Obamrica

Posted by jyokela 10 years, 7 months ago to Government
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All this separatist talk about Ukraine has got me thinking that I would like America to separate from Obamrica!

America, just say "NO!" to Obamrica!


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  • Posted by Wanderer 10 years, 7 months ago
    Most nation states don't succeed unless their populations are, to a great degree, homogeneous (to borrow a mathematics term). That doesn't mean the population's got to be one race or religion, but its people must have more in common than in difference. Ukraine's breakup began in the early thirties, when Stalin starved much of the indigenous population and replaced it with Russians. He dehomogeneousized the population. One of the reasons Europe fell so easily into WW2 is because the nation states drawn after WW1 comprised nonhomogeneous populations. The unrest was there before Hitler's annexations. Our open border with Mexico is doing the same thing to us, dehomogeneousizing our population, especially in the southwest. Spend some time in south Texas and you'll find many of the last few decade's latin immigrants haven't assimilated and have no interest in doing so. Get to know them and many will admit sympathy with LaRaza; not only are they not like us, they don't want to be. (They want to be Mexican and take the southwestern US with them, having been told, and believing we took the "rich" part of Mexico and left them the dregs, not accepting the difference between San Diego and Tijuana isn't climate or topography or mineral wealth, it's the difference between our legal and economic system and Mexico's legal and economic system.) Living within the United States of America are tens of millions of people who actively wish to be something other than Americans, and tens of millions, perhaps a hundred million more who are ambivalent about being Americans because they don't know anything else.

    Watch Ukraine. If we don't reform our immigration policies Ukraine is our future.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 7 months ago
      A great observation and precisely what is happening today through our various social policies of "divide and conquer". What made America great? We saw it in abundance throughout WWII - we sacrificed, came together, and overcame the odds to win. The overwhelmingly vast majority supported the same cause. Can you imagine what would happen today if everyone were able to do the same thing again?

      What keeps us from doing it? First, we are told that pursuing our own interests can not possibly coincide with others' - that everything is a zero-sum game in which some win and some lose. This is the first great fallacy we must overcome.

      The second is that there is nothing we individually can do to affect anything, so any effort is futile. I call this the Borg mindset (my apologies to Gene Roddenberry). It is precisely BECAUSE everyone individually makes up their mind to do something that things change.

      Third, that part of getting things to change is by advocating the need. That means getting the word out and giving everyone the chance to decide for themselves whether or not to support the cause.

      All three of these are vehemently opposed by our current Administration, whether by IRS targeting, misinformation, or social welfare programs.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
      Moreover, many of those who wish to be something other than Americans have made it fashionable for many Americans to be ambivalent or even hate their own country. Since the TARP bailout, I have not been proud of what was my country and is no longer figuratively my country. Obama has achieved his fundamental transformation, and that is why so many of us have shrugged.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
      The non-homogeneousness of states you cite is called Balkanization - and it is happening in Europe big time and you can see it in the US between the cities and the non-urbanized areas.
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    • Posted by preimert1 10 years, 7 months ago
      Interesting thought: what if (hypothetically) we sold that part of south Texas back to Mexico? That should make those "tens of millions" happy, yes?
      They wouldn't have to put up with gringos anymore.
      Maybe an anti-Gadsden Purchase too.
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      • Posted by Wanderer 10 years, 7 months ago
        Preimert;

        Texas is a special case, since the people of Texas fought for and achieved independence from Mexico. While foreigners joined the fight, about half of those who fought against Santa Anna and declared themselves an independent republic were native Tejanos, so it's tougher for Mexicans to make the case we "stole" Texas. However, in the case of the lands that traded hands in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, because the difference between conditions north and south of the border results from differences in government, a few years after we cede those lands back to Mexico they'll become violent, poverty stricken shells of themselves, and the Mexicans living in them will complain we somehow "ruined" the territories before returning them, and they'll once again migrate north across the new porous border to participate illegally in the smaller, but still more vibrant US economy. Mexicans are no different than anyone else in the world; they blame their failings on whomever and whatever is convenient. Most of them don't see that the lands of Guadalupe Hidalgo and Gadsden were once exactly like Mexico, and if returned, would once again become exactly like Mexico.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
    Rico and rica are the male and female Spanish forms of rich, aren't they? Perhaps we should now call America as Amepobre or Amemalo? Personally I like the evil connotation of the latter.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 7 months ago
    What we are is what we let happen. We were given a gift, "A Republic, if you can keep it" as Ben Franklin said. From that point on we have caused the greatest explosion of human happiness and freedom to deteriorate until we have what we have today. The solution can be figured out by a 10nth grader. But it's like being on a diet. Putting on the pounds is quick and easy, taking them off is slow and difficult. We were fortunate that unlike Europe, where nations grew out of clans and factions. We are the first nation that was invented by a group of mostly rational men and because of the freedom it provided. Homogenisity (I know, there's no such word but there ought to be) didn't enter into it.

