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"He [Robin Hood] is the man who became the symbol of the idea that need, not achievement, is the source of rights... " - Ragnar Danneskjöld

Posted by GaltsGulch 8 years, 2 months ago to The Gulch: General
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Happy "International Talk Like a Pirate Day!" And now, a few words from everyone's favorite pirate...

"He [Robin Hood] is the man who became the symbol of the idea that need, not achievement, is the source of rights, that we don't have to produce, only to want, that the earned does not belong to us, but the unearned does." - Ragnar Danneskjöld


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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 2 months ago
    Ah, but the truth of the matter is that Robin hood stole from those in power, the government as it were, and gave back to the people. Wealthy land owners were not value creators nor producers and neither were kings nor sheriffs.

    If one takes the misguided liberal view then yes, it was about needs.

    The people were already value creators as in: butchers, bakers and candle stick makers, fleeced by those that could not otherwise create value.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
      There is truth to this. It started with the rich exploiting the poor and not accepting THEIR rights. In a totally free market society, the wealthy land owners wouldnt have gotten away with being so rich (at least for very long).
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    • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 2 months ago
      Ragnar was doing the same thing as Robin Hood. Stealing from looters and returning the proceeds to those it was looted from. Ragnar's friends were more advanced producers, but I think Rand's (through Ragnar's speech) assumptions may lack support in historical reality. Is there any detail on Rand's research into the history?
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      • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 2 months ago
        She was not saying that Robin Hood was a looter but that is how myth is structured. She was trying to set set it right with Ragnar, just as she did with other wrongly believed ideas such as the nature of sacrifice which is taken oppositely than what it really is.
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      • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago
        The description of Robin Hood by Ragnar in Atlas Shrugged was not an historical Robin Hood but the commonly accepted legend treating robbing from the rich for the poor as a moral ideal. Ragnar told Rearden, "It is said that he fought against the looting rulers and returned the loot to those who had been robbed, but that is not the meaning of the legend which has survived. He is remembered, not as a champion of property, but as a champion of need, not as a defender of the robbed, but as a provider of the poor. He is held to be the first man who assumed a halo of virtue by practicing charity with wealth which he did not own, by giving away goods which he had not produced, by making others pay for the luxury of his pity. He is the man who became the symbol of the idea that need, not achievement, is the source of rights, that we don't have to produce, only to want, that the earned does not belong to us, but the unearned does."

        As for the historical Robin Hood, if there was one, an interesting attempted account of the legend of Robin Hood is in William Manchester's A World Lit Only by Fire, The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance - Portrait of an Age:

        "A Yorkshire gravestone bears this inscription:

        "Hear underneath dis laihl stean
        las Robert earl of Huntingtun
        neer arcir yer az hie sa geud
        And ipl kauld in Robin Heud
        sick utlawz as he an iz men
        il england nivr si agen
        Obiit 24 kal Decembris 1247

        "Robin Hood lived; this marker confirms it, just as the Easter tables attest to the existence of the great Arthur. But that is all the tombstone does. Everything we know about that period suggests that Robin was merely another wellborn cutthroat who hid in shrubbery by roadsides, waiting to rob helpless wayfarers. The possibility that he stole from the rich and gave to the poor is, like the tale of that other cold-blooded rogue, Jesse James, highly unlikely. Even unlikelier is the conceit that Robin Hood, aka Heud, was accompanied by a bedmate called Maid Marian, a giant known as Little John, and a lapsed Catholic named Friar Tuck. Almost certainly they were creatures of an ingenious folk imagination, and their contemporary, the sheriff of Nottingham, is probably the most libeled law enforcement in this millennium.

        "The more we study those remote centuries, the unlikelier those legends become.

        But there is very little evidence of what, if anything, Robin Hood may have been. Some even doubt http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&l... that the tombstone cited by Manchester (described above) is legitimate.

        If Robin Hood did exist, it is unlikely that either of the emphases of the legend of the "good outlaw" for either of the competing notions of "good" is true. There is apparently no evidence for either: he would most likely have been only a ruthless outlaw stealing from whomever had something to steal, which was common at the time.

        Whether or not he existed, the legend has existed for centuries in various versions in different historical stories, ballads, poems, songs, plays and movies. Ragnar in Atlas Shrugged was denouncing the common version we hear today cheering on "robbing from the rich for the poor", which is throughout the novel in different forms in contrast to Ayn Rand's ethics of reason, productivity and egoism neither sacrificing oneself to others or others to oneself.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
        Its a novel. Even she said that there was objection to what Ragnar did among the gulchers. It would be very difficult to capture a ship going to some socialist country, and actually returning the value of the shipments to the people who were stolen from.
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        • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago
          "Even she"? The objection among the heroes in the plot were to his risking his life, not to retrieving loot from the looters to return it to its rightful owners.
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        • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 2 months ago
          Guess I am accustomed to novelists who do extensive research in order for their fiction to be very believeable. Just wondering if Rand had some historical support when she wrote Ragnar's speech. It would be in character for Rand to have support.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
            I will say its emotionally appealing that a Ragnar would take from the state and give to the productive people. At least its not giving based on "need"
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          • Posted by bassboat 8 years, 2 months ago
            The whole novel is nothing more than Rand's attempt to warn people of the inevitable decay of America run by statists. The ideas like the Gulch and Ragnar are things to reach for as a people, simply an objective.
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            • Posted by swmorgan77 8 years, 2 months ago
              "The whole novel is nothing more than Rand's attempt to warn people of the inevitable decay of America run by statists."

