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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 4 months ago
    We must work to abolish food stamps, "Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program," or whatever you wish to call it, forthwith.

    To begin with, it violates the basic Gulch principle: "I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." The program takes from some for the unearned, unpaid benefit of others.

    Second, the "others" who get the unearned, unpaid benefit include more than "down on their luck" individuals. "Food stamps" always make part of the Farm Bill. That bill turns farmers into Orren Boyles. And may of them don't even care.

    Third, it's a trap. An elaborate trap. It traps people into dependency on the government.

    Fourth: it makes no effort to address the reason anyone is "down on his luck": the pervasive economic interference that means many couldn't become independent even if they tried--because the government wouldn't let them. When the government makes job creation impossible, they might as well tell job seekers, "You may not get out of our soup line."
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  • Posted by ScintiaSitPotentia 8 years, 4 months ago
    In Regards to your question should welfare be tolerated, I say no in the form that it is in. I do not care what state you are in, you are still able to work and contribute to a society. If they want aid from the government then they should work for that aid. Pick up a phone for four hours, get a group together and clean up the streets, volunteer at a shelter. To hand out money, stamps, and other goods is feeding a parasite on society. We as objectivist know that we must struggle and work for our endeavors. At the end of a long day’s work we feel happy, because “happiness is the state of consciousness that proceeds the achievement of ones values.” To allow these people to sit or suffer and receive aid is a crime not only to the people of the society allowing there work to be given to the needy but allowing those needy to not feel pride nor happiness for what they earn.
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    • Posted by Hot_Black_Desiato 8 years, 4 months ago
      Agreed. The current form is total robbery and theft.

      I would be more tolerant if there was a 40 hour work requirement, monthly drug testing, and the welfare benefits could ONLY be used to buy real food like vegetables.

      Basic, basic need, and you still have to provide value for receipt of it.

      You watch 99% drop off if you implemented those policies.
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  • Posted by bsmith51 8 years, 4 months ago
    Enforced welfare kills the human spirit (of both the donor and receiver). It is anti-life. That does not mean people should not help each other, the voluntary basis of which defines the word, community.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 4 months ago
    Welfare is immoral (theft) and should be eliminated immediately. This includes Social Security and Medicare (although I would accept phasing these out).
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    • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 4 months ago
      Social Security and Medicare are not "welfare," as the money has been extorted from producers to begin with. Anyone who has "contributed" should have the contract for repayment honored. The takers who have been given access without investing should be cut off.
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      • Posted by stargeezer 8 years, 4 months ago
        I'm not too certain I'd agree with you since the dem controlled congress 40 years ago raided the then solvent "trust fund" to pay for Johnson's "great society". Since then SS has been a black hole and when medicare was added to it, things only got worse.

        As for medicare being something you actually pay for, that's just totally untrue. There's no way the few dollars that we have stolen from our paychecks could EVER pay for our medical insurance as we get older.
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        • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 4 months ago
          There never was a trust fund. There is a Supreme Court case on point and the government is very clear in their arguments that Social Security is in no way a real insurance program, it is just a welfare program and the revenues for SS are just really another tax.
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          • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 4 months ago
            There is separate bookkeeping for SS, and it's technically a Ponzi scheme, relying on incoming revenue to cover the outgoing spending. However, thanks to abuse of SSDI (many of the unemployed whose checks have stopped suddenly became "disabled"), even that phony shadow show is collapsing.
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          • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
            At one time they kept at lest some in the operating fund. LBJ had all of those types changed and they all fed the General Fund The payouts come out of each years budget. As DB said .. no fund.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
              But as DZ99 said more taxes to enrich the ruling class of the left. The center is not the aisle between Demcorats and Republicans in each of th e two Houses. To find the Center put pin a map of DC in the National Archives Building. Measure to the center of the Congressional Chambers. right between the House of he Senate and the House of The Representatives. That's as close to the real center as these Congrressionals ever get.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
              But as DZ99 said more taxes to enrich the ruling class of the left. The center is not the aisle between Demcorats and Republicans in each of th e two Houses. To find the Center put pin a map of DC in the National Archives Building. Measure to the center of the Congressional Chambers. right between the House of he Senate and the House of The Representatives. That's as close to the real center as these Congrressionals ever get.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
            they talked about a trust fund, even calling it that. But, its welfare now. Whatever was "saved" to pay for the benefits has been long wasted secretly on other programs.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 4 months ago
    People who really need charity do exist. But I prefer it be privately funded and privately run, and not just because of the NAP but because:
    (1) Churches and other private institutions are better at directing help to those who can become self sufficient, and away from those who will just go on mooching until somebody stops them. The Mormons are especially good at this; they can and do put unemployed people into jobs.
    (2) A private "safety net" is the kind of spontaneous public good that ought to be encouraged, a set of habits that creates better communities. Having the state make charity a state monopoly destroys those habits and leads to the kind of alienation that has given us movements like BLM.
    (3) Under a state monopoly system, some deserving people "fall through the cracks" and don't qualify. I expect this to happen less often under private charity.

