Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?
Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 5 months ago to Philosophy
I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.
Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.
A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]
Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.
During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.
Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.
Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”
The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”
Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.
I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?
Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.
A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]
Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.
During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.
Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.
Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”
The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”
Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.
I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?
Previous comments...
The objection that Objectivist have about Liberatians is that by failing to adopt objectivism system in full, Liberatians simply cannot defend the objectivist principles they like. The reason is the principles necessary follow from the system.
I like to compare Objectivism to Mathematics. It is like Liberatians are saying I like the law of multiplication but I am not too keen on the law of equality. The Objectivist says you dupe! The law of multiplication necessary depends on the law of equality!
This is why some Objectivist may get frustrated by Liberatians who adopt some Objectivist's principles while rejecting others. I don't excuse Objectivist who use ad hominem in their rebuke of Liberatians. They should stay on point. To support the Objectivist's principles you like, the entire system of Objectivism is required. You cannot reasonably cherry pick from Objectivism. Such as simply adopting NAP and rejecting the the primacy of existence.
Restated, the question is: how does the Objectivist principle not to initiate the use of force exclude libertarians whose only common principle is “I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals?” I find myself very close to most Objectivist doctrine and the LP. When I make a Venn diagram, I see no mutual exclusion between them. Have you done a Venn diagram?
Actually, Leonard Peikoff did a podcast explaining that liberty isn't by itself a very sound basis for a moment, which the libertarians as a term is based. However, he did say that Objectivist may work with Liberation to achieve common political goals.
The best I can do to answer your question.
The “libertarians” . . . plagiarize Ayn Rand’s principle that no man may initiate the use of physical force, and treat it as a mystically revealed, out-of-context absolute . . . .
In the philosophical battle for a free society, the one crucial connection to be upheld is that between capitalism and reason. The religious conservatives are seeking to tie capitalism to mysticism; the “libertarians” are tying capitalism to the whim-worshipping subjectivism and chaos of anarchy. To cooperate with either group is to betray capitalism, reason, and one’s own future.
To “put up a straw man” is to intentionally caricature a person’s argument with the aim of attacking the caricature rather than the actual argument. Misrepresenting, misquoting, misconstruing, and oversimplifying an opponent’s position are all means by which one can commit this fallacy. The straw man argument is usually more absurd than the actual argument, making it an easier target to attack. It may also lure the other person toward defending the more ridiculous argument rather than their original one.
Almossawi, Ali. An Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments (Kindle Locations 133-137). The Experiment. Kindle Edition.
Even though I agree with the vast majority of the political stances of a Libertarian, I come to those beliefs in different ways, primarily the individual comes first. I disagree with the Libertarian stance on drugs because a personal freedom to use drugs effects the society that I live in and I don’t want my tax dollar going to these losers throwing their life down the drain (moocher). If we didn’t have a welfare state, I might have a different opinion.
A Libertarian is closer to an anarchist then an Objectivists. Libertarians are 100% on for personal freedoms where an Objectivists is more in the just leave me alone camp, in my opinion. i.e. I don’t do heroin because it will affect my family and I would be a drain on society.
'I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.'
The above requires me to be a productive member of society, heroin use would preclude this…
Which I did.
Sigh.
So now I call myself an independent.
Me also a dino carnivore, me is adverse to any limp-wristed namby pamby NAP, especially toward those who wish to disarm me, tell me what I'm supposed to PC think about eating meat or climate change and expect me to bow down to any Muslim whim, get swarmed by mooching illegals or tolerate some "I feel like a woman today" guy following a little girl into the ladies room.
The best defense is offense against any evil aggressive affront.
I am dino~
Hear me ROAR!
Such is what pundits were saying about Trump at the get-go. That is, the get-go before Trump had a chance to start trying hard.
You reinforce my opinion of Johnson as a loser, though.
Selecting these two Republican ex-Governors as candidates is but another compromise.
The media and the debate organizers want the debates to be just another reality show and the result is ignorant savages like Clinton, Bush, Obama, Clinton, and Trump. Put them all in a leaky rubber boat and let the sharks eat the lot.
Now what you say may be true of the liberals who pretend that they are libertarians and say they are libertarian. I have met quite a few of those ignoramuses who hate to pay the taxes that liberals impose but still want the liberal programs.
I agree that the current candidates (especially Weld the Wicked) are a compromise on libertarian principles.
Johnson floating to the top kind of surprised me.
Objectivism lives in the ideal world of the imagination. Libertarians live in the frustrating and imperfect real world where, making things work means compromise.
Hold out for perfection or compromise but, whichever, be yourself. Who cares what label people apply to you? Screw the labels. If Ayn Rand doesn't like it she can come back and argue her corner.
The LP, at least as it has been run to date, is all about taking and publicizing idealist, absolutist positions, and hoping to draw the major parties toward those positions following the model of the Socialist Party in the 1920s (which never elected anyone to a higher office than mayor of Milwaukee, but ended up with the Democrats adopting its entire platform). But as long as the LP follows that model, it makes more sense for gradualist candidates to run in the major parties, not the LP. Of course, Johnson did run as a Republican in 2012, but got nowhere.
You can argue with the dead but not the living. Objectivists demand facts and proof and accept nothing that isn't realistic and without understanding it's nature. They don't get frustrated if the answer isn't to their liking they just keep observing and and testing and never accept wrong answers.
That is what people who have no morals, values, ethics or self respect do and then try to window dress it into something acceptable to the rest of us. Problem is we don't absolve you.Only you can do that. People who can absolve themselves of being second raters or willing to accept false premises fall in a special category called amoral. Some folks call them politicians though.
Objectivism could be purged of these contradictions and come out stronger, but I don't think anyone in the organizations wants to take on the job. It's like the situation 60 years ago, after Stalin's death, when no other Soviet wanted to be the first to denounce him.
Finally, I am concerned that your statement represents a double standard. Is it not possible that some libertarians consider objectivists as non-Libertarian due to their support of wars against Saudi and Iran?
I take a fairly pragmatic view on foreign policy; I think a country has to. Which of course will get me flamed because "pragmatism isn't objectivist", but how else do you decide when you don't know everything and your principles don't always give a clear answer either?
(1) Communication usually fails, except by accident.
(2) If a message can be interpreted in several ways, it will be interpreted in a manner that maximizes damage.
(3) There is always someone who knows better than you what you meant by your message.
Restated: Whenever you say something, if there is any possible way for another to misunderstand what you say, you will be misunderstood in the worst possible way, at the worst possible time, and then they will tell you what you “really” meant by your message.