              It's QUITE A BIT MORE. It's also a great work of art, and it laid out a new, completely integrated philosophy (from metaphysics, epistemology, ethics to aesthetics) as the centerpeice of its plot (Galt's Speech).

              Sounds like you need a few more reads, because there's a lot more going on there than just politics or some political warning.
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            • Posted by ewv 8 years, 2 months ago
              "Nothing more"? Ayn Rand said she wrote Atlas Shrugged to project in fiction her vision of the "ideal man", i.e., man at his best. To show the crucial role of the mind in human survival the plot illustrates what happens when, in a fictional accelerated form, the mind is withdrawn from society

              But she was well aware of the parallels between the novel and the course of the country and the intellectual reasons for it. She told herself repeatedly while writing the novel that she was trying to prevent it from happening in reality. The statism is a result of the irrationalism in collectivism and self sacrifice regarded as a moral "ideal" spreading and dominating the culture. That can't be stopped without the acceptance of reason and individualism. It isn't enough to denounce the statism.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 2 months ago
    Actually, Ragnar does Robin Hood a minor injustice. But he makes up for it by imitating Robin Hood.

    The real Robin Hood (likely Sir Robin of Loxley) championed those whom King John and the Sheriff of Nottingham had robbed, through unjust taxes and civil asset forfeiture (or its equivalent). Does that not sound exactly like the mission Ragnar set for himself? The problem, and the source of the confusion, was this: in Robin Hood's day, wealthy people were robbing the poor. The only thing that's changed today is that powerful politicians, acting ostensibly on behalf of the poor, are robbing those who have wealth but lack connections. The modern King Johns and Sheriffs of Nottingham have misappropriated the Robin Hood symbol for themselves. Ragnar is the appropriate Robin Hood for our modern age.
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  • Posted by swmorgan77 8 years, 2 months ago
    It's very hard to reach ANY reliable historical conclusions about such a mythical figure. But as for the legend, the prevailing sentiment IS INDEED one of class warfare, i.e. "robbing from the rich to feed the poor" and on that level it does very much deserve to be condemned in the way that Ragnar's character condemned it.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 2 months ago
    The tale of Robin Hood is actually a tale of extremes wherein neither side embodies proper principles. On the one side you have the repressive government which taxes at a whim and on the other you have the people's rebellion. Historically, the notion of Prince John sprang from the time of the the Crusades when the Normans (French) ruled England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John,_K.... John's brother Richard was away fighting the Crusades and John was tasked with raising money to fund those military operations. But John's ham-handed approaches and the ever-increasing monetary demands made for a bad combination on top of a class of peasants already chafing from foreign rule. On top of that John's rule was losing on the home front to invaders much closer to home and he was at odds with the clergy at the time, which made him generally loathed by just about everyone.

    On the other side you have "Robin of Locksley" who becomes Robin the Hood (Hood meaning outlaw) after he is declared rogue and his title and land stripped for defying John. He is romanticized in folklore for restoring to the people what was once theirs and leading a revolt which some claim ended with the signing of the Magna Carta. But he also represents a dangerous element of active rebellion that can quickly turn into mob rule.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 2 months ago
    Possibly, unless you oppose the so-called divine right of kings and take the view that power granted by God to a ruthless monarch is a form of slavery deserving of resistance and revolution. Is it looting to steal from the looter? Not according to Ragnar Danneskjöld.
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    • Posted by bassboat 8 years, 2 months ago
      Kings don't last long nor do governments that tax its people to bankruptcy. Taxes are used to give to the peasants whose votes those in power need and eventually kill the producer's will to produce. Same with kings. It won't stop as Santa is real in the eyes of many.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
      My stolen tax money has already been spent by the establishment. If I find some way to steal tax money back, it would be from other people's stolen tax money. No?
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      • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 2 months ago
        Ragnar didn't think so.
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
          I am actually doing a "Ragnar" by accepting SS money
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          • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 2 months ago
            Except that Ragnar didn't follow the looters rules to get paid, and took significant risks of bodily harm. If you use medicare(if that is the correct program for it), you may be risking bodily harm.

            There is a theory that consent to social security actually empowers the state legally to enslave you as you have given up your sovereignty under the national emergency declared by FDR that continues even today..
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            • Posted by term2 8 years, 2 months ago
              I feel enslaved already by the taxes they TAKE from me. I cant live without earning money, and I am enslaved during the time I make that money that they steal from me.

              As to SS, I dont feel good about taking it, or medicare for that matter. I would never have agreed to those programs if it was up to me to subscribe to them in the first place.
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  • Posted by gpecaut 8 years, 2 months ago
    Actually the taxes were not for the war Crusade, but for ransom to get the King released. However Prince John was heavily skimming the collected taxes, and as long as his brother, the King was being held, he was by default, King. Add to that. If he never got enough money (gold and silver) collected in time, his brother would be put to death. Thus leaving him the Monarch.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 2 months ago
    The only Robin Hood I cared for was from the movie "Men In Tights" by Mel Brooks. Of course in medieval times, there was some justification especially when it came to the church funds which cheerfully stole as well.The Libs should be OK with that since we are heading back that way at a faster increasing rate.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 8 years, 2 months ago
    Most material goods travel by Mega-Container vessels. It would be very hard to steal goods from such vessels. Ragnar would need special cranes on his ship to remove containerized goods.
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