10

Classical Wisdom asks: Where Does Morality Come From?

Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 2 months ago to Philosophy
53 comments | Share | Flag

The referenced article contains an interesting look at morality from a classical perspective. The author then asks for readers to chime in. Some here might be interested. aleonard@classicalwisdom.net
SOURCE URL: http://click2.classicalwisdom.net/v/Gw/8g/AYQ/Mhk/ARk/AA/AA/EsWE


Add Comment

FORMATTING HELP

All Comments Hide marked as read Mark all as read

  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 2 months ago
    Here is a simple way to look at morality. In any action will the end result, if taken to extreme, end in life or death. Using life to represent all things good, and death representing all things bad. Example: Saving money for a secure retirement. Good, therefore moral. Overspending to the point of dependence, bad therefore immoral. One can easily see how, if taken to extremes one is pro life while the other leads to unhappiness and death.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
    When Scientology first appeared, I took the time to read Dianetics, L. Ron Hubbard's exercise in establishing morality without divine direction. Hubbard described a "tree of survival" beginning with the need for the individual to secure its own survival, and stepping up to family, tribe, national, and species survival. At each point on the tree, Hubbard postulated an expanding necessity for ever more complex moral behavior. However this evolved to the bizarre cult that Scientology became, I have no idea, but it was a credible effort.

    Adam Smith, best known as the father of capitalism, based on his Wealth of Nations tome, also took a stab at a natural derivation for morality in his less well known book, The Theory of Moral Sentiments. Like Hubbard, Smith sought to present a credible argument that moral behavior was a result of constructive social interaction that promoted the well being of the "good" individual. That's especially interesting when we recall Smith was the son of a minister, and very pious himself.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Solver 8 years, 2 months ago
      He (Hubbard) probably figured that nothing was more moral than protecting Scientology by any means necessary. This is the same basic justification that all would be dictators use. Respecting the rights of individuals always seems to be lost with these radicals.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago
    Morality in its general sense is the body of acceptable actions and principles as applied to an individual or culture. But what many forget is that all moralities have in mind a goal or outcome which must be either substantiated or not before the individual principles may in turn be considered sound. The moralities of fascism, socialism, democracy, monarchy, theism, atheism, etc. all have their attending principles and general morality that in large part are separate and distinct as a large result of where they lead. So if you want to examine any particular moral philosophy, look first at its goals for they will determine the rest.
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago
      "Don't bother to examine a folly — ask yourself only what it accomplishes".
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago
        If it doesn't accomplish something of value to the individual, it isn't worth pursuing, wouldn't you agree?
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago
          No, it depends on identifying conceptually the proper standard for what is of value to the individual, not hedonism, Pragmatism, Utilitarianism, etc.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago
            Value in and of itself always must be evaluated against an alternative - even if it is a standard. Value inherently is comparison and comparison can not exist with only one thing. A goal is nothing more than the conceptual idea of a present state and a future state. So even if they are visualizations, they constitute two separate and distinct states against which comparison and valuation may take place.

            Philosophy is all about goals and ideals: what should be (a goal) and what presently exists. Time is merely a measurement for discerning different states of the same being or object - one being a present incarnation and another being a future possibility. But without a future possibility, there is no progress - no movement away from present towards future. Stasis. Standards are all about goals and the process of goal attainment.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Ed75 8 years, 2 months ago
      The principles of the various social systems have nothing to do with "being moral". What you see is simply the result of not identifying the underlying premises behind any particular belief system. Being moral is a choice made by individual humans, not groups, tribes, or cults.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago
        You have misconstrued my argument. There is "morality" ( a noun meaning any particular set of principles as embodied in a philosophy) and then there is "moral" (an adjective describing one's evaluation of any particular principle or over-arching philosophy as adhering to some defined standard). To evaluate something as being "moral", you are simply saying that according to one's personal belief system, such-and-such action furthers the goal of a particular morality. A Fascist will hold that his acts are entirely "moral" from his viewpoint, as will any other philosopher! The only way to really start objectively evaluating any philosophy or moral system is to first identify the end goal of such (collectively or individually) and then determine what specific policies and principles will best further attainment of that goal.

