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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 5 months ago
    The "Under God addition does turn the pledge into a prayer and is entirely unnecessary. It is a useless 5th limb that was added to show the difference between America and the godless USSR. Otherwise, Red is totally correct and there is no doubt about his unabashed patriotism.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      If you search on YouTube you can find Tom Snyder's interview with Ayn Rand. She accepted the common intention of "God bless America" wherein God means the best or the highest.

      In that sense, I point out that by our military customs, no flag ever flies higher than the American flag, except the chaplain's flag (while services are being held). The meaning is that the government is subject to a higher law. I think that you agree with that.
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      • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
        If it was the flag of the constitution or of reason, then I'd agree with it. Subjecting it to the Flying Spaghetti Monster's whims is foolishness.
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
          Although you and I are both atheists, we apparently differ in our expressions of non-belief. You must be aware of the fact that the engaged atheist community has abandoned the Flying Spaghetti Monster as having outlived his usefulness. The time is long since here for better arguments.

          Even the Bible is nuanced. Paul of Tarshish ("Saint Paul") said in his book "Epistle to the Romans" (simplyt the book called "Romans") that our rulers are put here on Earth by God. It is our duty to obey them as we obey our heavenly Father. That injunction contradicted 3500 years of teachings. From Kings
          to the Maccabees, the Bible is a continuing narrative of resistance to secular rules in the name of Holy Law. That appears in mundane form in Atlas Shrugged.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
    I still think of the Pledge as an abdication of your self, your mind, your individuality, and everything else that goes along with that to not just the state and it's controls, but to a symbol of that state. None of which, IMO, is proper for an Objectivist... aka an egoist, a radical capitalist, a fighter for not just the rights, but the heroic and moral place of the individual, to support.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 5 months ago
      It is an abdication of patriotism which is an individual's love for the USA as a land of liberty and worthy to fight to keep. The pledge is an attempt to force patriotism on mainly children who have not yet developed the power of critical thought, the same as many religious parents do to young children.
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    • Posted by CTYankee 8 years, 5 months ago
      No, it's not an abdication, it is a statement of affirmation. Because I a sovereign individual state that I am an ally of the "United States of America" -- not necessarily the corrupt and occupying government which is in the process of destroying the union of those states.

      When I was a small boy {sorry}, each year the school principal would play a record of this over the PA system, and we would then discuss what we heard and what it meant to us.

      It was annoying that so many of my contemporaries failed to listen, failed to comprehend, and failed to participate in the ensuing discussions.

      Anyone who equivocates "Flag" with 'government' 'leader', 'ruler' or any specific individual or office, has missed the point. Just as the "Republic" is not the the representatives who have lead the nation astray for their personal gratification, the republic is the process which what is supposed to protect the people from the government.

      I've been raised to fury at the weak and selfish men who occupy the offices of the republic, as any man of good faith should be. But my goal is to punish the specific evil-doers, not wipe away the framework that allows men of good conscience and disparate viewpoints to coexist in harmony.

      That's why I pledge.

      And because I'm a (small 'a') atheist, I simply pause when the two words added are spoken by the rest.
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      • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
        I understand your point, and it's a good one! But I have to reiterate that pledging allegiance is not the same as saying you support and idea or are an ally of a concept. It's root is in the concept of a liege lord, someone or something to which you give unquestioning obedience. No one and no thing has my allegiance. They have my support only so far as they can argue for it, and only on a case by case basis.
        Allegiance, in the way that it not only was originally conceived but historically has been used, is the same as unconditional love in this respect. Unconditional love destroys the concept of love altogether, because to love is to value and valuing a virtue and a vice equally defies the law of cause and effect. It raises the vice and destroys the virtue.
        If I am to take a pledge, it will be this:
        "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I shall never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
        That is a promise that I will make. Not to a country, a Country, a republic, a Republic, etc.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 5 months ago
        It is a pretense at patriotism. Oaths, flags, most patriotic celebrations, etc. are not patriotism. Most of those are because of what some who would want to rule you, say you should do to be patriotic. Really, almost none are patriotic. Here is an article which might be closer to what patriotism is:

        https://fee.org/articles/the-true-mea...
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        • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 5 months ago
          Substitute "reverent" for "patriotic" and this is a good description of organized religions, too. They're mostly theater -- a way for stuffed shirts to boast of how pious they are. Makes me think of the repeated oaths in Catch-22. So does the Pledge.

