Bitcoin too 'libertarian' for Hillary Clinton

Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 1 month ago to Politics
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"The digital currency Bitcoin is too 'libertarian' and reliant on an 'Ayn Rand schtick,' Hillary Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta said in an exchange with campaign tech aide Teddy Goff published by WikiLeaks on Tuesday."
SOURCE URL: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/bitcoin-too-libertarian-for-hillary-clinton/article/2604905


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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 1 month ago
    And it prevents the unbridled inflation of the currency that serves only banksters and looters. Can't have a currency that preserves its value for those who use it. Got to have one that lets government kick the can down the road and burden the elderly and future generations with massive debt. Meanwhile all the banksters CEOS get multimillions in bonuses and golden parachute retirement when they are let go, then they take rich positions in the Treasury dept and sign up for million dollar government pensions as they manipulate markets to benefit Goldman Sachs and the Clintons.
    Bitcoin is definitely an inferior currency.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
      I wonder if Bitcoin and its clones are fulfilling some of the functions that used to be fulfilled by gold, and what this means to the demand for gold (and the price of gold) going forward.
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      • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 1 month ago
        Maybe, but not to the extent gold is for an inflation hedge. Bitcoins price is stabilizing in that it isn't fluctuating wildly like it use to.

        Bitcoin is a great way to send gold electronically.
        I can buy gold with bitcoin. It's a great way to move digital value back to something real.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 1 month ago
        That's a very good point I hadn't thought of.

        Maybe crypto-currencies will be like the phone and mail. Those use to be the two ways to contact someone over a distance. Then came e-mail. Now there are so many services people use. Some people don't use e-mail or phone as much. They're on Skype, WhatsApp, Slack, Google Messenger, and FB. There's not one thing that everyone uses. If the gov't keeps borrowing and it leads to a monetary crisis, I could see people just abandoning the USD. Agreements would be in USD but indexed to other currencies or futures contracts. It would be confusing but would save the economy. In this scenario, central bank currencies would stay around like the Plain Old Telephone Service (POTS), obsolete and slowly becoming too expensive to maintain given dwindling usage.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
    One thing that still bugs me about bitcoin, however, is that it - like all others - is also a fiat currency with no backing. I think that fundamentally it could be less susceptible to political meddling (unlike the Federal Reserve), but that detail still bugs me.
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    • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
      Definitely not fiat currency. The backing is 100% natural supply and demand. The supply is already set and cannot change (after the set amount has been fully mined). Demand is determined simply by those who choose to use it.

      No government can have any control over it since there is nothing centralized about it. The only way a government could stop it within it's own borders would be to completely shut down access to internet and cell phone service.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
        I think you confuse the issue of fiat and government-backed. They are different things. I agree that governments can't control bitcoin and I love that aspect of things. Fiat currency, however, is that for which there is no physical commodity backing. Bitcoin can not be redeemed in any physical commodity, therefore by definition it is fiat currency.
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        • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
          I think you may be confused with the definition of fiat currency.

          Definition-

          "Fiat money is a currency established as money by government regulation or law. The term derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done", "it shall be") used in the sense of an order or decree. It differs from commodity money and representative money."

          In the case of Bitcoin, we are talking about an actual commodity money. Yes the commodity is derived from electricity and computing power, but it still has value if people believe it has value. While gold can be useful in certain manufacturing aspects, it is not the most efficient mineral to be used in any particular case. It has value because people have decided to give it value. No different than Bitcoin.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
            "it still has value if people believe it has value."

