"My Rand Paul Problem – Why classical liberalism is superior to hard-core libertarianism," by Richard A. Epstein

Posted by Maphesdus 10 years, 7 months ago to Politics
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Just found this article today. Epstein raises many good points, and I think he makes a legitimate argument.

The difference between Classical Liberalism and Libertarianism is an issue I'm currently trying to learn more about, as the distinction really hasn't been very clear to me up until now. But here it looks like I may have found an author who can finally provide that much needed insight. I'll definitely have to check out some of this guy's books.
SOURCE URL: http://www.hoover.org/publications/defining-ideas/article/167496


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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 7 months ago
    Thank you for this post.

    "The umbrella term comfortably embraces both strands of libertarian theory vis-à-vis a common intellectual foe."

    The term may embrace both, but I don't see libertarians doing a good job of working together to push modest reforms to scale back the size and intrusiveness of gov't.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 7 months ago
    You seem to be looking for the right person to follow. That is a different problem entirely. This article by Richard Epstein is just conservatism in new phrasing. I had to look up "the holdout problem." It really comes from corporate finance, but is applied now to eminent domain. Basically, Epstein is saying that the government must be able to coerce some people so that everyone else can get what they want (at a lower cost). He is, of course, in favor of taxation.

    Epstein also conflates two different situations: the holdout who does not want to sell their land to the state; and the "holdout" who robs their neighbor. Epstein says that the second person is violating the social contract and upsetting the social order - and so is the first.

    More to the point, "social order" is not the _goal_ of objective law. Peace comes as a consequence of protecting the individual and individual rights against aggression. That derives directly from your right to your own life - and your right to protect yourself. There is a difference between defending yourself against an attack and retaliating against your (accused) attacker. Government is the solution to that problem.

    But "government" can be instantiated many ways. How that gets done is a worthy discussion to have - but we all must keep to first principles, and Epstein does not. In fact, he sacrifices those principles for the expedient promise that "someone" (someone else; the government) will keep down the cost of highways (recreational parks; outer space exploration; education; electricity...) by forcing "holdouts" to go along with the "social contract."

    Considering one of your favorite areas of discussion, how are homosexuals not holdouts against the social contract that we have children in order to carry on human society? You can see where vacuous "classical liberalism" without a ligature to first principles can be put to any purpose. In fact, it was...

    Classical liberalism failed precisely because it lacked an objective basis in metaphysics and epistemology and therefore in morality and ethics. The free market liberals of the early 19th century became the anti-market liberals of the late 19th century because they conflated economic power with political power. Seeking to protect everyone from anyone more powerful, nothing stopped them from enforcing whatever they added to the "social contract." It is why Ayn Rand coined the phrase "radicals for capitalism" as the best expression of the right political program.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 7 months ago
      If you don't mind me asking, what is the goal of objective law? Is it not peace and order within society? Isn't that what the term "social order" means? What other purpose could law possibly have? Forgive me, but I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here.

      And many homosexuals do have children, so saying they're somehow holdouts against that isn't supported by the evidence. But regardless, it isn't necessary for every single member of society to reproduce, anyway. It's only necessary for the birth rate of the total population to exceed the death rate, and even then only if the available resources can maintain and support the increased population levels.

      Economic power can absolutely translate into political power. Always remember the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. I suppose a system where political success had nothing to do with financial backing would be ideal, and I think the Founding Fathers tried to achieve that. But given the way our nation's government has operated the past two-hundred years, it doesn't appear as though they succeeded.

      I don't think Classical Liberalism ever actually failed. It was simply abandoned. Obviously a philosophy isn't going to have any impact on a society that ignores and disregards it. You say that Classical Liberalism can be put to any purpose, and was, but I don't quite see how. Could you clarify that point for me?
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      • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 10 years, 7 months ago
        Maph, we are covering a lot of ground here; perhaps different discussion topics might help. To address the points in question, first "objective" law is not Objectivist Law. Rand indicated Rome as an example of objective law because the laws were written down, immutable except by formal process, and enforced consistently not by whim. (The evil of a dictatorship is that bureaucrats rule by whim.) But Roman law was not Objectivist. Objectivist law begins with individual rights.

