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Founders On Immigration

Posted by khalling 8 years ago to Philosophy
112 comments | Share | Flag

I am re-posting this article in light of Castro kicking the bucket. and I had a few thoughts. When conversing with many Conservatives, I find that they are welcoming to those Cubans, who under great risk, flee the country for Florida. and in that light I wanted to make a few comments to this article.
1. Michelle Malkin was born just a few weeks after her parents came to the US. They were sponsored by a company. However, if we have immigrant quotas, and they had been beyond the quota, Michelle Malkin might well have been a Philippine. and the Philippine's is currently a hot bed of terrorism makers-big Islamic presence there. hmmm
2. If the founders felt strongly on this issue, why do restraints on who could come to the US directly contradict the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the Commerce Clause?
3. Mexicans are almost universally Catholic. They are not muslim. Few are terrorists
4. Why are muslims considered a group until they become ex-muslim-then they are considered an individual? (ex: Bosch Fawstin, Ayaan Hirsi Ali)
5. why is it that the Conservatives are hugely vocal about the Constitution until it contradicts their desires. Then they willfully ignore it?
SOURCE URL: https://www.creators.com/read/michelle-malkin/12/15/immigration-and-our-founding-fathers-values


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  • 11
    Posted by freedomforall 8 years ago
    Yes, the Jeffersonian founders would have opposed most of the actions of the feds today. If the feds didn't do all that unconstitutional rubbish, then an open border would not be the disaster it is given present federal over-reach.
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  • 11
    Posted by Zenphamy 8 years ago
    Hi k; I don't know much or care to, about Malkin--though it's obvious from both her writings and what she chooses to write about that she's not a thinker.

    As to the Founder's thoughts on immigration and the Individual Right of freedom to travel, today's conservatives are arguing from emotionalism, encouraged by nationalism and state-ism, and resulting in attempts to alter history. The Founders, not including the Federalists such as Hamilton, fully knew and appreciated all Individual Rights. They didn't so much think from the stand-point of exclusion, as much as they thought from the stand-point of developing and maintaining a country that would attract men of certain attributes and would be unattractive to men without those attributes.

    But at the same time, they never could have imagined this country as socialist and democracy based as it has become with concepts of civil and human rights over-riding and replacing Individual Rights, nor did they ever desire the nationalism and imperialism that conservatives preach today. However they were convinced that 'citizenship' rights were properly exclusionary, being reserved to those, that after a substantial time and assimilation to the ideas of the country, as well as demonstrated self sufficiency and desire could and would want to apply for that full citizenship. Those that couldn't or wouldn't satisfy those expectations would fail, leave, or contract or indenture themselves into some form of servitude.
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    • Posted by $ prof611 8 years ago
      I have thoroughly read both the Constitution and the works of Ayn Rand, and cannot recall seeing anything about the "right of freedom to travel". Could you please explain what this means, and where it came from?
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years ago
        prof; The 'individual right of freedom to travel', sometimes referred to as 'freedom of movement', began receiving notice and recognition with Magna Carta and considered as 'Common Law'. It is understood to be a necessary Right to exercise the Rights of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" in the US Constitution and further protected by the "privileges and immunities" clause, the 5th Amendment "due process", and the 14th and some think the 10th as well. The US Supreme Court has addressed the Right numerous times and it's still being addressed positively by Federal Courts as late as 2013 in reference to 'Do Not Fly Lists.'
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      • Posted by 8 years ago
        concrete bound imperialist? If I told you 2 +2 =4 and then I said 4+4=8, you would say, I never saw where that was said.
        Re-read Commerce Clause. When written, it was all about travel. nothing virtual in those days! and 4th and 5th Amendment. c'mon!
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        • Posted by $ prof611 8 years ago
          Is there a reason for your sarcasm? Why not explain what you mean instead of citing references that are irrelevant? The Commerce Clause says nothing about travel. One does not have to travel in order to conduct commerce! And what on earth do the 4th and 5th Ammendements say about travel... nothing!
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          • Posted by 8 years ago
            look to when it was written! exactly how do you think business was transacted then? so you are so literal that you get none of the obvious implications of the law. there's nothing more for me to say here.
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            • Posted by $ prof611 8 years ago
              The Constitution should be taken literally. There is nothing "obvious" about your "implications". If you wish to update, or modernize it, then propose an Ammendment. That's what they're for!
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              • Posted by Maritimus 8 years ago
                I would urge you to study Justice Scalia's writings about how the Constitution should be interpreted. Just reading it is useless. Deriving its meaning and applying that meaning to a concrete question is the real task at hand.
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    • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
      I can understand the founders' inability to predict the future in all respects, considering what they started with the result was amazing.

