Driverless Cars and Regulators

Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 8 months ago to Technology
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Are regulators inhibiting invention and endangering our safety?
SOURCE URL: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/google-kicks-car-fight-upstairs-184644851.html


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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
    One of the things that is really puzzling me on this issue is the number of times in the discussion about self driving cars there is an assumption that they must be absolutely perfect and never have an accident.

    While we accept killing almost 100 people a day, every day with human driven cars.
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    • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
      There is certainly that, but I think the bigger unresolved question is one of legal liability: who is to blame in an accident initiated by a driverless car?
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      • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
        The problem is that our courts and legal system have perverted the definition of a tort (accident). A person who is injured or suffers economic damage is not entitled to damages unless the perpetrator behaved in a way that was more reckless than a reasonably prudent person and the perpetrator acting substantially more unreasonably that the injured party.

        For example a passenger in a car is not entitled to damages from the driver if the driver was taking unreasonable risks if the passenger was egging the driver on (Did not affirmatively complain about the driving).

        The problem in law today is that we act like accidents do not happen. A good driver can have a wreck and have done nothing unreasonable. They should not be given a ticket and they should not be liable for damages, even if they hurt property or a person.
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        • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
          The response, of course, is that if everyone is acting prudently, there wouldn't be accidents. If everyone is strictly obeying the laws of the road, the only remaining cause for collision would be equipment failure - a likely assertion in the case of a self-driving car.

          I don't disagree with you that our culture has become overly litigious. But I think that the same argument about definition creep can be applied to the word "accident" as well. Many try to pass off collisions caused by lapses in judgement as "accidents" when what has really happened is that the person has significantly raised the risk of a collision through poor decision-making. Do we place responsibility where responsibility lies or attempt to merely pass the incident off as something outside one's control?
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          • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
            That is nonsense. Of course there would be accidents. You are setting up a standard that no one person or machine could ever meet.

            It is impossible for any person or machine to constantly follow the law. Everyone blinks their eyes, has to watch multiple things and even a machine could not always follow the rules. For instance, ice, snow, sun, balls, deer, birds etc. will cause accidents and force drivers to not obey the law. It is exactly that sort of thinking that has allowed trial lawyers to create the present legal environment and has caused our insurance rates to skyrocket.

            No one has a right to a risk free life. If you drive a car you assume some of the risk of that activity.
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            • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
              If you read my comment to imply that I advocated that 100% of collisions were avoidable, I retract such and apologize for my poor wording. It seems as if the picture you want to paint, however, depicts the majority of collisions as being unavoidable [accidents] due to "ice, snow, sun, balls, deer, birds etc." A quick search revealed that at least two studies (one by Stanford, another by Indiana) put human error at 90% of all automobile collisions (http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/201....

              "It is impossible for any person or machine to constantly follow the law."

              Only conscious beings can choose to violate law. Machines always follow the rules. They can do nothing else. You should know that both from your experience as a patent attorney and from Objectivism itself. If they "violate the law", they do so because a human built them as a tool to so do. Would you care to clarify your statement?

              "No one has a right to a risk free life. If you drive a car you assume some of the risk of that activity."

              I agree, but that does not give other drivers the right to escalate that risk through their inattention or poor decision-making. When an incident occurs, they must be held accountable and face the consequences of their decisions. I can not agree to a position that attempts to disassociate risk and reward (or failure).
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              • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
                "When an incident occurs" Not necessarily. If a reasonably prudent person would have behaved the same way then no liability should apply.

                While you have a point about choosing to violate the law, you know that you and other drivers violate the law all the time unconsciously. Second you are wrong that a machine can follow the law all the time. Control system are not perfect and I know that because of my engineering.
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                • Posted by $ blarman 8 years, 8 months ago
                  "If a reasonably prudent person would have behaved the same way then no liability should apply."

                  I agree that these incidents properly qualify as "accidents". However, as the studies show, these cases are the distinct minority rather than the majority of incidents. Errors of judgement do not fall within "reasonable prudence".

                  "you know that you and other drivers violate the law all the time unconsciously."

                  What actually happens is that people rationalize that certain discretionary adherence to the law is acceptable. Much of driving becomes semi-conscious only because of repetition of prior conscious action (with two daughters having learner's permits, this has become painfully obvious). If someone chooses to accustom themselves to selective obedience to the law, those actions at some point will become the default actions (aka habits) of the future. What they are actually doing, however, is arguing that only outside enforcement of the law makes it applicable, denying the personal responsibility to police and manage one's self. They deny that they own themselves.

                  "Control system are not perfect and I know that because of my engineering."