          Also, the pledge only dates from the 20th century. The US had by then already lost most of its worthiness to be so adored.
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          • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 5 months ago
            I remember the pledge as being late 19th century?
            The religious part was added in mid 1950s, about when I was 14 and still required to pretend to repeat the god part. When something becomes a tradition, it loses any real human purpose other than some small left over evolutionary survival of the fittest so that those who need a sign of trustfulness can feel good.
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          • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
            I have to disagree on several grounds. I do agree 100% that patriotism can be a kind of religion: my country right or wrong; Gott mit Uns. I get that. But Ayn Rand delineated a kind of rational patriotism wherein you identify the fact that no nation is freer, no place more deserving of your allegiance. If you need references to Ayn Rand on this, I can help. I suggest that you begin with her speech to the US Military Academy at West Point, "Philosophy: Who Needs It."

            Beyond that, some people will stuff their shirts with whatever is handy. Right now, I serve with a good team, but I can think of one staff officer for whom the label "martinet" applies. So, too with religion. One time, as a result of a talk that I gave, I was invited to the Methodist church in the small town where we lived. So, one time, the Church Teens usher takes me to back row pew. (No one wants to sit down front, right?) But I see the president of the Men's Club down there and in a church whisper loud enough for everyone to hear, I say, "No, I want to sit down front with the hypocrites and Pharisees." And he turns around, smiles, and waves me down front to sit with him and his family.

            No stuffed shirts there that day... Church is for sinners who need Salvation. Some understand that; others do not.

            But I am still an atheist and that church was only so fulfilling for so long.

            On religion, while Sunnis kills Shiites (the current most popular atrocities, replacing Catholics vs. Protestants in Northern Ireland, and besting even the Palestinians vs.Israel), you never saw Heisenbergers killing Einsteinians. Physics is about reality. So the truth is easier to obtain.

            I get that.

            But over all, there are good people and bad people in just about any random group, religionists, communists, or Objectivists.
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      • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
        If, for some reason, the flag changed - which it did, many times - would that revoke your previous pledges.

        The changes then were just a rearrangement of the stars. (You see them in cowboy movies: http://creativeroots.org/wp-content/u...

        But what if it completely changed? Would that revoke your pledge to the flag. (I accept that you also pledged allegiance to the republic for which the flag stands. However, the conjunction there is "and". Both must be true for the statement to be true.
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 5 months ago
      Never saw the Flag as a symbol of the "state". It is a symbol of an idea, a hard fought idea in the name of Mankind whom seeks to rule one's self.
      The pledge, may have been a progressive swearing of allegiance to a their idea of a state. I always saw it as a pledge, in appreciation, of the opportunity, to engage in this hard fought for, "American" Idea.
      I think many of us, thought the same; if this is true, then the progressives loose.
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      • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
        I agree that ideas and intents can change over time! You make a great point Carl. But I still stand by my point that it is a pledge of "allegiance" which means unquestioning fealty, and specifically the very next line is "and to the republic for which it stands." The flag, according to the text of the pledge, stands for the republic, which itself is the government and the state.
        This is very similar to the entire concept that John F. Kennedy promoted of "ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country." In this scenario, both requests or demands are wrong. "The country" does not exist as a source of goodies for us, and we do not exist to serve it.
        I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that a pledge to anything other than ones self creates a duty to others, an unchosen obligation to them. We cannot pledge allegiance to an idea because ideas are not conscious and therefore cannot have values, needs, or interests. Allegiance implies taking actions towards the ends desired by that to which you are pledging such allegiance. We can only take actions to support things that have real physical existence. That is why the "war on terror and "is such a failure. You cannot fight ideas, only those who follow them. When you pledge allegiance to an idea, you were pledging allegiance to those people who control (or possibly follow) that idea. If the idea is "the republic" then what is being requested of you is unquestioning fealty to those who run the republic.

        And one final thing, which I feel with much less conviction then the rest of what I said before, but I thought it was worth mentioning anyway is that I do not agree that "many of us" changing the way we feel about the pledge will actually erase the original meaning of the pledge. Just like many people feel differently about the meaning of the Second Amendment, but that does not change its actual meaning. Like I said, this is a much lesser point, but I thought it was worth mentioning my opinion.
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        • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 5 months ago
          To have ideas...one requires a mind. To have a mind, one Must be Conscious and Thoughts can represent intent. So, if I pledge with the intent to align with an idea...it is so...and progressives still loose.