        Now one of the principles used by those in this forum is the principle of logical derivation and we hold that this is an integral part of a true philosophy. To that end, we evaluate various competing philosophies and principles according to whether or not they are logically valid and logically sound, but we must recognize that we are making these evaluations through the lens of logic as a cardinal principle.

        "Being moral is a choice made by individual humans, not groups, tribes, or cults."

        "Being moral" is not the issue at all and I am not implying that choices are made collectively. I am pointing out that anyone can claim that their philosophy is "moral". It is a meaningless statement until one has first correctly identified the goal. Only after one has this can one begin to establish principles in furtherance of that goal.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago
          You can examine it to see what it accomplishes, but moral codes often are not framed that way about themselves. In particular the duty ethics of Kant says to do it because it's your duty, for no ends. What that "accomplishes" is destruction consisting of suspension of reason and causality and the obliteration of morality and its role and necessity in human life.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago
            And through examining the goal of a philosophy or morality - just as you point out with Kant - we can learn much about the philosophy itself. But having no end goal is just as telling as having the goal to dominate all other people on the planet.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by Ed75 8 years, 2 months ago
          I had no intention of misconstruction. I was simply trying to be very clear. Hidden in the concept of morality are three other words that travel with it. They are, of course, moral, value, and principle. I can not do nearly as good a job discussing this as can David Kelly. Please see the essay below posted by khalling.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago
            But that was the point of the post - not to rehash what others have said but to contribute ourselves. I've read the essay and I'm not interested in rehashing what others have said - anyone can do that. Thinking is an individual effort. We can use what others have said to bolster our own arguments, but we first must start with our own arguments!
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
    Rand's Ethics starts from a biological system. Every animal has some "ethics" just not conscious Ethics like Man. Morality is a necessary fact for any living organism. For humans, we do not have a genetically determined morality or knowledge. With other organisms, it is genetically determined (obviously there are variations and levels)
    Reply | Mark as read | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by dwlievert 8 years, 2 months ago
      The precondition for the concept of morality is choice. The choice to act destructively versus productively - productively defined as of benefit to the life of the biological entity acting.

      Without the concept of choice, morality has no rational meaning. It becomes, as Rand (Branden?) cited, a "stolen concept."

      Biological entities that lack the power of choice act on instinct. When said instinct is inadequate to deal with the reality confronting the entity, it dies - but it NEVER fails to act on its instinct(s). It lacks the capacity to derive ethics (morality).

      I am not "quibbling" with you khalling, just being more precise. MORALITY IS THE KEY PHILOSOPHICAL ISSUE THAT IS PRECIPITATING THE LOSS OF OUR POLITICAL HERITAGE OF INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago
        Instinct may not exist. It implies some kind of built in knowledge which guides an organisms life. So far, there has been no instinct discovered, it is all physical actions due to chemical responses, tropisms, due to chemical or photo produced actions, etc. Knowledge implies some form of rational mind to recall and process the stored memories/knowledge.

        The key philosophical issue is whether rational beings are to be considered as individuals who act due to there individual minds or whether they are to be defined as members of some collective with their individualism directed by the collective. The answer to which is the objective case in reality will direct how the science of ethics defines morality. The former points to the choice of morality and the latter to the destruction of individual choice, of morality.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
        thank you. that is why I call it Metaethics. and biological organisms have choice, just at a genetic level. I am not arguing a volitional level. but a trees' roots make a choice. If they did not, all organisms would be the same. I don't see stolen concept here, I can find Rand on point, I was trying to avoid direct quotes, as I take some criticism over not stating these ideas in my own words
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago
          Since the whole reason for this forum is about Rand and her Objectivism, I would think that short illustrative quotes would be welcome here.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
            I'm glad you appreciate them. :)
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago
              That way those who post here might learn what Objectivism is all about and that what they have heard and believed might need some rethinking. It might even clear up the issue of open and closed Objectivism. I happen to be for open Objectivism but do enjoy Peikoff's works I especially liked "The Ominous Parallels" but can see that that might not go over well with the more religious of the Conservatives who might post here. I am reading DIM but, not being a philosopher, I am finding it boring.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by dwlievert 8 years, 2 months ago
          No criticism intended.

