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  • Posted by Lucky 10 years, 6 months ago
    I will join Map here in being appalled.
    The question of whether the person was truly of the sex they portrayed is not
    relevant, an assault took place, it was unprovoked, bystanders became voyeurs and not defenders of the victim.
    There may be a few old fuddy duddies here who (like me?) find a lot objectionable, orange hair, rude words in tattoos, not being sure if a person dressed as sex A is in fact sex B,
    such is life.
    As our younger generation say- 'Chill it'.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 6 months ago
      Sorry to disagree, but I have trouble with people passing judgment on others because of their looks... Ever talk to any of them, rther than judge from afar? I bet... none of them bite. --shrug-- I've hired some of those kids, not on their looks, but on their KS&A's... talked to them and found them fascinating. Sometimes brilliant.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
        "passing judgement on others because of their looks"... prejudice is a survival instinct. I pass judgment based on looks all the time. But, you go ahead and pet a rattlesnake if you want to. I'm not going to waste time trying to determine if what looks like a rattlesnake is a harmless bull snake; I'm killing the darn snake.

        If you don't want to be judged negatively for your looks... then *choose* a look that reflects positive qualities. Choose not to pierce your body. Choose not to use it as a graffiti wall. Choose to groom yourself in a respectable way.

        There's a difference between judging somebody because he wears clothes that don't fit, and judging somebody because he doesn't pull his darned oversized, overpriced pants back up over his ass. The former indicates poverty; the latter indicates a lack of good judgment and weak character.
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
      The question of whether the person was truly of the sex portrayed is relevant to the veracity of the article. Where they a "pre-op"? Were they a drag queen who claimed to be trans once they were assaulted?
      The claim is that they were assaulted because they were trans... but again, how did the assailants know? Were they assaulted in a "normal" mugging, and then stripped once they were somehow found out?

      Hey, I don't agree with "hate crime" laws, but if we're going to have them, they should at least be applied accurately.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 6 months ago
    If I may...

    Appalled - is an understatement. Felonious assault against someone for a strangers personal life? And the crowd cheering? How 4th grader bully schoolyard are these adults? Betcha they have every justification for assaulting and prejudging these 2 people who were probably minding their own business... Who, like you, woke up that morning thinking how great it is to be alive...

    I was wondering... what if it was your daughter, instead of these 2 strangers? She had put her hair in spikes to be silly, just this one time. And those people thought she was some "deviant anarchist punk, probably some dyke, that deserved it"?
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  • Posted by FlukeMan2 10 years, 6 months ago
    I'm a Latter-day Saint so I don't jive too well with the whole homosexual/transgender thing, but thanks to my Mormon upbringing I will stand up for those being harassed (including those who make ungodly choices).

    I pledge to take action to defend people being assaulted in this way. Who's with me?
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  • Posted by aogilmore 10 years, 6 months ago
    Of course assault was not warranted but it did look like the fat woman (the trans?) was taunting a group of men. It is unclear if s/he actually initiated physical contact. This video is not real clear. Doesn't MARTA keep video in all trains? Most transit agencies do. This needs to be reviewed before folks start taking sides and making accusations of LGBT hatred by the city. In fact, another article on the referenced site lists Atlanta as one of the most "gay friendly" cities, right behind San Francisco.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
    Using physical force against someone is, generally, not excusable. But understanding the reasons is also a generally good idea. Let's put it this way - if a person decides that they want to physically change their sex, for whatever reason, why should this be advertised? Change your sex in private and there is no reason why strangers should even be aware of it. But, more often then not, being private about it is just not good enough. They need to advertise it; they need to make a statement; they need to rub in to all others. Why? They are challenging other people, so why are they surprised that others respond? Did they really expect the response from most people to be hugs and kisses? Really?