        As you say, a system where political power was separated from the economic sphere is best. Short of that, I agree with your running subtext that if economic decisions were all-inclusive, then racism and sexism and etc. would not exist. But contrary to the claims of free market apologists, you can get along well enough without Negroes at your lunch counter or queers drinking your beers. Myself, I do not see that two wrongs make a right. Beating someone up for being stupid will not make them smart. But that is a discussion you and we all have have in many places here in the Gulch.

        The solution is not political, but cultural. Consider the shining moments of Hellenism or the Renaissance. It was not that everyone agreed on specifics but that many people accepted a common culture. Those cultures honored reason and individualism. In religion and politics we have Sunnis bombing Shiites and Catholics burning Protestants and Buddhists versus Hindus and all that and communism and fascism and the rest. But Epicureans did not persecute Stoics. The Copenhagen physicists did not bomb the bierhalls of the Uncertainty Principlists. When many people in many places implicitly accept Objective truth, you will see the kind of society you seem to want.

        On the final point, if Classical Liberalism was abandoned, is that not the same thing as it having failed? By that you mean, perhaps, that the original impetus of the 1830s was lost by the 1870s. You label it one thing; I call it something else. It seems to be the same in either case. The failure was that no such thing existed as explicit Classical Liberalism. They could and did drift far away from their original principles because those fundamentals were never explicit.
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 10 years, 7 months ago
    In the near future we will see all kinds of fancy reasons to not vote for Rand Paul. So far, for me...if he runs he probably gets my vote.

    What? You want me to vote for Jeb Common Core?
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
    I am in agreement with MikeMarotta here. I am a libertarian rather than a Jeffersonian liberal (a term I much prefer to classic liberal because it makes it easier to contrast with today's "liberals" who are nothing short of patient Communists as someone else noted this weekend). The reason that I don't like Jeffersonian liberalism is that I see no reason for a "social order" as dictated by government. An informed citizenry will self-police just like the Gulch here does without a formal police force. As MikeMarotta put it succinctly, "'social order' is not the goal of objective law".
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
      Correct. I prefer Constitutional libertarian, myself. The constitution defines the proper role and limits of a government, and all else is left to the people.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 7 months ago
      Well, this forum is still moderated by the administrators. Plus, users on this forum have no real ability to actually cause any significant harm to each other, so it isn't necessary to do much policing. Though I do have to wonder what the goal of law is, if not social order.
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      • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 7 months ago
        The goal of law in a republic is a minimal amount of social order. The goal of lawyers promulgating laws now is to exert control over producers. Therefore, your statement should be correct. The fact that lawyers (a profession that I have little respect for other than patent lawyers) have bastardized the law into something that it should never have become is the difference between the way things ought to be vs. the way that they really are. I mean no offense to you, Maphesdus. You seem like a thoughtful enough person, even if we do disagree sometimes.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 7 months ago
    From the article - "The classical liberal avoids such over-the-top rhetoric. Instead, he seeks to maximize the net social gain from the tax system, so that each taxpayer receives a bundle of government services whose value exceeds the cost of the tax."

    There is no such thing, as government must consume a portion of the taxes procured. Ever more taxes dictates ever more bureaucracy, thus reducing the efficiency of the taxes to provide services. Any service can be procured by the individual (or group of individuals) more cost efficiently than via a government institution. Even a military would be more efficient, although a private military would raise questions of vigilantism and legitimacy.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 7 months ago
    Epstein is a classical representation of an 'ivory tower' thinker versus the practical classical liberal or libertarian trying to find ways and means to apply the ideas to society and politics. Paul, for me represents our best opportunity to date to actually see some positive steps forward for the principles espoused by both strict schools.

    I read his article as a veiled attack against classic liberal as well as libertarian principles in favor of conservative bigger government, much as our current field of conservative Republicans wanting to better manage big government in order to maintain their ideals of social order and properness. He seems to lose the concept of true freedom.
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