          I am in the throes of writing a book on philosophy, with a riveted focus on morality and its inescapable consequence, politics. I am therefore "sensitive" to using precise concepts.

          For your perspective I am attaching the book's introduction as it now exists.

          Dave

          THE FUTURE THAT AWAITS
          I begin this intellectual journey with two powerful and relevant quotations. The first comes from a giant, perhaps THE giant of our founding.

          "Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason and the mind becomes a wreck." --Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to James Smith.

          The second comes from a contemporary source. One, it might be claimed, thought to be an especially arrogant one.

          At the conclusion of the Constitutional Convention in 1787, this arrogant contemporary imagines himself present as one of the representatives from the colonies. He is addressing the collection of delegates which represent the greatest gathering of enlightened political thinkers of the time – perhaps at any time in history.

          “Gentlemen: The political institutions you envision and have fashioned do not have the moral foundation to secure the sanctity of the ideals stated in Mr. Jefferson’s marvelous Declaration. Specifically, one cannot argue on behalf of a human beings right to their own life, creating political institutions to then secure same, while at the same time accepting a morality that a human being has a universal higher moral obligation to live their life in service to some other purpose, either to other human beings, or an imagined higher entity or abstraction. This tirelessly repeated moral prescription has destroyed whatever individual rights may have been temporarily recognized in past societies without exception. In the absence of a proper moral defense of these rights, this body’s unprecedented attempt at their political consecration shall become doomed as well.” – David Walden, August 12, 2012.

          This book is my attempt to demonstrate the moral foundation necessary to reverse America’s destruction. Destruction made inescapable by the inevitable political erosion of that which, lacking a proper moral foundation, was but temporarily bequeathed to the world by America’s founders.

          Dave walden
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
    • Posted by Ed75 8 years, 2 months ago
      To be moral, one must act in support of his best interest. (Man at his highest potential) Being moral is an individual choice and an individual act.
      Animals act through instinct, not making moral choices, but automatically reacting to their natural needs. Humans are the only living creature that can chose to act against his nature, resulting in an immoral act. Morality is the process of choosing to be moral or not.
      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
        Human hubris at work as usual. Research and observation has shown that many animals make what we regard as moral choices, including charity, sacrifice, respect, honor, etc. To conclude that those arise merely from instinct implies that we also act only from instinct.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
          you are making the classic mistake (we all do it) of ascribing human characteristics to a non-human-anthropomorphic
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
            When a human runs back into a burning building to save her child at risk of her own life, you call this a moral decision. When a mother cat runs back repeatedly into a burning building to save her kittens, incurring terrible burns at risk of her life, you call this "instinct." I don't think I'm the one confused.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
              the species of cat has a genetic choice. they can't rewire themselves. They are not born tabla rasa as humans are.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
                Animals learn new things, so they do "rewire" themselves. Humans are simply more complex animals, with a broader range of things that impinge on our choices. We do spend an inordinately ridiculous amount of time trying to prove some mystical, god-like separation between ourselves and lesser beings.I suspect that's driven by personal feelings of insecurity. The divide between anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic is synthetic, as we are on the same genetic spectrum, with the differences between ourselves and other animals not always as distinct as some of us are comfortable with.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago
                  All depends on the degree of rationality of the animal. Some thinkers want to define ethics and morality on what looks like altruistic actions by some non-humans without taking into account the nature of humans and their necessity for making individual choices. Learning and morality are not the same thing. My several cats have started to torment one an other. To me it looks like they are having fun doing it. But they may have just learned that in certain conditions that that was behavior to do regardless as to any choice being involved.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
                    The biggest problem is in how humans define rational behavior. We approach the subject of animal intelligence with distinct prejudices. As animals that derive over 70% of our information visually, we tend to place much higher requirements for other animals to demonstrate perception and reaction on visual cues. For a canine that relies on its sense of smell for most of its perception, with the visual element a lesser player, our examinations of behavior are automatically prejudiced. For creatures that rely more on audible perception, such as porpoises, we only have a dim understanding of their perception-action cycle.