    I have a person at work who is in the middle of his/her transgender transformation. OK, fine, I don't really care that much which bathroom he/she prefers at the moment. What does bother me is that in a professional organization this person comes to work in less than mini skirts and other dress attributes that would get an award on Times Square and in every way tries to provoke a response and then immediately complain to management. So, really, this is not an issue of sex change, but of behavior and constant challenges to everyone around. BTW, on the website where this story is published, notice the reference to Obama: "President of Our Hearts Barack Obama Proclaims LGBT Pride Month" - again, do they really expect everyone to embrace them?
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    • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
      That depends on how well a transgender individual blends in with the rest of the population. Most do typically try to present in a way that is as gender normative as possible, though some can't pass even if they wanted to.
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      • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
        The one person in my office that I talked about above has chosen to wear vulgar closing and to act as provocatively as possible. Those are choices that the person makes.
        When one purposefully acts provocatively, he shouldn't be surprised at the response. Unfortunately, the current legislation makes them a protected species and instead of being rebuffed for a specific behavior, others have to bear it, until it blows up as it did in Atlanta.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
          For some reason, I have a sneaking suspicion that you're not giving me an accurate picture...
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          • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
            In this particular case, quite accurate. The person is a very capable and knowledgeably scientist with great respect for his work. His personal problems for wanting to be a woman do not concern me or most other people there. Outside of my family, I really don't care who is a man or who is a woman. But when a person clearly and deliberately tries to provoke others through vulgar dress and various little actions and then immediately runs to management to complaint about everyone else, who should others threat them. Basically, not getting closer then the length of a ten foot pole. It seems like a very clear cut picture to me - this person needs to prove something to everyone. So, the issue is the behavior, not the gender. As to why he feels the need to prove something - I really don't care.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
              Yes; they don't want to admit there's something wrong with them, they've been culturally conditioned to believe that there's nothing wrong with them, and therefore they need validation from "normal" people that they are, in fact, "normal".

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            • -1
              Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
              Yeah, the more you say, the less I believe you. You're just digging yourself in deeper at this point.
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              • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
                If you have a substantative point to make, please do so. If you find anything that I've said factually incorrect, please correct it. Otherwise, it is unclear to me what are you trying to say.
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                • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
                  My point is you're not trying to look at the situation from her perspective, and you're accusing her of "provoking" other people when really it's most likely the other people who are at fault for not being accepting. Seriously, I've seen enough of these cases to know that's almost always how it goes.
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                  • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
                    Seriously, I don't want to accuse you of bias, but is there an acceptable explanation for wearing vulgar clothing (there little of it that he or she wears) in a professional organization? Sure, you can say that it's vulgar by "my definition," but it is deficient even in square inches of coverage! If any other person were to dress in that manner, they would have been told to go home. So, if I'm missing her perspective, please explain it to me.
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                    • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
                      If she transitioned fairly recently, she's most likely just going through her "teenage girl" phase. Every young girl goes through a phase where they like to wear skimpy outfits. When a male-to-female transgender individual transitions, they go through that same stage as well, it just happens a bit later in life (assuming they don't transition in their actual teenage years, of course).
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                      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
                        There is no "she".
                        He's not a young girl, surgery and drug therapy notwithstanding.

                        There's no rational comparison of cause and effect.
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
                          Of course she's not young physically, but she is young mentally. There are certain psychological stages that every woman goes through, regardless of age.
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                          • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
                            You said earlier that "it's most likely the other people who are at fault for not being accepting." That is a very slippery slope. There are certain societal norms that must be followed, to a certain degree, if the society is to function. Accepting anyone and anything because their perspective is just as valid could be dangerous proposition. Yesterday, I killed someone because they really annoyed me and I just couldn't help myself; let's celebrate our diversity! Oh, OK, that was using physical force, so that's a no-no. Fine, how about if I paste Playboy or Playgirl spreads in my office, or wear a swastika, or turn my office into an altar by pasting icons and crosses all over the desk and the walls, just like people do with pictures of their kids or Internet diplomas? I'll just paste Jesus all over. Wouldn't the same people that scream for tolerance and diversity label me as intolerant, racist and fire me? But I forgot - tolerance and diversity works in one direction only.
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                          • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
                            Physically, we're talking about someone over 50. Now, do I and all others really have to care about someone's second childhood problems? Let's look at this from my perspective - I come to work to do a job, get paid, and in the process interact with professional people on a professional level. If someone has personal problems, including myself, I expect them to leave those problems at home. Is that unreasonable? Do I have to play psychologist instead of being an engineer?
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                  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
                    "Her" who?

                    Taking your agenda to its ultimate destination, "Him" and "her" will one day be replaced in the Newspeak dictionary by either "them" or "it". I'm betting on "them", since that fits the collectivist mindset so well... Shades of "Anthem"...
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                    • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
                      I would never use "it" to refer to a person, as doing so is dehumanizing and degrading. Though many people do consider themselves to be gender neutral, and prefer to be referred to by the pronoun "they." And no, the logical conclusion is not about replacing or eliminating any words, but rather simply about allowing each person to choose the pronouns which they prefer on an individual level. I don't see how allowing a greater range of individual freedom could possibly be called "collectivist." Forcing people to conform to the pronouns YOU think they should have is the real collectivism.

