The "Prisoner Dilemma"- game theory is nonsense. It is an interesting academic exercise. The real world is not a game. Altruism does not exist. Everyone is selfish. This study is the product of a social engineer's fantasy. Confirmation bias ...
exactly. This reporting on the study is propaganda. You cannot draw these wide-ranging conclusions from "prisoner's dilemma." It is a specific logic problem which cannot tell you about other circumstances and purposely excludes real life additional factors. This is reporting gone wild. This reminds me of the Mozart effect with babies. The study was on college students, and the researcher said it was one particular piece of music and short-term effect. Hundreds of thousands of parents bought into the reported propaganda. Why didn't this reporting acknowledge that 200 years ago, David Ricardo proved unforced trade (ie co-operating) makes sense for both parties. that is not altruism.
In "The Virtue of Selfishness" the fact that everyone is NOT selfish is clearly explained. If you enjoyed _Atlas Shrugged_ and understood "John Galt's Speech" then perhaps you would like to read more of the technical literature that Ayn Rand and her associates created to explain the philosophy that she called "Objectivism."
I am well versed in Ayn Rand's more academic works. I have read "The Virtue of Selfishness" as well as most of her books. I have even read Leonard Peikoff's "Objectivism: the Philosophy of Ayn Rand. The problem exists with the nebulous nature of selfishness and how one perceives and defines it.
However, it has been a while since I have read "The virtue of Selfishness." My copy is on the shelf right in front of me; if you will supply the page numbers that concern this discussion I will review them and re-consider my position.
I have my own philosophy as do we all. I assert that those who claim unselfish altruistic attributes are just as selfish as others. Their selfishness consists of their desire to see their will done and their reward is the satisfaction of seeing achievement of same.
This is not arbitrary. Ayn Rand's point in Atlas Shrugged is that by allowing sloppy language, half-meanings, vague inferences, and other compromise with one's opponents, the bright promise of 19th century capitalism was given away to the looters. Taxation and controls are secondary consequences, not primary issues. The primary issues are matters of philosophy. Incorrect definitions were more destructive to our culture than the legislation because the inexact thinking, the bad metaphysics and epistemology, led to those bad laws.
I agree that your description in the common vernacular describes the conflicts of wills. However, you must be aware that Ayn Rand insisted on a specifc definition for "selfishness", as she did for "capitalism." She did not just make up her own meanings for these words. She identified the correct and exact meanings of those words and did so by drawing from "common" meanings, but refusing to allow irrelevant inferences to be slipped in. (See above about being mean.)
In _The Virtue of Selfishness_ see for instance Essay 5. "Isn't Everyone Selfish?" by Nathaniel Branden and on a related theme see Essay 18. "Counterfeit Individualism" by Nathaniel Branden.
You can have your own philosophy if you want; and you can claim to "admire" Ayn Rand. But the bar of moral achievement is set higher than that.
I remember at the beginning of TVOS the fine point placed upon the definition of selfishness. It is best to define terms. I quite agree with the problem of sloppy language and Branden does provide some qualifiers like at the end of essay 5 where it is stated that “A genuine selfishness---that is: a genuine concern with discovering what is to one’s self interest, an acceptance of the responsibility of achieving it, a refusal ever to betray it by acting on blind whim, mood, impulse or feeling of the moment, an uncompromising loyalty to one’s judgment, convictions and values—represents a profound moral achievement. Those who assert that “everyone is selfish” commonly intend their statement as an expression of cynicism and contempt. But the truth is that their statement pays mankind a compliment it does not deserve.” Nathaniel Branden TVOS essay 5
Now here is my answer: I do not suggest everyone is selfish because of an expression of cynicism or contempt. Some selfishness is admirable while other forms are contemptible. This is not to say that selfishness cannot be a virtue. I am not trying to pay an undeserved compliment. I am saying that even altruists (although they are wrong) believe they are doing what is in their own self interest, accept the responsibility of achieving it, that they, in their minds are not acting on blind whim but reason, albeit upon shaky metaphysics and epistemology. They believe in a reward of some sort, in this life or the next, for their deeds and thus are acting in their perceived self interest. They believe and reason that it is in their long term interest. They are selfish, but not in an admirable way or as defined by objectivist doctrine.
I have reviewed both essays and I find them wanting. Where is the example of the totally selfless person? I am still waiting for this mystery person who I cannot ascribe selfish motivations for their actions… Now, if you only accept those examples of selfishness which are based upon accepted objectivist ethics and are truly beneficial long term, then yes some are not “selfish” but would you argue that no one acts selfishly because their perception of reality is incorrect?
