Galt's Gulch

Is it possible to bully an Objectivist?

Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago to The Gulch: General
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The other day someone told me that he thought Donald Trump was a bully. Bullying has been an issue that is talked about a lot and I do believe it is a major problem especially among young people. I started wondering if it was possible to bully Ayn Rand or any Objectivist for that matter. Parents and teachers seem to be able to identify the problem but as is often the case their solutions are misguided. Teaching Objectivism at a young age would give people the tools they need to deal with any person or situation. I can't imagine Ayn Rand needing a "safe space". This would be a much better country if Rand was required reading in high school.

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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 7 months ago
    Anyone can bully with force or threat of force anyone else insufficiently able in the situation to resist or escape it. It is not about what you know philosophically but about the initiation of force on the part of the bully.
    Now being philosophically and psychologically well grounded is certainly a help in these and other situations. You wouldn't develop a victim mentality for instance.
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 8 years, 7 months ago
    Yes. The question is, is it effective? That would depend upon the type of bullying and the strength of the objectivists' conviction and reasoning. We see many blogs that are filled with bullies that will wear you out by sheer volume if they can't do it by reason. Force is used and sanctioned by government to bully all, including objectivists. For those well steeped in objectivist thought and confident in their convictions it is easier to walk away. Reason is not automatic. "Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone."
    Ayn Rand
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    • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago
      Hi O.A.. One of my favorite quotes. Effectiveness is the key. I remember watching interviews Rand did with Mike Wallace and Phil Donahue. They hit her with everything they had and in my opinion they were frustrated at the fact that they couldn't shake her. Convictions of beliefs is an excellent point.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 7 months ago
    It's not that many years ago since one of the significant challenges to be overcome in childhood was to develop sufficient self esteem to be able to face down or 'deal with' the bullies in life. That was once seen as a necessary part of development and readiness to deal with adult life. It seems to me that Ayn Rand succeeded in that challenge. I have to say that I've never met a bully that could convince me to run, comply, or cry--but I met many that tried, and still do today. I suspect that Rand did too.
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    • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago
      I wonder if a true Objectivist even sees it as bullying? As Rand said it is best to ignore those who don't use reason. Teaching children the principles of Objectivism would go a long way in reducing bullying problems.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 7 months ago
        Oh I think O's see it as attempts to bully, but also recognize the lack of performance and self esteem behind it. Remember that to an O, self defense is not something to feel guilty about, though walking around or away from is not to be ashamed of either. And, yes I very much agree that instilling the principles of Objectivism at an early age would definitely reduce bullying.

        By the way, good post rich.
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 8 years, 7 months ago
    Do you pay your income tax, property tax.... then are you not being bullied? You pay under the threat of if you do not you're property or your liberty will be removed.

    Its not different than the bully in grade school that wanted your lunch money or he would beat you up. The same principles are at play and we can certifiably be bullied regardless of our principles. It only ends when enough of us say no more and refuse to be bullied any longer.
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    • Posted by rockclimber510 8 years, 7 months ago
      I agree. I believe the government bullies all of us. In Atlas shrugged, Dagny is bullied by the government, and continues to take it. Rather than standing up to the bullies in the only way she could, she wears herself out in attempting to keep everything alive. She follows the rules the bullies require of her. I think America is in a very similar state, where we're all fighting, but still attempting to follow the rules set by the same people who are bullying us. All it does is make us tired, which gives them more power. We're in a dangerous place. Thank goodness for Galt's Gulch!
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      • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago
        As tough a character as Dagny was I hadn't thought of that. She stood up to it but she was being bullied. Maybe the lesson from Rand was that sometimes it's best to walk away.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 8 years, 7 months ago
    Teaching somebody the finer points of debate is nice and all, but my boy just got his black belt...just in case. Frankly, bullies understand a knuckle sandwich delivered through busted teeth. Works every time. Remember that force is still a language often still spoken.
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    • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago
      Nice. Martial Arts are consistent with Objectivism because I believe they teach you not to initiate force. Should it be necessary then you can kick some serious butt.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 7 months ago
        Apply Zen and the precepts of Lao Tze some of the most devasting force is not physical at all. Ignoring people is a wonderful tool to express their non value. Usually they will hang themselves in a pique...of self righteous whatever and provide a good laugh.

        end result they go to their safe spot nose in corner the discussion continues
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        • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago
          I am applying that to someone right now. Amazing some of the immature things a person will do to try and get your attention. As Rand said reason is not automatic, this person clearly doesn't understand so I am leaving them alone.
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  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 8 years, 7 months ago
    Yes. O's can be bullied. Bullies can come in many forms. Not all of them give you wedgies, and steal your lunch money. The best bullies are very subtle and sneaky in their bullying and use tactics like making you feel guilty, or mean etc. to get what they want. I would call Lillian a bully to Hank, and Jiim a bully to Cheryl. Jim was not as skilled as Lillian. Sometimes it takes a while to realize you are being bullied.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 7 months ago
    it's tried here a lot but most aren't so thin skinned I tend to agree with your basic comment. My credo said all enemies foreign or domestic and set no time limits as one example. Objectivism is not a place for safe space since it's all internal thinking. How do you cordon off part of your brain?
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    • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago
      I wonder what Ayn Rand would think of todays college students? The solutions to bullying that I see seem to concentrate on the person doing the bullying instead of toughening up the person on the receiving end.
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      • Posted by khalling 8 years, 7 months ago
        I am posting today a great article by Camille Paglia addressing PC and historical context. Namely the stark differences between college protests of the 60s and what is happening on college campuses today.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 7 months ago
          It dovetails nicely with my experiences and is what drove me from university to the military and eventually to an external degree program with it's opportunities to pick and choose professors to a greater degree. There was one down in Southern Oregon that at the same time was the faculty adviser to both YAF and what did they call it the donkey side. No one I know of ever figured out his true leanings. he did political consulting on the side.,
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      • Posted by rockclimber510 8 years, 7 months ago
        Bullying is a more complex issue today, then it was in Rand's day. While kids have always had to have a certain thickness to their skins, today, the bullying is persistent. Words can strike, and fall to the ground, but we are now raising our children in a time where the words don't disappear. A single insult written on social media will be seen over and over. Add to that the fact that the insult can then be liked by many people who probably wouldn't have been there had the insult been verbal, and it is like an entire gym chanting the insult over and over. The same social media that connects them to the people who love and praise them also shows the vile messages. They have no where to turn in the digital realm to escape it.

        It's easy to say they just need tougher skin, but it's not the same issues faced even 20 years ago in school. I think in some regards, and in general, the kids today have tougher skin than they did in Rand's day.

        I say this not saying we don't need to continue to work on toughening their skin, but educating the masses to realize that there is a difference between verbally attacking someone, and digitally doing so is also important. When you say something mean, you feel bad. When you write something mean, there's a certain amount of anonymity that allows the bully to not have the negative effects of the action while amplifying the negative effects on the receiver of the attack.
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        • Posted by richrobinson 8 years, 7 months ago
          Excellent points Rock. I still think that the Objectivist philosophy is the best for preparing young people to deal with this issue. I think you are right about how it has changed. I wouldn't be surprised if Facebook take a stronger stance soon against on;ine bullying.
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