      Cross border travel at that time was not the trivial exercise (relatively speaking) it is today. I think this was an area of very unanticipated change. Travel from Europe to North America was measured in weeks/months, not hours. Travel from the Spanish and Portugese colonies in South America also weeks/months.

      Had travel been significantly easier at the time, immigration would have been more directly addressed. The effort and slowness of travel is one of the contributors to having an democratic/republic - indirect democracy.
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  • 10
    Posted by Herb7734 8 years ago
    Cool heads and common sense usually supply the solutions to tough problems. If you consider the nation as your home, a few simple rules apply.
    Don't invite or allow criminals to enter.
    Don't allow persons who show hatred for you or yours in any way to enter.
    Don't allow anyone who cannot show the ability to support themselves to enter.
    If you want to help the impoverished or disabled, raise the money yourself.
    You can ask for help but you cannot demand it.
    Well, that would be a start.
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    • Posted by $ prof611 8 years ago
      Rule 1. Agreed.
      Rule 2. Agreed also - especially those persons whose religion enjoins them to hate us.
      Rule 3. Don't agree - allow them to enter, but do not support them in any way using the public coffers.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years ago
        Once we get immigration under control, we can afford to be more generous and change #3.
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        • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years ago
          I would not have caved there Herb, especially in this day and age. I understood #3 perfectly and it also applies to our laws and culture Too. The creatures government have brought here, don't necessarily want to be here as much as they didn't want to be where they were at. Generally, they oppose everything we stand for, or used to or at least was our stated ideal.
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          • Posted by Herb7734 8 years ago
            I think that once the immigration BS is resolved, we can return to letting decent people who don't have a trade or profession in so they may develop the chance to do what's necessary to achieve success.
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            • Posted by Herb7734 8 years ago
              We've just had 8 years of destructing the country in increments. Anything in the opposite direction will be an improvement. If Hillary had won, you might have seen immigrants pouring into Mexico in order to get jobs.
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              • Posted by 8 years ago
                actually that is already occurring.
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                • Posted by Herb7734 8 years ago
                  Really? Persons who enjoy repression?
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                  • Posted by 8 years ago
                    no. persons who are looking for opportunity. I live in Mexico. My de facto freedom is greater than yours
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                    • Posted by Herb7734 8 years ago
                      I didn't know. My only impression of Mexico was when I lived in San Diego and visited Tijuana and Ensenada. I knew a Federal Judge who was born in Mexico and maintained a place on the Atlantic coast which was his vacation/retirement home. His main comment was how inexpensive it was to live there.
                      I stand corrected and bow to your experience.
                      Do you maintain USA citizenship?
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                    • Posted by libertylad 8 years ago
                      Just curious, kh, how can you defend yourself in Mexico? What are your rights as expats if the local corrupt police decide you (and your gringo money contribution to the economy) are no longer enough? (I admit to be speaking from limited information, and asking as devils advocate.)
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                    • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years ago
                      "My de facto freedom is greater than yours"
                      I'm intrigued by this. I only went to Mexico for one week during spring break in high school, not long enough to get a feel for whether it's freer. I'm intrigued by even tiny aspects of liberty that could be adopted where I live and everywhere.
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    • Posted by 8 years ago
      only the rich would be selected. is that the country of bring your tired your poor those yearning to be free?
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
        The presumption here is that all who come are yearning to be free. Many who come here now do not come for that purpose.
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        • Posted by 8 years ago
          few who come do not come for that purpose. That the PResident sponsors large numbers of refugees is not the way it should work. but trust me-the vast majority of latin americans crossing the border are looking for opportunities for themselves and their families
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
            There is a difference between yearning to be free and looking for opportunities. Many people from the State of New York come to Florida looking for opportunities, and bring their socialism with them. The same is true for immigrants, both legal and illegal. Coolidge's point was that what made America uniquely desirable to Objectivists can be lost if too many people who do not appreciate America's values are admitted. Until the legislation he signed as president was superceded by Ted Kennedy's legislation in the 1960s, America largely still held what are traditionally called American values. Now roughly half of America's citizens, not counting legal or illegal immigrants, vote to loot from the other half. This is precisely what Coolidge warned against in the quotes I shared earlier. Speaking of the founders, it is what Ben Franklin meant when he said that he had "given us a republic, if we could keep it." We have had an immigration policy consistent with what you wanted for the last 50 years, and now producers are here in the Gulch, trying to grasp a remnant of what made America uniquely successful. We are on the cusp of losing the republic.