    I'm aware of Rand's disdain for charity as demeaning to both giver and taker, and I somewhat agree with it, but I don't feel it should stop us from giving at all.
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  • Posted by $ DBMcDonagh 8 years, 4 months ago
    In the past we as Americans have always prided ourselves on being individuals and self reliant. If someone was having a hard time the local governments as well as charities, funded by Americans at their own discretion, helped those less fortunate. They provided relief in the form of
    food and sometimes cash to poor residents. In many cases those capable were required to work for the town or county were given jobs for the earn the money and food they received.
    In special cases where those needing help were not capable of working: widows, children, the elderly, and the disabled were helped without thought of return. In the philosophy of objectivism Ayn Rand pointed out "Don’t try to be your brother’s keeper or to force him to be yours. Live independently". This to me means we should have the moral duty to decide as individuals (as they did in the past) whether we will help others and in what way.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
    I dont give welfare to anyone, really. Responsible people have seen to it that they have reserves if some disaster happens to them. The ones who seek welfare are the ones who havent planned for the future it seems.

    There is always some work out there. Better to get the proposed welfare recipients that have some skills to go out and look for work somewhere. Free lunches only promote sitting around and not finding work.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 8 years, 4 months ago
    Welfare is the route to slavery, and politicians know it. When I was a young adult, there was no welfare, you worked and made do with what was there., Now, young adults thing all jobs are beneath them, and crooked politicians make sure they can make more sitting on the rears than demeaning themselves to be productive. Welfare weakens whole families by trading sef-sufficieney for welfare slavery.. Soon they don't care, and they decide they "deserve" more, for nothing. It is a vicious trap, not a hand up. John Stuart Mill called such weakening of people through help as immoral.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 4 months ago
    Welfare was meant to be on a community basis so that the community could judge who could and who couldn't work. If one needed help for a time, only those that wanted to share their abundance base on that persons worthiness would do so. If they were just lazy or a user...then they were left to be uncomfortable within their poverty.
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  • Posted by Animal 8 years, 4 months ago
    I'm in favor of suspending the franchise for anyone who is on public assistance for more than, say, one year. Their voting privileges will be returned once they are productive citizens again - by that, I mean taxpayers.

    No skin in the game, no vote. That, more than any single one thing, will eliminate the current state of our elections as auctions, in which politicians fall all over themselves competing to offer voters more of other people's property.

    I have many more ideas on welfare, which are expressed in my Manifesto: http://www.frombearcreek.com/animals-...
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 4 months ago
    I do not agree with welfare as it exist today. What I would like to see is a 1 time helping hand for those who need it at a local level. Example, 3 years paid at a community college (w/day care), bus\train passes, rent reimbursement, food allotment, health services, and be permitted to work a part time job for cash. This should not last more than 4 years and is a one time offer for life. If after this helping-hand is extended and the person has not straightened out his/her life to the extent that he/she is self sustaining then they can rely on non-government charities and/or starve.