          I agree with your argument, But that's why it makes no difference to me what progressives and their allegiances mean to them, because my intent is 180 opposed the theirs.
          We can play the "Language" game too.
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          • Posted by JohnConnor352 8 years, 5 months ago
            Yeah no point in playing games with each other. I was just attempting to stick to reality as much as possible and avoid the popular mysticism of both the left and the right.
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            • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 5 months ago
              Not games between each other, but language games with those that have confounded our language...that's what progressives do, but we know the Real meaning of words and concepts.

              caution:...won't work in a "progressive" court of law.
              [SAD]
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      I agree with that. I posted Skelton's Pledge for a couple of reasons. (See above to khalling.) The first thing that grabbed me was his insistence on "I". He made it explicit, as he did the entire Pledge. He was an intelligent self-made man and his patriotism was conceptually-based, not merely traditional, as was, for instance, John Wayne's.

      The Pledge of Allegiance was written by Francis Bellamy a Christian socialist. (Nice tribute to him and the Pledge on Huffington Post here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-d....

      I think that the current flap over kneeling for the National Anthem is a similar false dichotomy for which an Objectivist would have a different, albeit patriotic, answer.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 5 months ago
    Never saw the Flag as a symbol of the "state". It is a symbol of an idea, a hard fought idea in the name of Mankind whom seeks to rule one's self.

    The pledge, may have been a progressive swearing of allegiance to a their idea of a state. I always saw it as a pledge, in appreciation, of the opportunity, to engage in this hard fought for, "American" Idea.

    As for the addition, "Under God"...I fear not the mystical for the greater understanding of the phrase...which may actually express appreciation of the unlikely hood of the establishment of any country, so brazen, to dare put the people in control of their own lives, something we still battle in favor of today...with that wish for All mankind..."Justice for All".

    I think many of us, thought the same; if this is true, then the progressives loose. Will we ever win this battle?
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  • Posted by Marty_Swinney 8 years, 5 months ago
    Growing up in Los Angeles (not Pasadena!), I always looked forward to The Red Skelton Show. Then I discovered a curious relationship: My father's cousin was married to a woman who was also cousin to Red Skelton's wife! They would visit frequently with the Skelton's, and his wife would usually give them some of her clothing that she no longer wanted. I wanted to go with them one day, but my father died before that could happen and I never saw those cousins again. "Ain't it funny," as the song goes, "how time slips away."
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  • Posted by khalling 8 years, 5 months ago
    I like this, but I am curious to why you posted this with no context, considering the history of the Pledge. Please, can you give me personal context? cuz I think we'd be on the same page on this
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      I think that it speaks for itself. For one thing, he said that he had only a 7th grade education, still typical for his time (born 1913). He was a self-admitted clown. However, his genius and hard work are clear to anyone else who has achieved individual success.

      Skelton's humor was in some ways like that of Danny Thomas and a few others who found an uplifting way to bring laughs, different from sarcasm and put-downs.

      "At the time of his death, his art dealer believed that Skelton had earned more money through his paintings than from his television work.

      "Skelton believed his life's work was to make people laugh; he wanted to be known as a clown because he defined it as being able to do everything."
      -- Wikipedia here:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ske...
      but much more on the dedicated site here:
      http://www.redskelton.com/

      So, it is to be expected that he had deep thoughts about patriotism. His beliefs may not be yours or mine, but he was explicitly conceptual in them.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
      ... that all being as it is, I agree with you that the Pledge of Allegiance was part of a progressive agenda. The progressives of that time were like the neo-conservatives of ours.
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      • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 5 months ago
        Actually it was due to a preacher who did not think people were patriotic enough back in the late 1800s. Then came the flag in every school movement. The original salute to the flag was the same as the Nazi salute and changed when the Nazis came into power because it did not look patriotic in that political climate. None of that stuff was actually patriotic, just a way to rid people of patriotism, just as today with flags as big as football fields, and all the other trappings put upon the people by some who like to pretend that they are in control.
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 5 months ago
          The Nazis just took the Roman salute. It was also the Olympic salute. But your deeper point is valid: all of them, from the Romans to the Nazis subordinated the individual to the state. As I pointed out the pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian socialist who, as you know, sought to overturn individualism and capitalism. See my earlier post:
          https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...

          You can google Francis Bellamy and the Pledge and find many links, among them, of course Wikipedia.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 5 months ago
    Thanks for posting. That's how few Americans actually recite the Pledge nowadays - with heartfelt meaning, honor, and dignity. Our nation isn't what it once was because it has abandoned a dedication to the principles of liberty and justice for all, but I still believe in the correctness of the principle.
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