    Shrugging in the Ayn Rand sense is not the way we will regain the freedoms of the past. Ms. Rand used a ploy to make a point. It was a marvelous way to do it, the woman could really write, but it cannot work even if it's limited to America. Let's not shrug, let's think.
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    • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 7 months ago
      yes, Herb, let's think -- as Rand did -- about how the morally capitalistic people of the U.S. might exercise their power to hold onto our freedoms and reverse this fascist trend (where DC commands the private sector).
      Rand sought a method which she could share in a book. I see the AS story as a time-compressed re-claiming of the country. how might it REALLY happen?
      Rick Perry has me thinking east texas, sometimes.
      my wife and I went to Belize ... interesting.
      but we may not need to relocate. the tea party people have shown that, in miniature.
      think ... think ... has AS been translated into spanish? could we do a Gideon thing and put copies in gas station rest rooms?
      this electronic gulch inspires thought -- and we MUST not let the internet be controlled into oblivion.
      think ... think ... -- j
      p.s. the potential separation -- between the predominant-givers and the predominant-takers -- is partially revealed in the "blue" and "red" county maps which I'm sure that we all have seen, as from the 2012 election. the predominant-givers are gradually leaving, say, cities like detroit. does this offer a clue?
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      • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 7 months ago
        Probabilities, possibilities.
        You are thinking productively, thank you. By the way, I haven't seen a great book mentioned in the Gulch that has the A.R. answer to every argument anyone can give you. I do recommend, however, not to bother with died-in-the-wool libs, but fence sitters and seekers should be the goal. The book is the Ayn Rand Lexicon edited by Harry Binswanger. What a great resource! I don't know if it's still in print, but if it isn't, a good idea might be to try to get it reprinted. It was published in 1986 by NAL Penguin, Inc. 1633 Broadway NYC 10019.
        As to the Tea Party, those folks are worth working with Some are misguided, but when I communicate with some of them, they seem inclined to listen, learn and read.
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        • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 7 months ago
          Yessir! I have the lexicon here at the desk! (oddly, it's the only Rand book I have here!) it's good.
          I particularly like Jenny Beth Martin of TPPatriots, and hope that they keep traction into the future.
          Let's Keep The Faith, regardless of our faith, or not! (keep the confidence?) -- j
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
        If we could break the population centers away from non-urban areas, we could re-balance the congress. As we are today, the population dense cities dictate nearly everything. As Mr. Franklin surmised, we were given a republic. That is not a democracy. We need to stop the "winner takes all" aspects of elections. Let's get back to apportioning by district. That way at least we spread the effects of elections more evenly (since all congressional districts are apportioned to an "equal" population size). This should be our focus - that and removing the 17th Amendment.
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        • Posted by $ CBJ 10 years, 7 months ago
          Or begin transitioning away from geographically-based representation in favor of electing legislators based on the number of voters supporting them, regardless of where in the country they live. Elected representatives are supposed to be agents of those who elect them, and this would be a huge step toward achieving that goal. (And since libertarians routinely receive 3 to 5 percent of the vote in congressional elections, such a reform would likely put several libertarians into the U.S. House and Senate.)
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        • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 7 months ago
          amen, brother!!! y' know, when I contribute to some charities, I get to select which programs are funded by my $$. not so, with the feds. if the 17th were eliminated, we'd have some more say about this. but 1913's turn-for-the-worse did happen. maybe if I paid them in cash, and put a dye pack in the bag which was sensitive to the smell of progressives? we have scientists who could arrange to sniff out THC ..... -- j
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
      Thank you. I feel the same. Those who think that a plot device will work in real life are fooling themselves. Allowing the collapse will not lead to a rebirth, it will lead to decades (and my fear is centuries) of serfdom.
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    • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 7 months ago
      Why not do both? I am.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 7 months ago
        How can you be effective if you don't participate? Unless you mean that by shrugging you are not actually hiding out in a hard to find location but are still part of humanity but in a different capacity than is usual. Otherwise, you've got me stumped.
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        • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 7 months ago
          Lol. Shrugging in the way of removing my talents from feeding the beast that's trying to kill me and mine. Staying productive in a way that works against their agenda to destroy. Not off the grid, but busy building and planning and educating those worth the effort. I have a lot to do. Getting people to think is hard work and so is stopping evil. I will no longer be their cog.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
            But if you are generating income (at least above some level). you are feeding the beast. And if you do nearly anything that is taxed, pay a fee, or fine, you are feeding the beast. And merely by existing, you feed the beast by being a demographic number.
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            • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 7 months ago
              I'm feeding it a hell of a lot less than I used to. And will be starving it even more soon... but you hit the point of starving yourself along with it until you can make a better plan happen. What are YOU doing?
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                Well, politics didn't work out. Sadly, with kids still in college and a mortgage to pay off, I'm pretty much stuck. Not willing to unplug, so trying to do what I can to support those that will at least slow things down if not outright change them back around.
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                • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 7 months ago
                  Have you shrugged "friends"?
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                    Never really liked that show, not even in re-runs ;-)