            I am a conservative not because I don't like change. I am a conservative because the foundational principles of America are worth preserving. I am quite ready to change. It is time for a "spring cleaning" to sweep out the looters and moochers.
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      • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
        Also if you would invoke the Statue of Liberty, recall that the tablet in her left arm represents Law.

        The point of the whole picture being free under the law. Entering illegally flouts that law.
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      • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
        That is a line from a French poem.

        Not an actual policy or right.

        Statue of Liberty was erected after the country was founded. A modern colossus of Rhodes gifted by a friendly power.
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        • Posted by 8 years ago
          it is a symbol. even as a gift, it represents something intrinsic to our country. everyone worries about the dilution of US culture, which of course, is due to the Constitution and Amendments and Bill of Rights
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          • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
            Open borders as a concept and effective policy is a recent change. Primarily post 1965.

            A change that was never put before the people directly.

            America has always controlled her borders and periodically have shut those borders completely to allow assimilation time.

            You wonder about culture dilution? That is the intended consequence of the deliberate balkanization that has replaced assimilation in this country. Too much of academia and media is part of the anti-America bandwagon.

            Without cultural assimilation you have a dogs breakfast of insular cysts of foreign culture with no inclination or desire to consider themselves Americans.

            When you are a hyphenated-American the label that is important to you is before the hyphen, not after.
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            • Posted by 8 years ago
              I concur. but that is the case of ideas, not immigration-else how did 10s of thousands of Asians assimilate? not even from a western culture.
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              • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
                They were able to assimilate because they wanted to and were encouraged and supported in doing so. (Not by the government of course)

                The problem is assimilation is no longer encouraged but discouraged.

                Since not even the use of english as an official language is official policy, government entities translate their mountains of outgassing into over 200 languages. Schools in cities have anywhere from 20 to 80 languages spoken in the school.

                Those two things massively discourage assimilation. Why learn the language and assimilate? Its a lot of work and no problems if you don't.

                The government forces everyone to accommodate you, but you are not required to accommodate the prevailing culture. Not even to the basic level of language.

                Effectively you wind up with insular communities who keep the culture they came from in many respects rather than adapting to the host culture.
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  • 10
    Posted by bsmith51 8 years ago
    4) Because, by definition, a faithful Muslim is commanded by his Qur'an (every Arabic character of which is regarded as the direct, unassailable word of Allah) and the Hadith (the word of the Prophet) to convert or subjugate and tax or murder every non-believer. Further, they are commanded to do these things until a world caliphate is established. They are also invited to use deception among non-believers so as to infiltrate and subdue them. The ability of any "Muslim" to peacefully coexist with any non-Muslim is directly related to that Muslim's willingness to bend or break the text of his own holy books, rendering him guilty of apostasy and inviting a sentence of death. Even family members are invited to rat out their own who even question the word of Allah, and following the execution of such member, the family is considered stronger for it. So long as this is the case - until Islam accepts a reformation - its very existence on this earth is antithetical to peaceful coexistence with any "non-believer."
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
    Back in the founders' era, there was no welfare state. You could not come to the US, and be a moocher. Under that more Objectivist system in that era, a free immigration system would be entirely reasonable. Unfortunately, America has been re-founded ... by the Roosevelts, Wilson, etc.

