Founders On Immigration
I am re-posting this article in light of Castro kicking the bucket. and I had a few thoughts. When conversing with many Conservatives, I find that they are welcoming to those Cubans, who under great risk, flee the country for Florida. and in that light I wanted to make a few comments to this article.
1. Michelle Malkin was born just a few weeks after her parents came to the US. They were sponsored by a company. However, if we have immigrant quotas, and they had been beyond the quota, Michelle Malkin might well have been a Philippine. and the Philippine's is currently a hot bed of terrorism makers-big Islamic presence there. hmmm
2. If the founders felt strongly on this issue, why do restraints on who could come to the US directly contradict the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Commerce Clause?
3. Mexicans are almost universally Catholic. They are not muslim. Few are terrorists
4. Why are muslims considered a group until they become ex-muslim-then they are considered an individual? (ex: Bosch Fawstin, Ayaan Hirsi Ali)
5. why is it that the Conservatives are hugely vocal about the Constitution until it contradicts their desires. Then they willfully ignore it?
1. Michelle Malkin was born just a few weeks after her parents came to the US. They were sponsored by a company. However, if we have immigrant quotas, and they had been beyond the quota, Michelle Malkin might well have been a Philippine. and the Philippine's is currently a hot bed of terrorism makers-big Islamic presence there. hmmm
2. If the founders felt strongly on this issue, why do restraints on who could come to the US directly contradict the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Commerce Clause?
3. Mexicans are almost universally Catholic. They are not muslim. Few are terrorists
4. Why are muslims considered a group until they become ex-muslim-then they are considered an individual? (ex: Bosch Fawstin, Ayaan Hirsi Ali)
5. why is it that the Conservatives are hugely vocal about the Constitution until it contradicts their desires. Then they willfully ignore it?
As to the Founder's thoughts on immigration and the Individual Right of freedom to travel, today's conservatives are arguing from emotionalism, encouraged by nationalism and state-ism, and resulting in attempts to alter history. The Founders, not including the Federalists such as Hamilton, fully knew and appreciated all Individual Rights. They didn't so much think from the stand-point of exclusion, as much as they thought from the stand-point of developing and maintaining a country that would attract men of certain attributes and would be unattractive to men without those attributes.
But at the same time, they never could have imagined this country as socialist and democracy based as it has become with concepts of civil and human rights over-riding and replacing Individual Rights, nor did they ever desire the nationalism and imperialism that conservatives preach today. However they were convinced that 'citizenship' rights were properly exclusionary, being reserved to those, that after a substantial time and assimilation to the ideas of the country, as well as demonstrated self sufficiency and desire could and would want to apply for that full citizenship. Those that couldn't or wouldn't satisfy those expectations would fail, leave, or contract or indenture themselves into some form of servitude.
Re-read Commerce Clause. When written, it was all about travel. nothing virtual in those days! and 4th and 5th Amendment. c'mon!
Cross border travel at that time was not the trivial exercise (relatively speaking) it is today. I think this was an area of very unanticipated change. Travel from Europe to North America was measured in weeks/months, not hours. Travel from the Spanish and Portugese colonies in South America also weeks/months.
Had travel been significantly easier at the time, immigration would have been more directly addressed. The effort and slowness of travel is one of the contributors to having an democratic/republic - indirect democracy.
Don't invite or allow criminals to enter.
Don't allow persons who show hatred for you or yours in any way to enter.
Don't allow anyone who cannot show the ability to support themselves to enter.
If you want to help the impoverished or disabled, raise the money yourself.
You can ask for help but you cannot demand it.
Well, that would be a start.
Rule 2. Agreed also - especially those persons whose religion enjoins them to hate us.
Rule 3. Don't agree - allow them to enter, but do not support them in any way using the public coffers.
I stand corrected and bow to your experience.
Do you maintain USA citizenship?
I'm intrigued by this. I only went to Mexico for one week during spring break in high school, not long enough to get a feel for whether it's freer. I'm intrigued by even tiny aspects of liberty that could be adopted where I live and everywhere.
I am a conservative not because I don't like change. I am a conservative because the foundational principles of America are worth preserving. I am quite ready to change. It is time for a "spring cleaning" to sweep out the looters and moochers.
The point of the whole picture being free under the law. Entering illegally flouts that law.
Not an actual policy or right.
Statue of Liberty was erected after the country was founded. A modern colossus of Rhodes gifted by a friendly power.
A change that was never put before the people directly.