                    What do you mean "shrugged friends?"
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                    • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 7 months ago
                      I have a glob of people I used to be friends with...then realized they were an opposing force (working against freedom, rights...me), but refused to believe it, or refused to talk about anything important to our future existences, so I am no longer spending time with them. I removed myself from wasting my valuable time on useful idiots. I amazed by people who do NOT want to talk about politics either. The not talking is a HUGE part of the problem we are faced with.
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
                        Then, yes, I've shrugged those (although I still have family that are a problem).
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                        • Posted by Notperfect 10 years, 7 months ago
                          Robbie I feel your pain. When you think your on the right track then here comes another piece of family that cannot hardly wait to sink their fangs into what you have succeeded in and accomplished. I know an elder and she is one of the sweetest persons you would ever meet. At almost 101 young years she stated when Obama was running for office that "We do not need a !@#$%r in office". Then her son quoted a few days after the elections that she had voted as they always had. Thought about that and realized her ballot was delivered by mail and her only son helped her fill it out. He still remains hard line liberal and watches her like a hawk. He told me once when Clinton got out that if Clinton could run again he would vote for that germ. Living in Michigan I see plenty. The funniest thing I was asked by my Mother-n-law was "have you ever seen so many Mexicans in your life here in Michigan". I turned and giggled and thought to myself "I was born and raised in South Texas". Then I turned back and said "no Ma I guess not".
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    • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
      I agree. "Shrugging" seemed like a suggestion which admitted defeat and helplessness. In the Soviet Union, that might have made sense. But in the United States, I prefer to think that we actually do have the power to change things.
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  • Posted by RonC 10 years, 7 months ago
    There are only a few of the separate states that are strong enough to endure as an independent nation. California could have, but they seem to be leading the way in entitlements. One state was a nation before it became a state, Texas. Look at Texas. Seaports, shipping, energy, manufacturing, education, technology, agriculture; they really do have it all. The problem is the Federal government view many of those assets as theirs. The BLM is talking about seizing 90,000 acres along the Oklahoma border... All of the seaports fall under federal government juris diction. Any river that crosses a state border fall under federal regulation. All of the tax revenue generated by corporate tax and individual income tax is of course federal. And the simple fact is Washington will not let any state succeed. They need the fees and taxes of the relatively free to pay for the food stamps and housing of the impoverished and enslaved. They will bring military force into play to keep it. Too much money, too many votes

    On another tangent, if several AS investors banned together to purchase a 1000 acre spread. We fenced it. Gated it. Had guard houses at the entrances. Drilled wells, built generation facilities and a road system. We declared it a tax free zone. We are. finally in a place where the mooches and takers could not pollute the lifestyle, what a vision. Then the President of the HOA gets a letter from the EPA informing him our sewage is not compliant, our wells have been condemned, the roads we built interrupted the breeding cycle of the coyotes and also created excess run off of rain. Since we were not solar and wind powered our generation plant would have to pay a carbon tax, to be collected from each individual in the community. If we had a place, the agencies and regulators would soon turn the gulch into their vision of Utopian paradise; all of the collective surrendering their property for the sake of those in need. After all, it's only fair.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
      While I agree that the fed's won't let any state succeed, I believe that you meant secede.