    Also, back in the original founders' era, Muslim immigration was non-existent. I have had hundreds of Muslim students, some of whom will be lifelong friends. I respect them as individuals, and have no problem with their immigration here, provided that they do not choose to enforce their belief system on me. Thus far, in Florida, they haven't. When I lived in Michigan, not far from Dearborn, they did.

    I respectfully recommend that everyone reads the words of Calvin Coolidge regarding immigration, as summarized by the Madison Project:

    http://madisonproject.com/2013/05/cal...

    A key quote from Coolidge follows.

    “Restricted immigration is not an offensive, but purely a defensive action. It is not adopted in criticism of others in the slightest degree, but solely for the purpose of protecting ourselves. We cast no aspersions on any race or creed, but we must remember that every object of our institutions of society and government will fail unless America be kept American. - See more at: http://madisonproject.com/2013/05/cal...

    In summary, Coolidge, acting as the representative of a duly elected government, helped pass legislation that acted in the self-interest of both those people already here and those who were considering coming.
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    • Posted by dbhalling 8 years ago
      emotionalism, not logic
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
        I fundamentally disagree. This was not emotional at all. Self-preservation is the most fundamental of all forms of self-interest. If one does not protect his own life, he will lose it.

        If one accepts people with fundamentally opposite views of morality, as outlined brilliantly be bsmith51 elsewhere in this thread, any nation will cease to have any values. A view to the contrary is ultimately self-destructive.
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        • Posted by 8 years ago
          I am not sure the self-preservation of others inhibits yours.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
            This incorrectly presumes that all others wish to preserve my life, or at least not interfere with it. In most cases, this presumption is true, but not in all.
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            • Posted by 8 years ago
              I am not incorrect. all others, one must assume, want to preserve their own life. they do not think of you. they look to the the place, the land, and yes, the law, to make their decision.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                OK. It's time for an example. Let us say that Fidel Castro had decided he wanted to move to America. By your standard, we would have had no basis for keeping him out. Of course, we have a basis for keeping him out. He does not respect the rights of others. That is the basis for keeping Castro and anyone else who likewise disrespects the rights of others out.

                Just because Castro would want to extend his own life does not give him the right to emigrate. Despite what you and/or anyone else thinks, emigration is a privilege. And that privilege can be taken away.
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                • Posted by 8 years ago
                  we would have no basis until he committed a crime. yes! tht is the standard US citizens live by. why would it not apply to all free men?
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                    1) Because citizenship does have, and should have, certain privileges to go along with the responsibilities that citizenship entails; and

                    2) Because if someone has a demonstrated lack of respect for the rights of others in his/her own country, there is no moral obligation on behalf of a nation's citizens to tolerate that immigrant until he/she commits a crime in the new country.
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          • Posted by 8 years ago
            Did Michelle Malkin's accident of birth upset your life in any way?
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
              I do not like the term "accident of birth". Birth is not an accident. Except in very rare cases, it is the result of two consenting adults expressing their appreciation of the other's finest qualities, and then at least one of them continues to perpetuate the result until a self-sustaining life is born. Ms. Malkin's birth has been a positive for my life. The fundamental premise necessary for acceptance of others into my society is that they agree to the idea to not make others their subjects. If a Muslim does that, then they are simultaneously denying the Qu'ran. Contradictions cannot exist.
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              • Posted by 8 years ago
                accident of birth refers to whether or not you were born in a free nation or a totalitarian nation or a nation in war. it IS an accident-for you. too many americans hold up exceptionalism as their right of birth and not for all men. this is clear in the Constitution
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                • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years ago
                  I know what accident of birth means, and I readily accept that I won life's lottery by being born in America. I and others are quite willing to grant such opportunities to all men and women ... who respect the rights of others.
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                  • Posted by 8 years ago
                    we agree on this. procedural, says that there is a quota legally. so let's say you are quota +1. Is your freedom less than a child born in the US? also, who is your greatest enemy? I propose that your greatest enemy was born in the US.
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                    • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
                      Quotas are put in placed by people unable or unwilling to make informed judgment. They do not desire nor can they be made to have the responsibility to make judgments.