    I think that sometimes things happen in people's lives. A hand up creates a productive citizen who will put money back into the tax coffers.

    Also, on welfare, voting privilege is suspended.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
      I think that whenever "help" is offered, it makes people less inclined to provide for their own future needs, and means they will want a handout in the future for other things they didnt plan for.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 4 months ago
        and this is exactly why 1) its a one time occurrence 2) its a legitimate hand up, and 3) they have no voting privilege until they leave the welfare roll.
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
          I certainly agree with #3. Otherwise it's a conflict of interest. As to #2, u would argue that governments can't effectively make those determinations
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 4 months ago
            Local governments, State, country, town and city, are in the perfect position to make those determinations.
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            • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
              But they are awarding money to these "needy" people that they steal from me and other citizens who have it
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              • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 4 months ago
                On local level, money given can be monitored and those receiving be held accountable. I see being taxed as something vile, but not something we can eliminate or avoid anytime soon. Since that is the case, why not invest in people so they can make something of themselves, stand on their own feet and no longer be dependent? I'd much rather see tax money do that, with a very limited term of one-time help, than government throwing endless tax dollars into a never ending pit that lasts decades and yields nothing but another, larger group of self-entitled moochers.

                If we are going to be taxed and we're going to be forced to fund welfare I'd rather a constructive hand-up that lessens the welfare rolls than a wasteful hand-out that only expands it. You?
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                • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
                  I live in Las Vegas. From my experience, welfare doesn't help recipients here get independent. It just enables the very behavior that got them there in the first place. The idea of helping people is fine, but shouldn't be done by taxation. If you or others want to donate and help the "needy", you are free to join a group to do just that. I think the recipients should feel the need to repay the welfare money received. Here in LV, they just come back again and again to get more. It's pretty sad. I watch the lines at the local Lutheran food bank grow larger each week as people realize it's free food
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                  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 4 months ago
                    If the fundamental nature of the giving is not changed, if the term of the giving is not changed, then the minds of the people receiving will not change.

                    I'm not talking of a philosophical utopian idea, I'm talking about to make reality come to exemplify what it should have been from the beginning - a helping hand, not a hand out or a long term career. You can say all you want about the perfect society but taxes aren't going anywhere. I'd rather see the money used productively and in such a way as to reduce the problem.
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                    • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
                      I take your argument as trying to limit the giving to those in real need and to stop the giving when their real need is over. I do think your approach is the more likely to be implemented. I would LIKE to see no more giving at all paid for by taxes if that were possible.
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                      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 4 months ago
                        Agreed. And something must be done to stem the Moocher mentality, the best thing I can think of is personal pride in accomplishment.
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                        • Posted by term2 8 years, 4 months ago
                          Maybe the best thing to get rid of the moocher mentality is when mooching doesnt get you anything !! My cat learned to bang the special moist food dish against the wall to indicate he wanted more. But the moist food was supposed to be a special thing, and the cat used to bang the dish every day. We fixed tht by stopping the moist food thing for a couple of weeks until he gave up banging the dish. Now he appreciates an occasional shot of moist food and doesnt bang the dish.
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                          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 4 months ago
                            It wont go easy, particular with the numbers as they are today. Mooching, in my opinion, is learned. What I suggest weans them off the government teat and installs a sense of self-worth and accomplishment. You have 3-4 years to get your life in order or you have no help from there. One time. No exceptions.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 8 years, 4 months ago
    I have a "relatively" conservative co-worker. When I suggested that Welfare be scaled back, in order to wean people off of it, he argues for what it will do to "the children". He just refuses to accept that everyone, including "the children" will have to suffer, just a little, in order to fix the problem.

