What would Ayn Rand think of the USA now?

Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 3 months ago to Culture
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In "Philosophy: Who Needs It", Rand writes, "I can say—not as a patriotic bromide, but with full knowledge of the necessary metaphysical, epistemological, ethical, political and esthetic roots—that the United States of America is the greatest, the noblest and, in its original founding principles, the only moral country in the history of the world."

I certainly agree that this was true regarding the original founding principles of the USA and that it was true at the time that she wrote it.
SOURCE URL: http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/america.html


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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
    I think that she would note the deterioration of the country, just as we do. She would also outline the causes, and suggest solutions. It would likely be written in acid.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      Today my students and I prepared an acidic solution called piranha solution. Imagine 70% H2SO4 and 30% hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide oxidizes any organic that might be sticking to whatever it is you are washing, glass slides in my case in prep for a synthesis step to follow tomorrow and over the next week or so. Is that acidic enough for you? Piranha solution is one of the few things in chemistry that actually scares me.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 3 months ago
        Taking chemistry was compulsory in my high school. The teacher, once we had memorized the periodic table, knowing that this particular class was from the art and music departments, spent most of the time talking politics. He would, however, in order to get our attention mix up some brews that he claimed to be dangerously acidic or explosive, which generally got our attention when he decided to quiz us in the near future, usually 2 days.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
    I disagree that it was true at the time she wrote it. We had already gone through Roosevelt, the federal reserve, the income tax, among others. The philosophical seeds were already sown long ago.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      The Woodrow Wilson era arguably refounded the country.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
        I did read somewhere that an analysis of ancient and contemporary cultures shows that large empires lasted about 250 years on the average, after which the people forgot what made the empire great and started feeding off the system. Seems like its happened here too. Human Nature I guess.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 3 months ago
    I think she'd probably say something similar with a disclaimer this time for the gov't of today.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      I agree in general. The rate at which America can change, either good or bad, now is faster than it has ever been. What man can accomplish now is far beyond what was once possible.
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
        But we have been on a sharp decline for at least 50 years now. The last 8 have been a steeper decline for sure, but Bush was no prize either. If Hildebeast gets in along with democratic congress, it will take an even steeper decline for sure.

        Trump might be able to slow down the decline a bit, so he has my vote for the little that is worth.
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
          America has deviated from its foundational values in recent generations, as much financially as anything else. Technologically, America is in a position that is far beyond the founders' wildest dreams. Think of the refrigerator, A/C, the computer, telecommunications, etc.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
            Interesting that robotics and automation is responsible for an improvement in living conditions in western societies, and have counterbalanced some of the effects of socialism by making things cheaper while inflation makes the money worth less- the net result is less perceived inflation.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 8 years, 3 months ago
    It's an interesting thought... but dare I to say that when looking at what Ayn would have thought of something you need to look back to where she was, the society where she came from, what happened to it (while she watched), and how close she got to being stuck in that society (as were so many people).

    I put it in this context... Had we fled the USA when I was young because it was being taken over by the communists (extrapolated ahead 50 years it actually seems pretty likely), and then watched as millions of "my people" were exterminated by a series of dictators while I watched from the safety of afar, I, too, would have not only been anti-communist, but would have been sharply pro-capitalist.

    A lot of people forget Ayn came from a country (that was for all purposes a theocracy run by the Eastern Orthodox) in turmoil of revolution as a young child, and then watched from afar as, instead of healing itself, it went further and further into the morass of hell... it's no wonder she not only despised the premise and principles of socialist communism, but (from earlier in her life) was atheistic in her beliefs.

    Taken thusly... it gives an insight to the MIND of Ayn Rand, Why she felt and believed as she did, and why she could write so eloquently and succinctly on the topics of her beliefs, commonly known as "Objectivism", and posit a reasonable and factual argument in support of these beliefs.

    I'll give you the other side of this coin, however, as something ot think about... and it was the subject of a work of alternate reality science fiction - Had the early attempted assassination of FDR been successful, and Long became POTUS instead... and she, raised in aAmerica until she was 6 and fled the oppressive and potentially violent world here it could have become, say, to the safety of South America (I'll pick Colombia just for the sake of naming a place, not for any other good reason), and then wrote about it as a young-to-middle aged adult from that perspective - seeing Colombia as her place of refuge as a child, and the USA as the scene of turmoil, hatred, and brutality - it, too, would have been (from that alternate world / alternate reality view) evil, everything it stood for as being wrong and awful, and the system in Colombia as being ideal.

    I'm not knocking her theory of Objectivism - far from it - but it's good to look at it occasionally, not as a faith system to blindly follow, but what brought about her conception of her reality to conceive of it, and to put it down into words.

    And that she was able to build worlds - in her writings - around it; heroic works of heroic people worthy of legend, warning of the dangers of possibilities - exposes her brilliance. That those who disagree with her premises usually do so violently, forcefully, and with great emotion, says a lot about how well she could elucidate her positions.