                      Quotas are never the answer. The root issue is does the prospective immigrant want to joint the American society. If so check their premises as best we can and give them a quick but informed decision. If on the other hand they don't want to become an "American" whatever that means to us individually, they should not be granted any permanent status, but remain aliens on visas.

                      I agree the system is slow and disfunctional, quotas are not a solution, they are part of the problem.

                      As to child born in the US, that should have been clarified to include at least one parent being either a citizen or permanent legal resident. Having pregnant women coming in temporarily with or without legal status to give birth and then using that infant as the anchor to give them legal status is wrong and should not be allowed.
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                      • Posted by 8 years ago
                        well, they are tied. what right does a US mother have toward welfare that a mexican mother should not have? the problem is welfare and in case you have not noticed, our children's age is voting democrat by the millions
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                        • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
                          Oh I've noticed K. I've been against welfare from the get go. While there is some blame for Mexicans entering illegally to take advantage of welfare. There is even more blame for America creating the welfare state in the first place.

                          Welfare's original good intention was a helping hand in hard times. What it morphed into was a way of life for too many.
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      • Posted by IndianaGary 8 years ago
        Someone keeps down marking you. ;-(

        To this extent, I disagree: Objectivism is a life-affirming philosophy. Most religions are based upon philosophies that are not. When a religion actively preaches the death of those who won't convert, I deem those that follow that religion uncivilized, a threat, and not welcome. Islam is both Attila and the Witch Doctor and those that practice it should not be allowed into the country. That is for the preservation of ALL in this country that reject such a philosophy of death.
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      • Posted by $ prof611 8 years ago
        Your comment is so terse that I don't understand to what you are referring. Nor what your comment means.
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        • Posted by 8 years ago
          group think is anathema in here
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          • Posted by $ prof611 8 years ago
            ???
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            • Posted by 8 years ago
              the US should accept individuals. they should not be making decisions on "groups" unless we actively declare war. ok. declare war. you need legislature for that
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              • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
                Respectfully disagree K.

                Humans are social animals, we identify as "group" at a fundamental level. Evolution of society goes from small groups to ever larger groups. For example Family to Clan to locality to region to state. At every level within society people self identify as part of a group.

                What matters is how much of a person's loyalty is to group as opposed to individual. Sadly, there is no way to determine that ratio from the outside.

                When an individual's primary loyalty is to a group that opposes the society they are "entering" either they have to transfer their loyalty or they act against society at some point.

                The welfare state magnifies this effect because it removes the "self support" filter from the process. You get a horde of people coming for the free ride rather than wanting to assimilate.
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              • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years ago
                Correct. That's why we need to know exactly who the individuals are that are being admitted. Without a credible, reliable system of vetting, we should be hesitant to admit anyone coming from bastions of terror. The meaning of the words "refugee" and "asylum seeker" have become distorted to allow almost anyone to come here under those labels.
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                • Posted by 8 years ago
                  I am ok on vetting. however, our process is slow-to the point of absurd and just paper pushing. Clearly terrorists get in , biding their paper pushing time -most people in the world are productive and good with higher levels of freedom.
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                  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years ago
                    It isn't just a matter of whether people are "good" (very subjective term, that) so much as it is culturally adaptable. Even a fairly sophisticated society, by our standards, like Russia, has a different focus on customer relations, for example. The quality of product or service delivered, so highly prized in American society, is distinctly less important than simply availability to the rural Russian, who is often shocked when American customers complain about shoddy service. Russians, however, are fairly good at adjusting to finicky Americans, and have a history of success. The same is much more difficult for Somalis, as one example, and they experience a high degree of failure to adapt, with emotional stress to such a degree that the rate of depression, domestic violence, and suicide is high among their immigrant communities. Are we doing these newcomers a favor, or should we try a different approach?
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              • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years ago
                The US "should" accept individuals? Since when is that our duty? There is no "right" to be a citizen of the US, or even a permanent resident. The government's responsibility is to protect its own citizens, not the alleged "right" of anyone who wants to come here. Today's incident at Ohio State is just the latest example of what happens when the government defaults on its primary responsibility to its citizens.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years ago
    Not all who cross our borders against the law are peaceful Mexican agricultural workers. One of the world's most dangerous gangs, MS-13, from Honduras, has established a presence in most large American cities. They terrorize our native Hispanic communities and conduct gun battles with the Crips and Bloods over drug turf. Because many of these gangsters start as young teens, many arrive as unaccompanied "children", and are allowed to stay. If you see a 14 year old with several tears tattooed on his cheek, that's telling you this "child" has already murdered three people. Expecting these invaders to become model, hardworking citizens is a delusion.