    On the other hand, he is the kind of person who will spend thousands of dollars to save the life of one of his pets. Maybe I'm just a cold-hearted bastard?
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  • Posted by Solver 8 years, 4 months ago
    Why can't there be charity without theft? A simple philosophical question that is at the root of the explosive growth and power of statism.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 4 months ago
      There is. But once the word voluntary is left behind there isn't so it isn't charity. I suppose even Sally Srothers could still be considered voluntary. My days in the army and it may not be the same it was an out in the open protection racket. Started with one Savings Bond every three months four a year. Gradually other worthy causes were added. From the First Sergeant local church roof to the Fair Share Progarm where the amount you gave was decided for you? Even sign yiou up for payroll deduction.

      The strong arming was what one Sergeant Major explained as stuff rolls down hill. You are at the bottom. If you prefer not to be buried in a bill pile of stuff pony up. That means negarive efficency reports,, No recommendations for promotions, Finding yourself on the duty roster for everything and anything especially on weekends and holidays. In front of the unit were signs on what percent has complied. Not only this stuff but passing Physical Training Tests, weapons qualifications,. you name it. We had people in casts runing six minute miles on their records. Shooting Expert while they were on annual leave, The people up the hill would catch the same stuff if those 100% signs were not out front on time and they were inspected.

      But it was still a Protection Racket under RICO statutes.

      We had our oaths of office but we als had a dark side that started with some General saying..."if we got everyone in the Army to donate one dollar a month." Then appointing a project or officer.

      The Sergeant Major finished his speil with "think of it as purchasing $5.37 worth of non-harrassment or get ready for guard duty. Since you will be the only one on the duty roster you will get the duty every night.." Add in Kitchen Police and stuff like that you'll be busy until aren't a soldier anymore and still be a Private. "

      Translate that program into other fudging on the honor codes you end up with careerists instead of leaders..
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 4 months ago
    I had to go to an academy in Selma for several weeks when I joined the Department of Corrections in Alabama in 1982.
    It was very much a boot camp lite compared to what I went through at Parris Island.
    I was taught a lot of BS that did not apply to real prison work but that's another story.
    At the end of this training came the final exam. To flunk it meant to get fired. I made a high grade.
    But before we took it, word began to buzz that several blacks were going to flunk it on purpose. That was hard to believe the way we were now all looking so sharp marching about with a banner held before us.
    Turned out to be true. There they were standing in a group of about a dozen blinking back at us before they were told to go pack and skedaddle to apply for their unemployment checks.
    Suppose every class provides room and board to such wait to fail the final exam moochers who are also trained to shoot along with some hand-to-hand combat.
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  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 8 years, 4 months ago
    Welfare should not be tolerated. It just theft in a fancy frock. My state increased the medicaid roles by 70K people this year (there are less than 1M people in the entire state). Some of these people are employed full time.

    Wizards Rule #2: "The greatest harm can come from the best of intentions."
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    • Posted by Mamaemma 8 years, 4 months ago
      The only thing I would take issue with is that proponents of welfare have good intentions. A lot of money is siphoned off between the taxpayer and the welfare recipient.
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  • Posted by coaldigger 8 years, 4 months ago
    It is all well and good to say that able bodied people, now on welfare, need to get a job and support themselves and their families. What about the able bodied, but stupid, but lazy, but worthless? I am afraid that there are millions of them. What do we do when they riot, form roving gangs and attack people in their homes. I know we all have guns, LOL but that is a lot of blood to clean up. I believe most of welfare is protection money to keep the savages at bay and if we put it on a voluntary basis, many would not contribute. Perhaps we could have "police companies" like fire companies used to be and if you did not display the badge, proving payment, you received no protection. Or we could cut out the middle men, like we do now.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 4 months ago
    Welfare is a negative incentive to the recipients, and it is nothing more than stealing from the contributors, forced philanthropy.

    However, if it must exist, recipients should forgo the right to vote in any election following a period they've received welfare.

    Also if it has to exist, I favor a privately managed work program rather than welfare, where group of companies is contracted to employ and train people in some manner not to rather than just hand outs.
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