I have studied much philosophy. I do not call myself an objectivist. I am a student of Objectivism, but I am not doctrinaire. Objectivism in my opinion is the most overall defensible on logical grounds, but it is not beyond question on all fronts.
“An individualist is, foremost, a man of reason. It is upon the ability to think, upon his rational faculty, that man’s life depends; rationality is the precondition of independence and self-reliance. An “individualist” who is neither independent nor self-reliant, is a contradiction in terms; individualism and independence are logically inseparable. The basic independence of the individualist consists of his loyalty to his own mind; it is his perception of the facts of reality, his understanding, his judgment, that he refuses to sacrifice to the unproved assertions of others. That is the meaning of intellectual independence—and that is the essence of an individualist. He is dispassionately and intransigently fact centered.” Nathaniel Brandon TVOS essay 18
Here I would suggest that the perception of the facts of reality among some are based upon poor metaphysics but that does not mean one is not selfish or that in their mind they have not weighed the “facts” as they perceive them. Do some people act upon whim, mood, or impulse? Certainly, but I find that a specious argument to determine that such a person is devoid of selfishness.
If we define our terms in a very narrow way as defined by Rand we can say that not everyone is selfish, but we must assume we know the thought process or lack thereof of those in question.
“Everyone, whether he be plowman or banker, clerk or captain, citizen or ruler, is, in a real sense, a philosopher. Being human, having a highly developed brain and nervous system, he must think; and thinking is the pathway to philosophy… Your philosophy, then, is the meaning which the world has for you. It is your answer to the question, “Why?” Having fitted your experiences into a whole, having related them to each other, you say of the world, “This is the way things fit together. This is the world as I understand it. This is my philosophy.” S. E. FROST, JR., Ph.D. Basic Teachings Of The Great Philosophers
Not having read the books on philosophy and Just to throw in my two cents, I believe that altruism stems from being a rational actualized selfish individual. Only a true 'selfish' person who fully understands the experiences they have gone through can relate to others when they go through the same experience. They know of the 'pain' or 'joy' or 'apathy' or 'etc.' that the individual is experiencing and so can relate to that individual. People who often claim they are 'altruistic' are not, they seldom understand the circumstances they go through so cannot relate to another when they meet an individual who is. Their so called 'altruism' is short lived and all to often poorly received as they appear dishonest.
This is where I believe we should focus our concerns on, if we make the individual stronger and accept that they are 'selfish' and allow them to fully actualize this, we would be overall a stronger society.
Hello gblaze47, I like your take on the issue. Your point is much more salient than my mere argument of semantics. It is good to hear from you again. Regards, O.A.
We could argue this all day -- and I would prefer doing it at night over beer... We disagree on several key points. That said, I clicked the Thumbs Up for your nice expression and careful thought. We could drink beer without arguing, too: that might be better.
Likewise. I have repaid in kind, because I appreciate your thoughtful perspective. I enjoy a good argument when it appears more as a debate than animus. Beer is good too! Thank you for your input. Regards, O.A.
Selfishness in humans is not a #@%&** trait dammit! It is love of self arrived at by using Reason, Logic, and our Senses to determine our philosophy of life. !
It fails to take into account the rational side of self interest. They speak from the perspective of altruism or hedonism, you are either a cooperative member of society or a cut throat only looking out for yourself. A rational human being knows that cooperating with others will benefit him more than trying to do everything alone or abusing others.
It also fails to account that even when some one does something "altruistic" like sacrificing their time to support the elderly or disabled, they are in fact doing something because it has a rewarding feeling for them. I don't look after the people I love because of a sense of duty or guilt or self sacrifice, I do it because it makes ME happy to have them in my life and doing well.
Your last paragraph provides the evidence for the non-existence of altruism. The word is sometimes used as tool to convince others to sacrifice... to be a sacrificial animal...
You are not "most people"; you are not the unnamed "someone." You might indeed act in a rationally selfish way to help someone you love. I am not sure that is what "most" people would do. In fact, I am pretty sure that "most" people seem to align their own desires to the social expectations they inherit and do so without question. Do you think that the millions dead in the Iran-Iraq War rationally chose to selfishly achieve their highest values? Does any soldier? Maybe... But we would have to ask directly to know.
I saw it this morning, was going to post but looks like you beat me to it ;) This is a great example of mathematical theory not applicable to reality. Unless, of course, your reality involves kidnappers who include you and fellow kidnapees in a pre-interrogation presentation that outlines all your possible options, followed by a Q&A session. And possibly donuts.