    The reason the Founders weren't too concerned with immigration was because they realized how big this country could grow, and that it needed a growing population to make that growth productive. Newcomers were welcome then. If they could have looked into the future and seen the problems of unfettered immigration/invasion, I have no doubt they would have placed firm restraints on the immigration process.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years ago
      They actually did, if you read the Constitution. They expressly placed the rules about Immigration in the hands of Congress to form and adjust as necessary.
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      • Posted by 8 years ago
        Please show. I am interested
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        • Posted by $ blarman 8 years ago
          From Article I, Section 8 (which specifically enumerates various powers expressly delegated to Congress:

          (begins here)
          The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

          To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

          To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian Tribes;

          To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

          To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

          ... and many more.

          It may be somewhat technically incorrect to call it "immigration" policy, but rather naturalization policy (and for that technicality I apologize if there was confusion) where naturalization is the process by which one becomes a Citizen of the United States.
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  • Posted by coaldigger 8 years ago
    Having open borders to a welfare state is a recipe for bankruptcy. Welcoming immigrants do not wish to assimilate into the prevailing culture creates factional strife. Harboring enemies that wish to do us harm is inviting the Trojan horse to overturn our society.

    We struggle with these issues more today than ever because we have changed our society. Past immigrants were not all that different from those of today but the agar in the petri dish is much different. Immigrants had no support system that allowed them to exist outside of the established norms. They found a job, any job that supported them. They realized that better jobs, better pay and a better life could only be obtained by learning the language, getting more education, developing desired skills, obeying the law and blending in with the majority. As long as they resisted doing so they were branded as foreigners, called names and excluded from desirable activities. It may have been tough on a generation or two but they succeeded. The harsh reality melded them into one people and many that were foreigners yesterday are the most intolerant today.

    Our Constitution, as written by the founders is very wise in allowing for interpretation and experimentation. Perhaps we need to be more critical of the experimental results and willing to reset to the default positions when something that worked so well is bogging down and threatening to go blue screen.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years ago
    In regards to the questions posed above:
    1. I disagree with the current interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment which grants citizenship to any who are merely born on US soil. I don't believe the original author of the Fourteenth Amendment nor those who ratified it at the time subscribed to such an interpretation with the exception of the blacks - and that because they had no nationality of origin other than the US. As such, I don't believe Malkin should have been granted citizenship status until she had been legally naturalized.
    2. I see nothing in either the first Ten Amendments, the Constitution itself nor specifically the Commerce Clause which touch on immigration other than to delegate Immigration policy to Congress. If you would care to elaborate on how you arrive at your inferred immigration readings from any such, I would appreciate the perspective.
    3. I don't care what religion they are from. They need to come here legally. I'm not going to universally accept Catholics any more than I am going to universally ban Muslims. What I want to know is if you intend on coming here to live by the laws and ideals of the United States or your home country. That to me will determine whether you may apply to become a citizen or remain a visitor. That Catholics are certainly going to be more amenable to living by the Constitution than Muslims may certainly factor in, however.
    4. Sorry, but I can't help you here. I would say that there is tremendous confusion about Islam and it's acceptability not only in the US, but in the World in general and our current President has done little but attempt to persuade everyone to ignore the true fundamentals of Islam.
    5. Not going to speak for anyone else, but if this is a reference to #2, you're going to have to demonstrate to me where in the Constitution or which of our Founders were specifically in favor of unqualified, unrestricted immigration as you seem to claim.