                      George Orwell's Newspeak concept was about LIMITING speech, not about changing speech.
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                      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 6 months ago
                        it was also about constantly changing the meaning of words which can be very confusing and passive aggressive. An example I will give is are you Black? African-American? Negro? A certain tribe? A certain nation? You can call your own group a name but if I say it I am wrong and degrading? How the heck am I know that?! and even if I do-are you not trying to control me by calling me either ignorant for not knowing or racist for using the wrong term? crazy
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                        • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
                          Well, there's nothing that can be done about words changing their meaning over time. Fluctuation in vernacular is a natural and inherent part of language. But even still, George Orwell described it as happening at the command of a government authority. I sincerely doubt he was trying to imply that natural change was a problem.

                          But you do bring up a legitimate point about how other people might not always know which terms are considered offensive or not, which is why I personally think it's best not to worry about it too much, and instead judge people by their actions, attitude, and intentions, rather than by the words they happen to choose.
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                          • Posted by khalling 10 years, 6 months ago
                            and then, all of a sudden, someone calls me a racist...no-keeping people not knowing what term(s) are acceptable is a strategy. It is intended to be consfusing and club oriented. It is a tactic meant to be controlling. Look at the Ru Paul twitter drama lately...double "tranny" indemnity. Transgenders offending transgenders with their own terms. Enough is enough. My mom always said, "I'll call you late-for-supper if I want to." and she did.
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                            • Posted by strugatsky 10 years, 6 months ago
                              Yes, I agree completely that changing words and confusing people as to what terms to use is a control strategy. George Orwell showed it best in "1984" where 2 + 2 = whatever the Party wants it to be. The Soviets used that strategy, where yesterday's heroes were tomorrow's villains and vice verse. A good Party member would never question the meaning.
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  • Posted by Notperfect 10 years, 6 months ago
    We have two Trans women who work where my wife and I work. When we met I just thought they were sisters until I was told different. I still treated them as the way I felt. I love my Lord Jesus more than life , but who am I to judge. This should not take place because it just shows me that some men cannot handle the fact of not being a real man. I guess my parents knew how to raise up a child right. I will tell you that both of those women where I work have their problems as we all do, but you make your world as you want it to be. We met one night and I will help anyone to do their jobs better if need be, but one of them thought it might be funny to lay some feel sorry for me on the table. It don't work that way in my book. We have not seen them in a while, but I have gotten over that and when I see them again I guess it will be just like when I met them. The cover will still look the same as the book I thought it was.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 6 months ago
    That's too bad. But, people need to understand how eager and willing our fellow Americans often are to assault others, strip them down of their freedoms, liberty, clothing, etc. This doesn't surprise me at all.
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  • Posted by RonC 10 years, 6 months ago
    As a confirmed libertarian, I don't care who you love or how you dress, just leave me to do what I do in peace. I'm not sure who was the victim in this video. Obviously the viewer is under assault, but it's pretty easy to push the "close" button. I don't think the girls would have been assaulted had they held the handrail and minded their own business. It seems to me their business was foisted upon all within earshot. If they had simply went their own way I don't think anyone would have noticed. They certainly looked as good as many people I see on the street everyday. Does the flaunting and trash mouthing warrant a physical response? I don't know, I wasn't there. Maybe. Maybe there was minor contact not clearly visible on that camera. I don't have the need to watch it again.

    The liberals like to argue "free speech" means you can say anything you wish, when they are supporting one of their causes. That's not true. you can't yell "Fire" in a theater or public venue unless there is a fire. That issue has been to the supreme court. Pornography was deemed to be a local issue. If it is something considered offensive in that city, town, or village.... Was it offensive? To me, it is against nature, but I don't care enough to be troubled by it.

    Ben Franklin is sometimes attributed with saying, "An armed society is a polite society." IMHO all could have used a bit more politeness in their behavior. And, once again, we are in a venue where there is little expectation of an armed society.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
      When you say "it is against nature," what are you referring to, exactly? Pornography or transsexualism? The way you worded your sentence was unclear.
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      • Posted by RonC 10 years, 6 months ago
        for me, confusion about sexual identity is against nature. I don't understand it. I also don't understand gambling addiction, suicide, and day trading the stock market. I think there are some things it's ok not to have a full understanding of. Please take that in a libertarian context. It's not my business who people fall in love with or how they express their love. And my life requires a bit of privacy and modesty.
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        • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 6 months ago
          I can relate, Ron.