      Even if the feds would permit secession (and as you state, that is very doubtful) it would likely only be agreed to with a stipulation of a repayment of the population's share of the national debt, currently at over $52k per person. That's over $1.3 Trillion just for Texas.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 7 months ago
    There was a Russian economist who predicted the US would break up into 6 separate countries. http://worldeconomicstorm.com/russian-ec...
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    • Posted by robertmbeard 10 years, 7 months ago
      I find I can't really disagree with many of his points about the likelihood of the US splitting up after the upcoming economic collapse. The continued use of the US dollar as the world's main reserve currency is the single biggest variable propping up our economy. While we like to think we are somehow different, history shows that economic turmoil or collapse in a country unleashes pent-up regional or ethnic differences that frequently results in a breakup. Our country is polarized politically between socialists and nominally freedom-loving people -- so-called blue states vs. red states. So, there are plausible break-up scenarios that could happen after a national economic collapse of the US dollar...
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
        The differences are more urban vs. non-urban. Look at a political map by county and this will jump out at you. If there is a break-up it is going to be the non-urban areas banding together and cutting off the urban centers.
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    • Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago
      So... something like this?

      http://i.imgur.com/g9DKxe9.jpg
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
        You forgot to section off southeastern Florida as The People's Republic of the Caribbean.
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        • Posted by KosherGuy 10 years, 7 months ago
          Having lived in South Florida (Ft. Lauderdale) for 21 years prior to retiring on Maui, I believe that the State of Florida would thrive as an independent political entity. I therefor question your characterization of SE Florida as The People's Republic of the Caribbean. In fact, as it is home to the third largest Jewish population in America, I'm surprized that you did not also suggest it as Little Israel.

          The State of Florida serves as a major provider of winter vegetables for the rest of the country. Florida could also partner up with the other Gulf States; Texas, Louisiana and Alabama, as a consortium of energy producing centers. Florida is also a major dairy and beef cattle producing state as well as a leader in the aquaculture of Tilapia, a delicious and versatile food fish. Florida is also the home of several state and private universities engaged in all manner of scientific and medical research.

          If It really hit the fan, Southeast Florida would be my first choice as a place to settle for the climate as well as the other pluses I mentioned.
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          • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
            The State of Florida is a conglomeration of three distinctly different environments: southeast Florida, central Florida, and north Florida. Any one of those three environments could stand alone as an independent political entity. I live in east central Florida and love it. I am a professor at one of those private universities (Florida Tech) and am vehemently opposed to having to subsidize my competition. The state university system in Florida has become the object of quite a lot of "government support".

            For several months, I commuted three hours down each way twice per week to just south of Fort Lauderdale as part of a biosensors company. With that long a commute, I hated all the traffic jams. I disliked the very high level of government interference at multiple levels below the state level with the business that I was a partner in.

            Florida has also subsidized a lot of solar energy research in direct competition to a second company I helped start up to convert solid waste of several types into energy, fuels, or chemicals. When Obama took office and put solar energy into favor, we sold our company and shrugged. Solar energy will never be economical. It will always have too high a capital cost.

            I mention nothing racial nor ethnic by my statement. My second best friend is Jewish,
            and now he makes the same three hour commute I dreaded. I employ people from all over the world in my research group, including one Jewish student, one Hispanic student (the next John Galt), a Jamaican, one from India, one from Libya, one from Brazil, and three other Americans, including one Chinese-American.

            Southeast Florida is a little too hot for me, and way too crowded. In the last several statewide elections, southeast Florida has more than cancelled out my community's votes from east central Florida.