    Respectfully submitted for your perusal...
    S
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      One of the things that prompted me to start this post was when one of my current research students, a female from Venezuela, came to me saying that one of the reasons she came here was to flee from Maduro. I had to tell her that America was starting down the same path. I had no good suggestion of where to go instead. Then I thought of Ayn Rand.
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      • Posted by $ Susanne 8 years, 3 months ago
        It is what we stand up and make of it. The easy thing, the lazy thing, the fastest, least painful thing, is to do nothing, and let the moochers and looters and ne'er do wells and especially the dual-named monoparty keep ruling by fiat and maintain the pity-pot woe-is-me "what can I do? Who is John Galt?" lackadaisical attitude from the former the un-citizen-cum-serfs. I have out this in front of many, and in return I get a LOT of excuses why they "CAN'T", and as of yet not a one who says "I have an idea; I'll do this:..."

        Sadly, even here on this list.

        What can YOU do to stop the runaway train into the long dark night to the knights carrying the long dark knives? Or is it just too much work, or too much bother, or too much perceived risk?
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  • Posted by LarryHeart 8 years, 3 months ago
    The US government is totally immoral and corrupt. It does not obey founding principles. There is no way to fix it other than using the amendment process to restore the system based on the founding principles. Here is a blueprint of how to do it. www.TheSocietyProject.org

    Sigh of course the government will just keep getting worse because no one is serious enough to read the material there. Mostly everyone, including in the gulch, just like to talk.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 3 months ago
    She'd say the same now -- because then as now, we're only "the greatest" by comparison to all the others. We've slid way downhill since America's peak of freedom around 1880.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
    Does anyi country fit that description today?
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    • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 3 months ago
      Yes, the United States of America still fits that description. The fact that the people are somewhat unrulely, as they should be living in a non-collectivist country, does not make a decline. Much of the presumed decline is what does not fit the modern shamans' view of how humans should live with respect to some supernatural world and how they might buy their ways into that world after some kind of after death judgement or for some just how to belong after feared judgement by their peers.
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 3 months ago
    Today she would say she was at minimum disappointed with how things have gone. I also believe she would say that it cannot be corrected!
    Without a proven philosophy by which to live all dies. We do have a proven philosophy by which to live "OBJECTIVISM" but we have an abysmally dumbed down populous who just don't have a clue to understanding the philosophy.

    jbrenner if you think that America can change for the good is a pipe dream. It is changing for the bad and that process is as you say speeding up.
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    • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
      Absolutely. unfortunately Romney was right to say that nearly half the people just want freebies. THOSE are the people voting for Hildebeast. Look at the popularity of Sanders, a true socialist. Crooked Hildebeast got rid of him, but not by much.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
      You are most likely right. The discontentment in America right now could mean that an extremely powerful orator on behalf of Objectivism, with the right understanding of how to use social media, could change things for the better quite quickly. Whatever changes happen will take place quite quickly, in whatever direction they go, and barring the unlikely orator I mentioned, I think that it will change for the worse.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
        To start with why do a bunch of objectivists care about the speeches of a bunch of left wing socialist misfits? What has that got to do with objectivisit thinking or more on target to the preservation of a constitutiona republic?

        So what's the game plan now? Wait and see what Trump says....finally. They are Republicans at best and right wing of the left Rinos and Neocons. Go a bit further to the left you find leftists that were Democrats now are DINOS and asked to be called 'Socialists.
        Breaking your heart over a bunch of leftists doesn't seem to accomplish very mouch. Objectively speaking. Wesley are you listening?

        If the entire game plan is keep Hillary out and that's it i would ask "Is there nothing else to these meddlesome priests?"
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
          The reason that Objectivists should care is that America is (arguably was) the only moral society in the history of the world. Producers produce in a moral society. If there is no moral society left, where will producers like us go?

          While I disagree with Trump on quite a few things, he does get capitalism and gets Rand's concept of selfishness. I do not intend to vote for Trump, but he might be the last best hope for preserving a society in which Objectivism could flourish.

          Let us suppose that Islam took over the world. Objectivists would get beheaded if taught in a Sharia-compliant country, just as Christian missionaries are. While it would be optimal for America to be Objectivist, one must have a society that is tolerant of dissent before alternative views can be presented. Think of all the police, military, and professors just fired in Turkey because their views are not in keeping with Erdogan.
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  • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
    There are certainly some wonderful opportunities in the US right now. They must be seized upon.
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    • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
      Care to explain what you see as wonderful opportunities?
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      • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
        The combination of 3D printing, nanotechnology, and biomedical engineering is already starting to show fruit in the area of tissue engineering, but we are seeing just the very first fruits of that. My field 20 years from now will look very little like it does now.
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        • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
          So long as they dont conflict with socialist programs, and they dont interfere with the business models of the big corporations that support cronyism like Hildebeast offers.

          If they do conflict, they will be mired in oceans of regulations and taxes which will either slow down or even stop their adoption.