            Bingo. To me, because it has no physical backing, they could fold up shop (or get shut down by a government) and I'm hosed. Just like I will be in twenty years when our debt crushes us... Wait a minute... ;)
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            • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
              Haha! Yes, but it is the people who use it that get to decide if it has value, not a government entity. There is no "they" that can fold up shop. There is no shop. It is thousands (eventually millions) of computers worldwide that is the "shop". A government cannot shut down Bitcoin, only make it a little harder for someone within their own country to access it. It would take a permanent global electric grid collapse for Bitcoin to be "shut down". I can guarantee you that fiat currency would have no value by that point, and gold would probably have little to no value either. Water and bullets. ;)
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    • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 1 month ago
      That is not accurate. Why does gold have value?
      It's rare and limited, it takes work to mine it, it has recognized value.
      The same is true with Bitcoin, it to is rare and limited, it requires work to mine it, and it has a recognized trade value.
      Both are fungible, immutable, and tangible.
      I can buy gold with bitcoin, and vice-versa.
      Fiat is just created out of thin air, and its value is based on faith in a gov't
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      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
        You can only buy gold with bitcoin if the person with the gold believes in the value of bitcoin. That is the very definition of a fiat currency, is it not? Gold is not only useful as a representation of wealth, but it has actual physical uses. It has extrinsic as well as intrinsic value.

        I'm not trying to say that bitcoin isn't valuable. I'm just pointing out that it exists only ethereally. There is nothing tangible about it.
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        • Posted by RobertFl 8 years, 1 month ago
          Literally, I can buy gold with bitcoin.
          Provident Metals (there are a few others as well) accept bitcoin.

          It doesn't have to intangible. You can print it out (called a paper wallet) and give it to someone. You can also drop that piece of paper on the ground and lose it just as you a dollar or a coin.

          >That is the very definition of a fiat currency

          Yes, our problem is we replaced golds value with trust.
          If Bitcoin got pegged to gold - then it would be an electronic form of gold
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        • Posted by $ TomB666 8 years, 1 month ago
          My thoughts exactly. Gold is useful in electronic applications for one thing. While I was stationed (with the USAF) at McDonnell-Douglas I saw a rocket booster motor that had a very think sheet of gold covering some of its electronics. Some windshields had a thin sheet of gold that, when electricity was applied, defrosted the windshield. (Gold can be beat so thin you can see through it.)
          It would have lots of other uses were it not so hard to acquire - thus the reason it is expensive. Because bitcoin has no use other then as a medium of exchange (even if the supply is limited) I do not trust it to hold its value. To be money a commodity has to have three characteristics: "The main functions of money are as a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value." While bitcoin could serve these functions if there were some way to insure that it remained a store of value, given that there are no other uses of bitcoin (as there are gold) its value depends entirely on the willingness of others to accept it in exchange for something of value to them. Unlike other forms of money, bitcoin is not a useful commodity.

          Source: Boundless. “Functions of Money.” Boundless Business. Boundless, 08 Aug. 2016. Retrieved 20 Oct. 2016 from https://www.boundless.com/business/te...
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        • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
          However, that is no different than saying water is a currency. Gold has little value in any manufacturing sense. There are much better conductors of electricity. Gold only has value because people think it is pretty. The tangibility of gold is about as relevant as the tangibility of firewood. It's all relative. As long as there is electricity, Bitcoin will have value.
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          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
            There was a really bad B-movie called "Ice Pirates" where water was money. I'd actually argue that water is a very reasonable commodity of trade and value, as life itself depends on it, so your example isn't necessarily as far-fetched as it may initially seem to you. I live in the western US and water rights are a huge deal out here.

            You may not be aware of this, but gold is incredibly useful in computer electronics. Most leads connecting a microprocessor use gold because it is a great conductor of electricity and can be pulled into very small wires. Yes, it is pretty and rare, but people also put it on cakes (weird people with money to burn).

            "It's all relative."

            Ultimately, all value is.
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            • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
              GREAT MOVIE! Yes, I agree with everything you are saying here. Water is probably the ultimate currency if we stop and think about it, other than perhaps Oxygen...

              I think we both would agree that fiat currency is complete B.S. and is only good as long as a government exists to back it. I would argue that Bitcoin definitely does not fall into that category of fiat currency, however. It is a commodity, just a rather strange one, perhaps like tulip bulbs...
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              • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 1 month ago
                It is not a standard, that is to say, government-backed fiat currency, I agree, which is why I can palate the idea of it at all.