                  Which leads to an interesting question, however: If there is a collision instigated by a driverless car which is determined to be the result of an imperfect control system but still results in injury or death of a person, is that to be simply overlooked as an "accident" (your term) with no liability? I believe that this is precisely the legal issue at hand.
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                  • Posted by plusaf 8 years, 8 months ago
                    I think the lawsuit would attack whoever was responsible for the creation and testing of the "imperfect control system."
                    As usual.
                    I love watching as America strives to be the Most Risk-Free Environment On Earth.
                    And this Driverless Car "debate" is the latest and possibly best example ever.
                    Enjoy the show.
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    • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 8 months ago
      In other words, you would like a new car that is as safe as, or safer than, the cars now on the road, and won't necessarily wait for the car that is perfectly safe. The latter we call "making the perfect the enemy of the better."
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
    If all cars were driverless, I can see things being better than now. If all cars have human drivers, we have what we have now, which isnt great. If some cars are autonomous, and some are driven by humans, how is that going to work? How is the autonomous control system going to account for the supremely STUPID and unpredictable things drivers do while they are texting, dealing with screaming children, arguing with spouses, etc.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
      Probably better than most human drivers
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      • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
        I am just thinking like the engineer that I am. If I had to put in programming to take into account irrational, stupid, or unpredictable actions of human drivers- I would hardly know where to start !! Very difficult problem. I would also say that there are no protective measures that would be effective to combat some irrational behavior on the part of human drivers, and accidents would result. I can imagine how the courts would assess blame in those cases to software that wasnt able to anticipate or handle those situations.
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        • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
          The beauty of self driving cars is that the entire system can learn. Have one car encounter someone on a unicycle and the system will learn how to deal with unicycles.

          We don't have to think of that in advance. Google and the others are gathering that data now and adjusting their algorithms based on their encounters with the erratic public.
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          • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
            But I would suggest that different humans might have completely different sets of driving patterns and if the autonomous car expected a driver to do one thing and learned to handle THAT thing, but then encountered a driver that took the opposite action, there might not be enough time to safely react.
            If all cars were autonomous, one car could expect some sort of standardized response to situations
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            • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
              I think that Google has already had to face up to the fact that people do weird things and you have to have a variety of reactions. So do we, you never know what that idiot in front of you is going to do. Computer react faster.

              Jan won a bet with me on this. I used to bet that the algorithm for a self driving car was too hard and we would build "smart" roads that would guide cars first. Obviously she won.

              The key is computer learning. While one car is autonomous, they will be able to update their algorithms regularly. While we sleep our cars will be exchanging stories "You won't believe what happened to me today..."
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              • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
                Thats a cool approach. I am not saying it CANT be done, just that its hard and there will be crashes along the way that will result in huge lawsuits and government interference in the "unsafe cars". Eventually it will sort itself out through innovation and hard work. Ultimately it will be safer overall as the cars have more standardized responses to situations and one car can count on another to act in certain ways
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                • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
                  I'm worried about the "huge lawsuits" as I commented to CG, some neo-luddite jury will ignore long standing liability guidelines and aware a fortune in punitive damages. We treat car accidents far differently from product liability. You can lose control of your vehicle and plow into a car carrying a family and kill them all and there are ways of evaluating the cost -- but if the car company knew there was a flaw in the steering mechanism and didn't fix it, the same accident would generate vastly different outcomes.
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                  • Posted by term2 8 years, 8 months ago
                    Forget knowing that there was a flaw. Companies didnt know asbestos was dangerous at the time, but got socked with damages anyway. Same with Google- if it turns out years later that better technology was invented, I think the lawsuits would reflect that the new technology "would have saved that helpless child....." and the company should have known....
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 8 months ago
    Thinking of bureaucrats and MADD (the directors of much of NHTSA) designing autonomous cars kind of reminds me of the old engineering saw about what a camel is: A horse designed by committee.

    Google is actually seeking gov't direction to choose their designs and concepts of self driving cars to fit some idea of cars that few of their people use or rely on. They're socialists and environmentalists.

    Me, I like to drive and in 58 years of doing so all over this nation, I've never wrecked an auto or hit anything else. I have been hit from the rear three times at stops.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 8 months ago
      Impressive. I might want to drive occasionally, but I would love to not have to drive and I would like many other people not to drive.