          I point to the 3d printing of guns as an example. Already anything deemed to be a medical device is controlled by FDA regulations such that small companies have a very difficult time launching new products (I know because I got out of the business entirely just because of that)/
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        • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
          I agree, these are very exciting. They have great potential, if we can keep the government out of the way. Not sure that will happen. One only has to look at vaping. What a great product that actually helps people quit smoking and it is being squashed.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
          you or someone else mentioned the nano gold which reminded me to ask about the use of gold nanobots to target cancer cells. I was astounded when that was released about five years ago asI had just finished a short fiction story using another made uip method when science beat me out for real.
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          • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
            Targeted drug delivery systems with encapsulated nano-Au as the reporter and either the radiation target or with a separately encapsulated chemotherapy dose and with the capability of targeting antibodies specific to cancerous tissues will be among the early fruits of this biomedical revolution. You probably have seen ads on TV that talk about immunotherapies for cancer treatment; these are related to what I discussed earlier, except without the Au for diagnostic purposes.

            This is the kind of field that students who participate in the Florida Tech Nanotechnology Minor Program that is advertised in the Galt's Gulch Marketplace will be prepared for.
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            • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 3 months ago
              The one I heard about on PBS was delivery of the microspeck of gold to the cancer cell then radio waves in effect heated the gold and cooked the cell killing it. Normal body waste disposal did the rest. It was a research center or centers in two universities Texas and California as I recall working on that particular application.
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            • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
              And you actually think these things will be allowed to be produced ? I think they will be sunk into regulatory swampland for years and years. They might be allowed in other countries, like a lot of new drugs. USA is way behind.
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              • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                You could well be right. Whether you are or not depends on whether America decides to re-embrace capitalism and limited government in its next election. If it does not, it will likely never do so again. What did Rand say about inventors?
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                • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
                  I dont know what Rand said about inventors specifically, but in my experience inventions reduce the total cost of living in terms of human labor and raw materials, and allow for standards of living that are better.
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                  • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                    Please clarify the reference. Rand said something about inventors being the last to appear in a civilized society and the first to disappear when that society becomes uncivilized. My memory of where I read that is failing. I am pretty sure it is somewhere near the beginning of AS.
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                    • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
                      I dont remember that, but I would think it was absolutely true. Why invent when you are likely to have whatever you can make from the invention taken away from you. That happens in both uncivilized societies and statist societies.
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                      • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
                        With thanks to Dale Halling, the quote is from Galt's Speech on p. 1047 of AS, "I was an inventor. I was one of a profession that came last in human history and will be first to vanish on the way back to the sub-human."
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                        • Posted by term2 8 years, 3 months ago
                          I think to be a creator requires one to have a very positive view of the world and the people living in it. It is a very personal thing that can exist in a vacuum, but is certainly enhanced or detracted by one's fellow people. Statism really does make it very difficult to want to be creative.
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      • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 3 months ago
        edweaver,

        just yesterday I heard on the news that the number of businesses that are opening in the USA is getting less and less. The idea that there are wonderful opportunities leaves quite a bit to be desired. We have 300 million people here and one sleeping bag company. That suggests more could open and be profitable, but that is not the case and will not happen anytime soon if ever.
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        • Posted by edweaver 8 years, 3 months ago
          I've heard the same. I believe there are at least a number reasons for this decline. Rules & regulations top the list for risk takers. But I think a bigger reason is students are being taught to grow up and get a job, not start a business. IMHO that is another progressive value. The more people that are reliant on someone else, the greater control the movement has over them. While small business is the lifeblood of this country, businesses that are too big to fail are the lifeblood of progressives.
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          • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 3 months ago
            apples do not fall far from trees!
            those who came to the USA from Europe in the 1800's encouraged their off spring to get educations. for the next 100 years that attitude prevailed, however once the government got involved in the education of the populous things began to change and it has gotten to where we are today. so many, most of the apples are rotten.
            look at the arab world versus the Israel world. in Israel they educate their off spring and there is progress. in the arab world they read the Koran and that is their education so again we see what the arab youth are exposed too. the Israelis see new warriors and kill the youth if necessary but the arabs see knowledge and that is more dangerous to them than bullets. apples do not fall far from trees.

            in the USA we have the same lone wolf activity from our citizens because they have these detrimental examples to follow. apples do not fall far from trees.

            the end result is what we are seeing almost daily with a government that as far as I am concerned does not care about the demise. maybe the historians will see what has been happening clearly but if they do and write about it who will they have that has the ability to not only read it but comprehend it. apples do not fall far from trees!
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        • Posted by $ 8 years, 3 months ago
          The example you use regarding your sleeping bag company actually proves my point. Because there are so few thinkers out there right now, an enterprising individual like yourself, wiggys, can monopolize an entire market. (For the record, I like monopolies when I am allowed to have one.)
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          • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 3 months ago
            monopolize the market, no. just have the best that is available. but other bags are sold so I do not have a monopoly. there are other reasons which have been note by others why it is so difficult to start a business. mine goes back to 1988 when there weren't so many regulations. As for so few thinkers, so few of us maybe, but also there are thinkers who think I will not start a business.
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