                    There also seems to be an element of fear in our assessments of animal intelligence. For some, it's an irrational fear that somehow recognizing more commonality with other animals makes us less human. For others, it's the unwillingness to accept the possibility that we eat creatures able to perceive their fate.

                    Science, which is supposedly in the wheelhouse of Objectivists, continues to disclose information about animal ability to discover, reason, and consciously act. Some of those discoveries can be unsettling, as in recognizing that animals lower on what we think of as the intelligence scale can have surprisingly sophisticated behaviors. Prairie dogs have a complex language developed as a survival defense. An octopus can solve problems with locking mechanisms faster than some humans. A variety of animals demonstrate the ability to develop problem solving skills independently and teach the next generation how to apply those skills. Simply waving off those accomplishments as instinctive, and declaring the same behavior in humans as different without sound scientific evidence doesn't seem very objective to me.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
                  animals have a limited ability to learn new things, but they are not coming up with that on their own (outside a limited experience). and they forget easily those skills which they do acquire. this is one of the problems in trying to domesticate buffalo vs sheep. Pumas do not adapt to a vegetarian diet. Humans are the only volitional animal, the only rational thinking animal. that is not "god-like", that is A is A. Reality.
                  OTOH, I think people spend a ridiculous amount of time ascribing human traits to animals and elevating animals above humans to the point of crazy mystics like over-population and animals over Man. A gorilla is not worth a human, for example-but you would not know that on social media.
                  Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
                    We are the superior species on the planet, but we have genetic commonality with most other creatures. You may find the study of crows interesting, as they demonstrate a distinct capability to solve problems without human training. Crows are not only tool users, but they also construct tools and demonstrate the ability to discover solutions to mechanical and hydraulic puzzles. Such actions are impossible without a logical thought process and a degree of reasoning. To address your point about blurring the lines between humans and animals, brain scans show that crows use an entirely different part of their brain than we do when solving problems.