      Besides we are not getting any younger and at some point it will not be safe for us to drive, but we could use a driverless car
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 8 months ago
        I feel that way too, but I imagine a future in which cars do not even have a driver's seat and are more like first-class seats on an international flight: a little alcove with a desk that can turn into a bed. It's possible when it gets to that point no one born after that point will even think about wanting manual controls, anymore than we want to scrub clothes on an washboard. I would have a hard time with a lack of control, but I think the extra free time will be far more desirable to people who never had to drive.
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    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
      I have an employee who was driving along, minding his own business one night when a woman in an oncoming car had a heart attack and came across the lane at him. He had a barrier to his right and no where to go. They medevacked him out, so being a good driver doesn't mean you can't have an accident.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years, 8 months ago
    what really concerns me about "auto" cars is who could "control" your car and it's destination if they decide you are a threat to the powers that be...
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  • Posted by $ Snezzy 8 years, 8 months ago
    I have used a vehicle with semi-autonomous control, and it worked quite well except when needing to make a choice at intersections or to stop for traffic lights or stop signs. That's because a properly trained pair of driving horses have a good sense of going straight down the road, and seem to understand self preservation.

    When taking those same horses a good distance in my horse trailer, I would dread being in an automatically controlled towing vehicle. It takes a bit of psychology to understand that the car behind you is probably going to pass in a no-passing zone and pull in front of your truck as you are attempting to stop for traffic ahead.

    I avoided that accident by doing what the passing vehicle had just done, and moving my rig into the oncoming-traffic lane, which happened to be empty. What would the autonomous-control towing vehicle do?

    Will the new autonomous vehicles be able to sense the horse-drawn vehicles on the roads of Indiana, Ohio, or Pennsylvania? Will the Amish need to adopt some sort of set of radar reflectors in self defense?
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 8 months ago
    "There is no question that someone’s going to die in this technology"
    This is true of any new technology. It's true of IoT. Very some combination of human error and automated devices will kill someone. Maybe it will be an app error turning on the stove by accident on a phone app in a distant city.
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    • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 8 years, 8 months ago
      We have systems in place to allocate damages, medical bills, pain and suffering, death and loss of future income and all the issues related to the vast number of highway deaths. The system works. My concern is that some neo-luddite jury will ignore all this and award someone a billion dollar award as punitive damages because there was a software bug.
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  • Posted by ohiocrossroads 8 years, 8 months ago
    Well, we all know that only the government loves us and wants us to be safe. Those money-grubbing capitalists will only make control systems for autonomous cars that are full of bugs.

    I say let NHTSA handle the whole thing.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years, 8 months ago
    the govt is the regulator of auto safety in name only...like all regulators they are in bed with the auto industry and asleep at the wheel...the state is responsible for the design of unsafe roads and very poorly licenses drivers endangering the rest of us...
    i have driven cars for over 50 years, flown airplanes for over 40 years, and am yet to be the cause of an accident...90% of what i do is to focus on driving and flying defensively to stay safe...and i am down to one good eye...
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 8 months ago
    I'm OK. It's the damn car that's intoxicated.
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    • Posted by $ Snezzy 8 years, 8 months ago
      More likely than you think. How will autonomous cars learn to drive amongst Boston drivers, notorious for death-defying activities? In Boston the most audacious driver has the right of way. Or sometimes it's the person with the 1975 Ford pickup with 200 pounds of sheet metal pop-riveted over the rust holes who is the winner. Boston's not for the timid.

      Once they have picked up that skill and then travel elsewhere, will automated "Boston driving" spread as an infection throughout the US? I have heard that only Brazilian and French drivers can possibly be worse.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 8 months ago
    There are entrenched thinkers in any technology area, who resist new ideas simply because they are new, and require change they are afraid they may not be able to adapt to. The U.S. Army resisted smokeless gunpowder on the basis that the riflemen wouldn't be able to hide behind covering black powder smoke, and repeating arms as encouraging waste of ammunition. Lockheed was ready to produce the first jet fighter in 1940, but was turned down because it would require retraining of the entire Army Air Corps maintenance force.

    The reality is that the bureaucrats in the DOT who have been thinking in a well-established tradition about automobiles are fearful of their ability to adjust to the changes required for dealing with real "auto" mobile transportation. The same entrenched civil servants have been refusing to permit automated aircraft landings, when the technology to operate autonomously has been built into passenger aircraft for more than a decade. Several serious aircraft crashes in recent years have been as a result of pilots overriding landing systems and causing the incidents.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 8 months ago
    None of these questions would obtain if private persons and companies owned and kept the streets and roads, and private organizations undertook to advise people on safety. If you abolished the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration today, Underwriters' Laboratories could open a highway/traffic-safety division tomorrow.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 8 months ago
    Another thought about autonomous cars: What if the program is faced with the decision of a head-on collision or hitting pedestrians? It's the type of scenario people bring up when discussing utilitarianism and human behavior, but now we may actually have to think it through and put it in a program that will be deployed in a fleet of cars.
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