    Personally, I don't support anyone who thinks they have a "right" to emigrate the United States - no matter where they come from and for what reason they wish to come here. I echo the words of both Madison and Washington who called for immigration policy that betters our country and encourages those who come to assimilate to the standards of this nation: principally individual liberty and personal responsibility. Those who attempt to come here but wish to live by their own values especially when those values conflict with the values of Americans should be turned away.
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    • Posted by 8 years ago
      then tear down the symbol of Lady Liberty. bomb it. that is what you support. own it and work toward its demise
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years ago
        Liberty is a principle in and of itself, would you not agree? So a proposal that offers to allow those of an anti-liberty posture not only unfettered but privileged access to the United States of America is self-defeating and contradictory.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years ago
    on "Conservatives...ignoring..."...simple...they are pragmatists with no reasoned, principled, or concretely logical values...the blow with the wind in every direction...
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years ago
    The Founding Fathers did not have to deal with immigrants who repaid their host country’s hospitality by crashing airplanes into buildings, killing thousands of people. Michelle Malkin’s article is a breath of fresh air.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years ago
    "why is it that the Conservatives are hugely vocal about the Constitution until it contradicts their desires."
    It's NOT just conservatives. Everyone is tempted to ignore the Constitution when it contradicts their desires. It exists to stand up to desires of the mob.

    I think the issue of immigration will go away on its own because it's so easy to send value across borders. Human beings and physical parts get inspected and slowed down by custom, creating a hassle for developers, but the plans (CAD drawings, software, firmware) sail easily across borders. All the value is in the plans. People created the nation state because geographic barriers slowed the movement of people and materials, and people on opposite sides of those barriers had different values and interests. The conditions that created borders have disappeared from earth, and I see them mostly as a vestige of a time long gone.
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    • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years ago
      Culturally, people on the opposite side of borders still often have very different values and interests. The conditions that created borders are still very much with us.
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  • Posted by 8 years ago
    if we want to say the flag means everything. ok. what about Lady Liberty? if we do not support what the statue of Liberty represents. BLOW IT UP. it is not the US do it-that's what many of you advocate. get rid of the symbol.
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    • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
      We disagree on the meaning K.

      America is a collection of ideas and ideals.

      It is not represented by any single or panopoly of symbols. It is represented by the sum of its people, living together peacefully under the umbrella of its Constitution and evolved law.

      The Constiution and laws are the framework to protect our individual rights. (Misused at times granted)

      Without the underpinning of law, people tend toward chaos. Much like the universe at large tends to go from order to chaos.
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      • Posted by 8 years ago
        so if you are poor, and a refugee, wanting to make something out of your life-you are dirt. If you have wealth and can sustain in the US, we throw open our arms. that is not the Constitution. nor will it ever be. re-write it. get votes. ok
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        • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
          America has no legal obligation to take in ANYONE. Nor does any other country have an obligation of that type.

          A country without border controls is no longer a country it is chaos with a border. Just look at what is happening in the EU while being overrun with "refugees".

          I don't care about whether the individual wanting in is rich or poor. I care about whether they want to become and American with the responsibilities and rights entailed.

          George Soros for example, is rich indeed and I consider him very destructive to every society he has entered. He should never have been let into America and should be deported. Preferably to Russia who have an extradition warrant out on him as I recall.
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        • Posted by Technocracy 8 years ago
          America's immigration system is dysfunctional.

          It has been deliberately broken by politicians on both sides of the aisle. The left is looking for new voters, the right is looking for cheap labor. Both are exploiting, just for different goals. Neither is right.
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        • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years ago
          A false alternative: Either we have to let you in or we think you are dirt. It may be desirable to allow certain people to immigrate, but it is certainly not our obligation. Nor are we stopping people outside our borders from establishing their own free societies.
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