it comes to a democracy as opposed to a constitutional republic.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 7 years, 12 months ago
    Ayn Rand spent much time in differentiating "self interest" and "rational self interest." The "self interest" that you mention, as used by the Democrats (socialists) and, to be fair, not limited to them, is an instant gratification, "I want it now" adolescent self interest that has nothing in common with Objectivism. It is no different than calling a thief an Objectivist because he acted in his self interest.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 7 years, 12 months ago
    I have disliked Peikoff ever since I met him in one of the educational seminars. My reasons are only semi-rational. At that time (Possibly now?) he was a smoker and blew smoke in my face. Granted it was unintentional, and I still followed the precepts of his brilliant mind. However, over the years, I found him to be too rigid and concretized for my tastes. And as far as his birds-of-a-feather Hoenig, is concerned they think that giving the patient a diseas will cure him the next time. If he lives, that is.
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  • Posted by PiPhD 7 years, 12 months ago
    FORGET about the concept of Democrats & Republicans! THERE IS NO SUCH THING ANYMORE! You CAN'T "generalize" Objectivism into a Left or a Right paradigm! For example, Trump is ANTI-ENVIRONMENT due to his PRO-CORPORATOCRACY which can ONLY lead to an ANTI-HUMAN result! ! !
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  • Posted by tdechaine 7 years, 12 months ago
    You can't accurately label someone by his party affiliation. E.g. being liberal on social issues makes you just as much Dem. as being conservative on economics makes you Rep. One may also choose a party for general voting.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 12 months ago
    I think Democrats are solidly better than Republicans when it comes to the Objectivist idea you mention: Allowing people to pursue their self-interest as long as it's "not at the forced expense of others' liberty or property."

    I agree completely Libertarian fits with the philosophy best. I am Libertarian when supporting them will not inadvertently help the Republicans.

    Certainly not all Democrats or Republicans are alike. Supporting Democrats means abiding handout-seekers, and supporting Republicans means abiding redneck idiots.
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    • Posted by Dobrien 7 years, 12 months ago
      Your hypocritical name calling ,labeling and prejudice against republicans with opposing views all the while forcing "inclusion and diversity" on everyone is telling. You would have all of us sacrifice our safety and security by opening up our border to Middle East refugees or anyone who pretends to be. You are ready to stifle any free speech that is critical of Man made climate change because you know that scrutiny Will expose the false premise. US citizens individuals ethical self interest should be what is promoted and supported by our govt. .The individual is the greatest minority , anyone who says they are supporters of minority's and would sacrifice the individual are frauds.
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    • Posted by 7 years, 12 months ago
      I am the other direction on feeling that the only thing worse than a republican is a democrat.... Handout seekers as a group are actually doing harm to individuals. "Redneck idiots" do no harm as a group other than perhaps hurt people's feelings.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 12 months ago
        They're forms of the same thing. They both want to blame their own problems caused by their own actions or random chance on others and hurt other people.

        Rednecks/handout-seekers is not a fixed trait. Maybe most people at some point experience this feeling of their problems' being caused by some other group and wanting to hurt members of the other group. It's a nasty human foible.

        Figuring out which form of this behavior is worse is to fall into their trick.
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