            East Central Florida is perfect.
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            • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 7 months ago
              Sign me up for the Sunshine Coast of QLD.
              Miles (oops, Km) upon miles of pristine and nearly empty beaches and nothing like the traffic or hurricane possibilities in FL.
              And then there is that little natural wonder the Great Barrier Reef.
              Gun control sucks though.
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            • Posted by robertmbeard 10 years, 7 months ago
              I agree with your characterization of SE Florida. Having lived there for 7 years, I can say it is overrun with socialists. The cost of living is high. The weather is great in winter (the only good thing). It's overcrowded. Socialist home owner's associations and condo owner's associations are everywhere. There is a huge population of New York and New Jersey transplants who bring their love of government domination (regulations and taxes) to those 3 counties. It really is the People's Republic of South Florida (PRSF)...
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
                Back in 2001 when I had a company in The People's Republic of Broward County (Fort Lauderdale), they wouldn't even let me wire the building our business was in for the Internet without significant hassle. I was glad we sold that company to EPT, the pregnancy detection kit people.
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              • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
                The price of a 4-bedroom house in my area in east central Florida is in the high $200's. The same house in southeast Florida would cost $700 K, and the property taxes would be six times as high. I know because my sister's family had a house in a Fort Lauderdale suburb by the exact same builder as built mine within one year of ours being built. East Central Florida would be a great winter home for Atlantis. My town (Melbourne) never gets above 92 degrees Fahrenheit either, and it gets just cool enough at night in the summer that you can still sleep (74 degrees F dewpoint max). In southeast Florida, the dewpoint is 80 degrees Fahrenheit for the whole summer.
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                • Posted by robertmbeard 10 years, 7 months ago
                  In Spring 2006, at the peak of the real estate bubble, my apartment complex initially decided to convert to condos but backed off within 2 months when they saw the market was tanking. In the initial condo conversion offer, tenants like me could buy our apartment as a condo and receive $12K off the price. My apartment was a 2 bedroom, 2 bath townhouse with 1 car garage, renting for $1430/month.

                  The proposed sales price was $370K ($358K after the incentive). The thick condo prospectus listed hundreds of rules. The condo association fee was going to be $405/month! The real estate taxes were estimated at $575/month! When you add in fire insurance, those 3 items were almost equal to my monthly rent. That doesn't even count the principal and interest on the proposed mortgage loan. If I remember correctly, the total monthly mortgage was around $3500/month. There was no way I was going to say yes to that deal...
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                  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
                    I bought my east central FL house in 1998 brand new for $172 K. It was up to right around $500 K during 2006. Now it's just under $300 K, but it is paid off. I am completely debt free! But yes, Florida had a huge real estate bubble.
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                    • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 7 months ago
                      I'd be moving to your area if I could get back just what I have invested in my place. I built in 1996 and purchased the acres I have the home on (not including the 146 acres attached to it) for $40k and the home cost $190k and the studio $50k plus the pool.

                      Today I'd do well to get $200 for the place because the federal dept of corrections built a prison 1 mile down the highway from my place. Of course the acreage could be sold for enough to make up for the loss, but I was going to hold onto that as a gift for the kids. Right now it's my private range - but the zoning board is trying to stop that. If they do manage to ban my shooting down there, I will sell it and move.
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                    • Posted by RevJay4 10 years, 7 months ago
                      Debt free is a wonderful thing. So, er ah, freeing. Congrats, jbrenner, been there for a while. Luving it.
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                      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
                        I have needed to be debt-free to finance this rather expensive hobby of transforming others' research equipment trash into something that I can use for both teaching and research. It is how I avoid having to be a moocher writing grant proposals to government agencies.
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      • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 7 months ago
        I've seen it broken up differently, but similar. The one I saw actually has southern California as its own state separate from Northern California, Eastern Oregon and Coastal Washington. Then you get another chunk that starts in Eastern Washington/Oregon and adds in Idaho, Utah, Most of Nevada, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, and Northern Arizona as a great Western Territory. Southern Arizona, Southern California, Southern Nevada and New Mexico effectively become New New Mexico. Texas, Oklahoma, and much of the midwest north to Indiana go into the Heartland Nation. Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin become the Great Lakes Coalition (or New Canada). New England becomes its own nation down to Washington DC, and the rest form the Greater South.

        Here's a couple of theories:
        http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http...

        https://www.flickr.com/photos/22320444@N...
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