America has always controlled her borders and periodically have shut those borders completely to allow assimilation time.
You wonder about culture dilution? That is the intended consequence of the deliberate balkanization that has replaced assimilation in this country. Too much of academia and media is part of the anti-America bandwagon.
Without cultural assimilation you have a dogs breakfast of insular cysts of foreign culture with no inclination or desire to consider themselves Americans.
When you are a hyphenated-American the label that is important to you is before the hyphen, not after.
The problem is assimilation is no longer encouraged but discouraged.
Since not even the use of english as an official language is official policy, government entities translate their mountains of outgassing into over 200 languages. Schools in cities have anywhere from 20 to 80 languages spoken in the school.
Those two things massively discourage assimilation. Why learn the language and assimilate? Its a lot of work and no problems if you don't.
The government forces everyone to accommodate you, but you are not required to accommodate the prevailing culture. Not even to the basic level of language.
Effectively you wind up with insular communities who keep the culture they came from in many respects rather than adapting to the host culture.
To hell with "many."
I goofed on that. Illegal is illegal is illegal.
Also, back in the original founders' era, Muslim immigration was non-existent. I have had hundreds of Muslim students, some of whom will be lifelong friends. I respect them as individuals, and have no problem with their immigration here, provided that they do not choose to enforce their belief system on me. Thus far, in Florida, they haven't. When I lived in Michigan, not far from Dearborn, they did.
I respectfully recommend that everyone reads the words of Calvin Coolidge regarding immigration, as summarized by the Madison Project:
http://madisonproject.com/2013/05/cal...
A key quote from Coolidge follows.
“Restricted immigration is not an offensive, but purely a defensive action. It is not adopted in criticism of others in the slightest degree, but solely for the purpose of protecting ourselves. We cast no aspersions on any race or creed, but we must remember that every object of our institutions of society and government will fail unless America be kept American. - See more at: http://madisonproject.com/2013/05/cal...
In summary, Coolidge, acting as the representative of a duly elected government, helped pass legislation that acted in the self-interest of both those people already here and those who were considering coming.
If one accepts people with fundamentally opposite views of morality, as outlined brilliantly be bsmith51 elsewhere in this thread, any nation will cease to have any values. A view to the contrary is ultimately self-destructive.
Just because Castro would want to extend his own life does not give him the right to emigrate. Despite what you and/or anyone else thinks, emigration is a privilege. And that privilege can be taken away.
2) Because if someone has a demonstrated lack of respect for the rights of others in his/her own country, there is no moral obligation on behalf of a nation's citizens to tolerate that immigrant until he/she commits a crime in the new country.
Quotas are never the answer. The root issue is does the prospective immigrant want to joint the American society. If so check their premises as best we can and give them a quick but informed decision. If on the other hand they don't want to become an "American" whatever that means to us individually, they should not be granted any permanent status, but remain aliens on visas.
I agree the system is slow and disfunctional, quotas are not a solution, they are part of the problem.
As to child born in the US, that should have been clarified to include at least one parent being either a citizen or permanent legal resident. Having pregnant women coming in temporarily with or without legal status to give birth and then using that infant as the anchor to give them legal status is wrong and should not be allowed.
Welfare's original good intention was a helping hand in hard times. What it morphed into was a way of life for too many.
To this extent, I disagree: Objectivism is a life-affirming philosophy. Most religions are based upon philosophies that are not. When a religion actively preaches the death of those who won't convert, I deem those that follow that religion uncivilized, a threat, and not welcome. Islam is both Attila and the Witch Doctor and those that practice it should not be allowed into the country. That is for the preservation of ALL in this country that reject such a philosophy of death.
Humans are social animals, we identify as "group" at a fundamental level. Evolution of society goes from small groups to ever larger groups. For example Family to Clan to locality to region to state. At every level within society people self identify as part of a group.
What matters is how much of a person's loyalty is to group as opposed to individual. Sadly, there is no way to determine that ratio from the outside.
When an individual's primary loyalty is to a group that opposes the society they are "entering" either they have to transfer their loyalty or they act against society at some point.
The welfare state magnifies this effect because it removes the "self support" filter from the process. You get a horde of people coming for the free ride rather than wanting to assimilate.
The reason the Founders weren't too concerned with immigration was because they realized how big this country could grow, and that it needed a growing population to make that growth productive. Newcomers were welcome then. If they could have looked into the future and seen the problems of unfettered immigration/invasion, I have no doubt they would have placed firm restraints on the immigration process.