                    Observing that other species demonstrate an ability to think about the world and make choices is not an attempt to ascribe human behavior to them, but to better understand them. As the superior species, the moral choice is to care for the less capable species within sensible limits.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                    • Posted by Ed75 8 years, 2 months ago
                      DrZ , Could you please expand upon your last sentence, especially the "within sensible limits"?
                      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                      • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
                        I always like to use an organization like Ducks Unlimited as one that promotes the game bird species from the perspective of self interest: no game birds, no hunting. Idiot organizations like PETA that think we should turn all of our domestic animals loose so they can be "free" have no idea of how devastating that would be to the animals they supposedly care about. My line stops where supporting lower species harms our own, as in many instances where beneficial projects are stopped because some inconsequential insect might be "endangered" (usually only in one specific area, not in danger of extinction).
                        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago
                    The problem with over population is that it may not be possible to happen. The population will probably, as in a multitude of other dynamic cases, follow the well known S curve where it starts out slowly increasing, then goes exponential, and finally slows and becomes stable in regard to resources. That has been happening in some countries with advanced economies.
                    Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
                    • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
                      only if you assume resources are a zero sum or scarcity. Invention makes that moot. 1st world will invent, 2nd then 3rd world adopts (really steals) invention that is a game changer. Think Peak guano, peak whale oil, etc...
                      Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 2 months ago
        So you are implying that if my natural instinct is to punch the person in the face who is taking too long at the soda fountain in front of me, and I choose not to, then I am committing an immoral act? Yes, I get that it might not be in my best interest to punch the person, but what if I knew without a shadow of a doubt I wouldn't have repercussions? There are no witnesses, no video camera, the person is physically weaker than me, and I know I will never see them again.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
        • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
          you are confusing so many things. 1. you do not have "natural instinct" as a human 2. you aren't describing a universal Ethics. what you are describing a personal passion or desire. there can't be one set of Ethics for you and another one for me. It is based in science. If you agree to that scenario, then you would also have to agree that you would allow someone to punch you in the face. 3. you gloss over rational self-interest. You do not understand rational self-interest by your comment above.
          Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 2 months ago
            Humans are in fact born with certain instincts, demonstrated by newborns. They range from simple reflex actions such as suckling and grasping (the latter a holdover from our ancestors for newborns clinging to the mother's fur). We instinctively seek as much information about the world around us as we can absorb as a survival mechanism, even before we're taught such things. We have an instinctive cautionary response to heights, and a natural aversion to tastes that are typical of non-edible or toxic material. We are not born a "tabula rasa" (blank slate).
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago
              They are not instincts in the sense of knowledge. They are nothing more than reflexes. Knowledge requires a mind to deal with it, not a brain without an emergent mind. Memories do not require a mind, just a bio-computer for processing and possible action dealing with them. Computer controlled machines do it all the time but cannot be said to have a mind.
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
              newborns lose those "reactions" very quickly
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 2 months ago
                I fully accept the premise that humans have evolved away from "relying" on instinct to survive, but I do not believe we have fully evolved to the point where we have lost our instinctual biology. Our species has only been relying on rational volitional thought for a very short amount of time in the big scheme of things. I unfortunately believe that Rand's ideas on how evolved man has already become may have been ahead of its time, completely explaining how 50% of the population of the U.S. can still be Democrat... ;)
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
          • Posted by unitedlc 8 years, 2 months ago
            I was simply trying to comment on Ed75 statement of humans being the only living creature that can chose to act against his nature, resulting in an immoral act. He prefaced that stating that animals automatically react to their natural needs. I don't think that we can say categorically that if a human chooses to go against his nature then it is automatically an immoral act. I'm also not convinced that humans don't have natural instinct as you stated. We are still animals, albeit with an advanced brain capable of thought beyond survival.

            We are trying to define universal ethics, and its origins. I do agree that ethics should be the same for all humans, but defining them is difficult. There is a part of me that thinks that I should not ever be surprised to be punched in the face if I am selfishly taking longer than necessary at a soda fountain while others wait. Obviously, as a rational individual, I would not want that to happen to me, nor would I do that to someone else, but where is this ethics/morality line, and how do we reconcile natural instinct and universal ethics?

            Please keep in mind, I am new to this forum, probably much less educated than most on here, and have only read a small number of Rand's writings. I am a huge fan of what I have read and learned and only trying to build an arsenal of rebuttals to questions I think I might come across in dealing with non rational people.
            Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
            • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
              ok. here is Rand on humans as volitional-not instinctual: " Man has no automatic code of survival. His particular distinction from all other living species is the necessity to act in the face of alternatives by means of volitional choice. He has no automatic knowledge of what is good for him or evil, what values his life depends on, what course of action it requires. Are you prattling about an instinct of self-preservation? An instinct of self-preservation is precisely what man does not possess. An “instinct” is an unerring and automatic form of knowledge. A desire is not an instinct. A desire to live does not give you the knowledge required for living. And even man’s desire to live is not automatic: your secret evil today is that that is the desire you do not hold. Your fear of death is not a love for life and will not give you the knowledge needed to keep it." Galt's Speech from Atlas Shrugged
              Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
              • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 2 months ago
                I understand that Rand's position is that man is a rational animal without instincts. I will admit to being dubious about this. To a degree, man is a rationalizing animal, making up rational excuses for what he wants or feels compelled to do. To a degree we are like the cat who, after doing something silly, acts like it meant to do that.
                Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  
      • Posted by khalling 8 years, 2 months ago
        every animal must make choices to survive. Morality deals with choices, objectives. ( Metaethics). DNA made the choice long ago-pre-programmed, but still a morality. But I agree with the rest of what you are saying.
        Reply | Mark as read | Parent | Best of... | Permalink  

FORMATTING HELP

  • Comment hidden. Undo