          I know some may find it offensive but...if a man looks at Sofia Vergara and feels nothing, I feel concern for that man. And, I'm not being sarcastic. I just "don't understand it". But, I respect my gay friends, and appreciate that they respect me and my family.

          I even know some women who will admit that they find Sofia attractive. It must be that the curves and softness has some sort of biological trigger. When I stop liking that you can put me in a pine box...

          The actress who played Dagny Taggart in ASII?...Yep. No complaints here.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
            Samantha Mathis. She was also in "The Super Mario Brothers Movie" and "Broken Arrow".

            I also find her very attractive, physically. Considering that her next project was where she portrayed half of a lesbian pair... not so much mentally (or maybe I should say "philosophically").
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    • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
      "you can't yell "Fire" in a theater or public venue unless there is a fire. "

      And once again that bastard Holmes claims another rhetorical victim.

      Yes... you *can*, per the Constitution. Only if there is property damage or someone is injured as a result should there be any repercussions for shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater that is not on fire.

      I'm not a liberal, but you can say anything you wish... in the public arena. The 1st Amendment specifically prohibits the government from preventing you.

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  • Posted by bridgetlynn 10 years, 6 months ago
    I'm appalled and disgusted by the assault - no one has the right to do that, absent a threat to their own bodily integrity - but am irked by the whole concept of "transgender." Reality is what it is, and the entire thing is an exercise in denying reality and then calling other people "intolerant" and "phobic" for refusing to play along.

    Assault is an evil response to that.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
      Transexualism is a scientifically recognized medical condition with verified origins in biology and genetics. It is not a "denial of reality." Do some research on a topic before you speak out about it. :P
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      • Posted by bridgetlynn 10 years, 6 months ago
        Please cite sources before telling me that I'm wrong. Also, pease logically distinguish it from any other delusion of the mind. Last I checked, schizophrenia has verifiable roots in biology and genetics, but that does not make it any less of a problem, and we aren't the weird ones for not hearing the voices.
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
        By a "science" that won't recognize homosexuality as an illness. More politics than science, methinks.

        Diabetes has its origins in biology and genetics, too. That doesn't keep it from being a disease in need of proper treatment. Indulging a diabetic in the delusion that they're normal, and therefore can eat an entire German chocolate cake without consequences is the equivalent of mutilating and perverting a person's body rather than treating that disorder.

        And you're being disingenuous... not *all* sexual deviancy is a result of biology and genetics; probably not even most, I suspect. But, you want to hide the majority behind the skirts of the minority.

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        • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
          Science won't recognize homosexuality as an illness because it isn't...
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
            No, it's not recognized as an illness by psychologists and psychiatrists in positions of power because of the political clout (and possibly personal proclivities) of those people and their cronies in government and media.

            We've gone over this again, and again, Humpty. The human reproductive organs exist to procreate the species. They do not exist for the purpose of pleasure; rather they provide addictive pleasure (on the order of heroin) in order to encourage animals to engage in the reproductive process.

            The bonding of romantic feelings exists to ensure the survival of the offspring until they, in turn, are able to reproduce.

            The imperfection of reproduction (that is, that every sexual encounter doesn't result in offspring) is an effect of evolution in action. If every time she were mounted, a female produced offspring, that would actually be detrimental to the species, particularly in the wild.

            Any sexual attraction or romantic feeling that is not aligned with this evolutionary imperative is, to one degree or another, an illness.

            This is obvious to people who recognize sex as reproduction, and seems impossible to recognize for people who can only think of sex as a means of pleasure.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
    So were the assault victims women or men? You and the article are unclear.

    I have to wonder how the question even came up?

    This sounds terrible. Almost as bad as what happened to Twana Brawley...

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  • Posted by CTYankee 10 years, 6 months ago
    Bizarre, and inaccurate. There were no women assaulted, they were men dressed like women. Perhaps the other passengers cheered because they were unimpressed with the carryings-on of the people involved. Most people still enjoy the circus.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago
      So the way people dress justifies assault?
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      • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 6 months ago
        Where did you read anyone assert that the assault was justified?

        CTYankee is inaccurate, however. Men dressed as women shouldn't be an issue since women commonly dress like men nowadays. These were men *pretending* to be women. Another thing entirely. (an example; Eddie Izzard commonly dresses as a woman, but he doesn't try to pretend to be a woman).

        Still doesn't justify assault. But it does explain it.
        A woman walking alone down a dark alley in a Florida town during spring break, in a bikini, doesn't justify her subsequent assault and rape... but it does explain it.
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