(begins here)
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
... and many more.
It may be somewhat technically incorrect to call it "immigration" policy, but rather naturalization policy (and for that technicality I apologize if there was confusion) where naturalization is the process by which one becomes a Citizen of the United States.
We struggle with these issues more today than ever because we have changed our society. Past immigrants were not all that different from those of today but the agar in the petri dish is much different. Immigrants had no support system that allowed them to exist outside of the established norms. They found a job, any job that supported them. They realized that better jobs, better pay and a better life could only be obtained by learning the language, getting more education, developing desired skills, obeying the law and blending in with the majority. As long as they resisted doing so they were branded as foreigners, called names and excluded from desirable activities. It may have been tough on a generation or two but they succeeded. The harsh reality melded them into one people and many that were foreigners yesterday are the most intolerant today.
Our Constitution, as written by the founders is very wise in allowing for interpretation and experimentation. Perhaps we need to be more critical of the experimental results and willing to reset to the default positions when something that worked so well is bogging down and threatening to go blue screen.
1. I disagree with the current interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment which grants citizenship to any who are merely born on US soil. I don't believe the original author of the Fourteenth Amendment nor those who ratified it at the time subscribed to such an interpretation with the exception of the blacks - and that because they had no nationality of origin other than the US. As such, I don't believe Malkin should have been granted citizenship status until she had been legally naturalized.
2. I see nothing in either the first Ten Amendments, the Constitution itself nor specifically the Commerce Clause which touch on immigration other than to delegate Immigration policy to Congress. If you would care to elaborate on how you arrive at your inferred immigration readings from any such, I would appreciate the perspective.
3. I don't care what religion they are from. They need to come here legally. I'm not going to universally accept Catholics any more than I am going to universally ban Muslims. What I want to know is if you intend on coming here to live by the laws and ideals of the United States or your home country. That to me will determine whether you may apply to become a citizen or remain a visitor. That Catholics are certainly going to be more amenable to living by the Constitution than Muslims may certainly factor in, however.
4. Sorry, but I can't help you here. I would say that there is tremendous confusion about Islam and it's acceptability not only in the US, but in the World in general and our current President has done little but attempt to persuade everyone to ignore the true fundamentals of Islam.
5. Not going to speak for anyone else, but if this is a reference to #2, you're going to have to demonstrate to me where in the Constitution or which of our Founders were specifically in favor of unqualified, unrestricted immigration as you seem to claim.
Personally, I don't support anyone who thinks they have a "right" to emigrate the United States - no matter where they come from and for what reason they wish to come here. I echo the words of both Madison and Washington who called for immigration policy that betters our country and encourages those who come to assimilate to the standards of this nation: principally individual liberty and personal responsibility. Those who attempt to come here but wish to live by their own values especially when those values conflict with the values of Americans should be turned away.
It's NOT just conservatives. Everyone is tempted to ignore the Constitution when it contradicts their desires. It exists to stand up to desires of the mob.
I think the issue of immigration will go away on its own because it's so easy to send value across borders. Human beings and physical parts get inspected and slowed down by custom, creating a hassle for developers, but the plans (CAD drawings, software, firmware) sail easily across borders. All the value is in the plans. People created the nation state because geographic barriers slowed the movement of people and materials, and people on opposite sides of those barriers had different values and interests. The conditions that created borders have disappeared from earth, and I see them mostly as a vestige of a time long gone.
I completely agree with that paragraph.
We differ on the second bit.
America is a collection of ideas and ideals.
It is not represented by any single or panopoly of symbols. It is represented by the sum of its people, living together peacefully under the umbrella of its Constitution and evolved law.
The Constiution and laws are the framework to protect our individual rights. (Misused at times granted)
Without the underpinning of law, people tend toward chaos. Much like the universe at large tends to go from order to chaos.
A country without border controls is no longer a country it is chaos with a border. Just look at what is happening in the EU while being overrun with "refugees".
I don't care about whether the individual wanting in is rich or poor. I care about whether they want to become and American with the responsibilities and rights entailed.
George Soros for example, is rich indeed and I consider him very destructive to every society he has entered. He should never have been let into America and should be deported. Preferably to Russia who have an extradition warrant out on him as I recall.
It has been deliberately broken by politicians on both sides of the aisle. The left is looking for new voters, the right is looking for cheap labor. Both are exploiting, just for different goals. Neither is right.