I still don't see how they make the claims they do, typically humans are both selfish and co-operative depending on many factors as well as varying degree's between. To come-out and say selfishness doesn't work long term also begets the evolutionary fact that "if it doesn't assist the organism in survival it is soon dropped"
Agreed. Selfishness does not mean always throwing others under the bus in favor of your own needs. Look at early farming. Cooperation is good for the group. However, sharing food to "benefit" hungry neighboring tribes would be bad in the long run. On surface seems to keep more people alive, furthering the human race, but in end just creates lazy moochers.
Also, I love that the study's author describes being selfish as "being mean". I felt like I was listening to a kindergarten teacher lecturing kids ;)
It is well-known that altruism has always benefited the collective. We would not be here, otherwise. Read Dawkins's THE SELFISH GENE.
That said, humans have been changing, progressing, in ways that reward selfishness. At the same time, technology has changed the parameters of genetic evolution. Genetic engineering is just that. But, realize also, that in the past, you only needed to live long enough to have 2.2 children and raise them to have 2.2 of their own. Then you were not needed.
But, even Neanderthals protected their injured elders. And that changed the game because we could transmit knowledge across generations. Knowledge is power.
Consider also that geriatric obstetrics is new specialty: woman aged 60 years have babies. The survival game is different now.
Also (ultimately), what do you care if (2.2)^5 babies are born, if you live 1500 years yourself?
In the past those babies - and your willingness to die for the first of them - were your only hope to pass on your genes ... or more correctly the only hope of your genes to pass themselves on...
But, that all being true, the objective science is indeed that for animals (especially social animals), altruism ensures the future of the species.
Altruism does not exist. Everyone is selfish.
This study is the product of a social engineer's fantasy. Confirmation bias ...
This reporting on the study is propaganda. You cannot draw these wide-ranging conclusions from "prisoner's dilemma." It is a specific logic problem which cannot tell you about other circumstances and purposely excludes real life additional factors. This is reporting gone wild. This reminds me of the Mozart effect with babies. The study was on college students, and the researcher said it was one particular piece of music and short-term effect. Hundreds of thousands of parents bought into the reported propaganda.
Why didn't this reporting acknowledge that 200 years ago, David Ricardo proved unforced trade (ie co-operating) makes sense for both parties. that is not altruism.
I am well versed in Ayn Rand's more academic works. I have read "The Virtue of Selfishness" as well as most of her books. I have even read Leonard Peikoff's "Objectivism: the Philosophy of Ayn Rand. The problem exists with the nebulous nature of selfishness and how one perceives and defines it.
However, it has been a while since I have read "The virtue of Selfishness." My copy is on the shelf right in front of me; if you will supply the page numbers that concern this discussion I will review them and re-consider my position.
I have my own philosophy as do we all. I assert that those who claim unselfish altruistic attributes are just as selfish as others. Their selfishness consists of their desire to see their will done and their reward is the satisfaction of seeing achievement of same.
Regards,
O.A.
Incorrect definitions were more destructive to our culture than the legislation because the inexact thinking, the bad metaphysics and epistemology, led to those bad laws.
I agree that your description in the common vernacular describes the conflicts of wills. However, you must be aware that Ayn Rand insisted on a specifc definition for "selfishness", as she did for "capitalism." She did not just make up her own meanings for these words. She identified the correct and exact meanings of those words and did so by drawing from "common" meanings, but refusing to allow irrelevant inferences to be slipped in. (See above about being mean.)
In _The Virtue of Selfishness_ see for instance
Essay 5. "Isn't Everyone Selfish?" by Nathaniel Branden and on a related theme see Essay 18. "Counterfeit Individualism" by Nathaniel Branden.
You can have your own philosophy if you want; and you can claim to "admire" Ayn Rand. But the bar of moral achievement is set higher than that.
I remember at the beginning of TVOS the fine point placed upon the definition of selfishness. It is best to define terms. I quite agree with the problem of sloppy language and Branden does provide some qualifiers like at the end of essay 5 where it is stated that “A genuine selfishness---that is: a genuine concern with discovering what is to one’s self interest, an acceptance of the responsibility of achieving it, a refusal ever to betray it by acting on blind whim, mood, impulse or feeling of the moment, an uncompromising loyalty to one’s judgment, convictions and values—represents a profound moral achievement. Those who assert that “everyone is selfish” commonly intend their statement as an expression of cynicism and contempt. But the truth is that their statement pays mankind a compliment it does not deserve.” Nathaniel Branden TVOS essay 5
Now here is my answer: I do not suggest everyone is selfish because of an expression of cynicism or contempt. Some selfishness is admirable while other forms are contemptible. This is not to say that selfishness cannot be a virtue. I am not trying to pay an undeserved compliment. I am saying that even altruists (although they are wrong) believe they are doing what is in their own self interest, accept the responsibility of achieving it, that they, in their minds are not acting on blind whim but reason, albeit upon shaky metaphysics and epistemology. They believe in a reward of some sort, in this life or the next, for their deeds and thus are acting in their perceived self interest. They believe and reason that it is in their long term interest. They are selfish, but not in an admirable way or as defined by objectivist doctrine.