                What I would think might be interesting is to see a banking system similar to what existed before the Federal Reserve took control: a system where government couldn't control money at all and regional banks had to literally compete for their value in the market. If bitcoin leads to that kind of system, I'm all in!
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                • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
                  That is surprisingly similar to how Bitcoin works with the different exchanges and online storage wallets, however you also have the option of storing it offline on a piece of paper or USB key. You never have to rely on a bank that way. You can rely entirely on your own storage solution. The online storage solutions compete to give you peace of mind for your storage solutions, not unlike how banks used to compete for your peace of mind on which bank in which to store your "gold" money. So really Bitcoin is the best of both worlds. You can pay someone to help you protect your Bitcoin or you can risk doing it yourself and have autonomous control of your own money. The government can never have ultimate control over your money though.

                  Not to mention, there are several other types of digital currency like Litecoin and Etherium that compete with Bitcoin. You could look a those as different banks in the same way.
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                  • Posted by $ 8 years ago
                    I'm wondering how many competitors the market could bear, and how an increasing number of bitcoin "clones" would affect the value of all of them. In principle there is no limit to the number of digital currencies that could be launched.
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                    • Posted by unitedlc 8 years ago
                      I know there have been many dozen different "alt-coins" developed over the years, maybe hundreds. They have pretty much all failed to get any permanent popularity other than perhaps Etherium. But, yes, there is no limit to the number of market entries, however all of the new ones don't seem to affect the price of Bitcoin (the grandfather of them all). It would be like trying to get people to stop buying Kleenex brand tissues.
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                      • Posted by $ 8 years ago
                        Hard to tell what the price of Bitcoin would be if it did not have any competitors. Branding is important, but there are physical and logistical barriers to entry for Kleenex (which does have significant competitors) that don't exist for Bitcoin competitors. This gives it added risk in my book.
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  • Posted by dukem 8 years, 1 month ago
    I have my several years old black baseball camp with "Who Is John Galt" emblazoned on it, courtesy of the Galt's Gulch store. I get lots of funny looks in this increasingly liberal (and stupid) community. Depending on how glass eyed and slack jawed the questioners is, I attempt to indicate it's a character in a novel called "Atlas Shrugged" and they are either interested at that point, or they have that look in their eyes that indicates they are about to call security or run away screaming.
    Hey, it passes the time until Armageddon.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 1 month ago
    This is at least the third mention of Ayn Rand by either Clinton or Trump in the last few days! Perhaps we are starting to get through!
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    • Posted by Tassie 8 years, 1 month ago
      We may be getting through to a politician or two, but so far I haven't noticed any regular leftist seeing eye to eye with us. I surely do hope you are right, but I remain doubtful.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 1 month ago
      Her philosophy is becoming more widely known even if not widely accepted, judging by the casual use of her name in an offhand comment by Hillary's campaign manager.
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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 8 years ago
    I'm a techie and MA economist (NYU). Not sure I'm at all sold in Bitcoin as real money, but regardless: "Ayn Rand Schlick"? Gimme A break. I'm sure there are Obectivist advocates for Bitcoin, but IMO it's appeal is to free-marketers in general.

    Of course using AR in an ad hominem attack is always convenient for LibProgs.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years ago
      I'm also a techie and MA economist (UNLV, home of the third [and thankfully final] presidential non-debate). I'm also not a Bitcoin enthusiast yet, but if the Dems think the digital currency is "too libertarian" it might be worth a closer look.
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      • Posted by MinorLiberator 8 years ago
        Hey, thanks for the comment. I get your comment about something being "too libertarian" as worth looking into. But in that case, then so would "anarcho-capitalism", which is certainly libertarian, but as non-Objectivist as Marxism.