I have reviewed both essays and I find them wanting. Where is the example of the totally selfless person? I am still waiting for this mystery person who I cannot ascribe selfish motivations for their actions… Now, if you only accept those examples of selfishness which are based upon accepted objectivist ethics and are truly beneficial long term, then yes some are not “selfish” but would you argue that no one acts selfishly because their perception of reality is incorrect?
I have studied much philosophy. I do not call myself an objectivist. I am a student of Objectivism, but I am not doctrinaire. Objectivism in my opinion is the most overall defensible on logical grounds, but it is not beyond question on all fronts.
“An individualist is, foremost, a man of reason. It is upon the ability to think, upon his rational faculty, that man’s life depends; rationality is the precondition of independence and self-reliance. An “individualist” who is neither independent nor self-reliant, is a contradiction in terms; individualism and independence are logically inseparable. The basic independence of the individualist consists of his loyalty to his own mind; it is his perception of the facts of reality, his understanding, his judgment, that he refuses to sacrifice to the unproved assertions of others. That is the meaning of intellectual independence—and that is the essence of an individualist. He is dispassionately and intransigently fact centered.” Nathaniel Brandon TVOS essay 18
Here I would suggest that the perception of the facts of reality among some are based upon poor metaphysics but that does not mean one is not selfish or that in their mind they have not weighed the “facts” as they perceive them. Do some people act upon whim, mood, or impulse? Certainly, but I find that a specious argument to determine that such a person is devoid of selfishness.
If we define our terms in a very narrow way as defined by Rand we can say that not everyone is selfish, but we must assume we know the thought process or lack thereof of those in question.
“Everyone, whether he be plowman or banker, clerk or captain, citizen or ruler, is, in a real sense, a philosopher. Being human, having a highly developed brain and nervous system, he must think; and thinking is the pathway to philosophy…
Your philosophy, then, is the meaning which the world has for you. It is your answer to the question, “Why?” Having fitted your experiences into a whole, having related them to each other, you say of the world, “This is the way things fit together. This is the world as I understand it. This is my philosophy.” S. E. FROST, JR., Ph.D. Basic Teachings Of The Great Philosophers
Respectfully,
O.A.
This is where I believe we should focus our concerns on, if we make the individual stronger and accept that they are 'selfish' and allow them to fully actualize this, we would be overall a stronger society.
I like your take on the issue. Your point is much more salient than my mere argument of semantics.
It is good to hear from you again.
Regards,
O.A.
Thank you for your input.
Regards,
O.A.
!
It also fails to account that even when some one does something "altruistic" like sacrificing their time to support the elderly or disabled, they are in fact doing something because it has a rewarding feeling for them. I don't look after the people I love because of a sense of duty or guilt or self sacrifice, I do it because it makes ME happy to have them in my life and doing well.
This is a great example of mathematical theory not applicable to reality. Unless, of course, your reality involves kidnappers who include you and fellow kidnapees in a pre-interrogation presentation that outlines all your possible options, followed by a Q&A session. And possibly donuts.
Also, I love that the study's author describes being selfish as "being mean". I felt like I was listening to a kindergarten teacher lecturing kids ;)
That said, humans have been changing, progressing, in ways that reward selfishness. At the same time, technology has changed the parameters of genetic evolution. Genetic engineering is just that. But, realize also, that in the past, you only needed to live long enough to have 2.2 children and raise them to have 2.2 of their own. Then you were not needed.
But, even Neanderthals protected their injured elders. And that changed the game because we could transmit knowledge across generations. Knowledge is power.
Consider also that geriatric obstetrics is new specialty: woman aged 60 years have babies. The survival game is different now.
Also (ultimately), what do you care if (2.2)^5 babies are born, if you live 1500 years yourself?
In the past those babies - and your willingness to die for the first of them - were your only hope to pass on your genes ... or more correctly the only hope of your genes to pass themselves on...
But, that all being true, the objective science is indeed that for animals (especially social animals), altruism ensures the future of the species.