        I reserve judgment on Bitcoin, pending further research. But my current reservations are mainly that it's "value" is totally subjective, and not based in reality, as opposed to say, gold is. As far as being able to print a paper receipt, as I've seen in some comments, I fail to see how that is in any way different than any other fiat paper currency backed with nothing. But, I am always open to further research, and would like to hear feedback on links etc. to the best objective articles arguing that Bitcoin is, or could one day be, accepted as a true universal medium of exchange.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years, 1 month ago
    Bitcoin too "libertarian"?!--I am no great fan of the
    Internet (though perhaps Galt's Daily Gulch is a
    redeeming feature), and I don't understand very
    well the concept of "digital currency". I don't see
    much "libertarian" or "Ayn Rand" about it. I like
    physical, cash money. Gold would be nice, also
    silver, but paper dollars would be all right if they
    had the proper metal in back of them. I'm not
    even too fond of checks. When I have to send
    money through the mail, I generally send a mon-
    ey order.
    It would be nice if the government were for-
    bidden to print money, and it were done by priv-
    ate companies, who would be subject to being
    charged with fraud if they misrepresented the
    weight/amount of metal in back of their bills/notes.--And then, perhaps the government
    should be permitted to print some money--
    some sort of government paper scrip, to pay
    the armed service personnel, with a certain a-
    mount of weight/metal printed on the front of
    the bills/notes, guaranteed.
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    • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
      I think if you understood digital currency better you would be a fan from what you are writing. What makes it Libertarian is that it takes the power of government, banks, etc., out of determining the value of currency. The value is decided 100% by the users of the currency. It is truly a natural supply and demand currency, which doesn't exist anymore with government backed currency manipulation.

      Bitcoin can actually even be printed into physical form, but nobody would want to accept it without first verifying it is legitimate with an internet connection.

      The great things about Bitcoin are: 1. There is only so much of it and never will be more than a certain amount. It cannot be changed (no new money printing). 2. It cannot be counterfeited. 3. No single entity controls it at all. Hundreds of thousands (or millions) of users control it at the same time. It is a simple set of rules that cannot be broken. It really is something incredible.
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      • Posted by LibertyBelle 8 years ago
        Is it actually anything physical? Is it metal? And
        if so, what metal? Gold,silver, copper, platinum,
        tin? Can you hold it in your hand?

        I like things to be real. I don't even like when
        magazines want me to give up printed copies
        in favor getting copies sent over the Internet,
        things which can come and just vanish, and
        be wiped out with a button.--But you're right if
        you think I don't understand digital currency.
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      • Posted by $ 8 years ago
        My main concern is, what are the barriers to entry for other digital currencies? A few other dc's exist now, but in principle there could be an unlimited number of Bitcoin competitors with features and advantages equivalent to those you described above.
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  • Posted by DeanStriker 8 years, 1 month ago
    I view the article as little more than the usual political trivia. For however long as we "humans" allow ourselves to be Ruled by Force, this entire spectrum of the issues bestowed upon all will continue ad nauseum.
    I do believe that BitCoin is a commendable effort toward wresting control of "money" from the Rulers to the individuals. It's a part of the rush to a digital world, in which nothing is real, and the gibberish of so-called "smart" phones is taking over.
    For example, when the Great Global Collapse finally hits, will the Rulers pull the plug? Then will we continue to have electricity paid for with blips in the cyberworld?
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    • Posted by Tassie 8 years, 1 month ago
      I would guess, from many discussions with others that eventually we will be living in the same type world as did the Neanderthals, bartering to meet our needs. Disgusting in that all this mess is caused by BIG GOVERNMENT.
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  • Posted by Blanco 8 years, 1 month ago
    Call me old-fashioned, but I like to have REAL money that I can hold in my hand and easily transport if I need to move. That is spelled G-O-L-D.
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    • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
      While I too like gold, there is nothing more real about it than Bitcoin. Gold has value because people believe it has value. It's usefulness in manufacturing is rather moot at best. Bitcoin has value because people believe it has value. If we had a global thermonuclear war, lost all electricity on the planet, and people were scrambling for fresh water and food, then obviously Bitcoin would have no value, but gold would probably have no value as well. Water and bullets would probably be the currency-du-jour.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 1 month ago
        "Bitcoin would have no value"
        I agree. All value is in people serving one another and making things for one another in mutual trades. We need to work together and serve one another to live. As it says in AS, you can make that happen under threats or let people do it voluntarily using money, there are no other ways.
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        • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 1 month ago
          Hmmm... not sure I agree with your statement, "we need to work together and serve one another to live." I understand that you clarified that it should be voluntary, but I still don't think working together and serving is a necessity at all. A single person can survive on a desert island. Is it nice to have others to work with to help accomplish multiple goals simultaneously and spread specialties around? Of course. But it isn't necessary to live. It only helps speed up the process of quality of life.
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