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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 9 months ago
    He said that the podcast was not the right format for a complete answer. Property rights come from the same fundamentals as the right to be free from coercion. So does freedom of religion, as well as freedom from religion, as all the other ancillary rights we require to live in society.

    As for the farmer and the nomad, turn it around. Can the farmer forever expand the size of the farm until the next farm or city? What makes land "owned"? Is it possible to have a society of non-contiguous farms? (Think of the Masons or Catholic Church, both of which are highly evolved societies of non-contiguous properties.) If so, then topologically,they are no different from nomads. It is like the sight-gag where the cartoon characters is invited to "a piece of pie", slices one-eighth and lifts out the other 7/8 for himself.

    You attempt to answer the question by framing the question. It is a nice rhetorical device, but only that.

    The fundamental philosophical issues are independent of which union card you carry, hunter, pastoralist, farmer, craftsman, or trader.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      what makes land "owned" is the value add. Let's say I sell you a vacant lot. The value add to the land is that I gained value elsewhere and transferred that value to the seller of the land, thus adding new value to the lot
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  • Posted by MaxCasey 8 years, 9 months ago
    I always giggle a bit before I get irritated when encountering anarchists. I understand the concept of freedom, honestly I do, but these people seem to think that disbanding a government will make all bad people go away and somehow magically keep them from self organizing into a gang of murderous thieving thugs on their own. Sorry, don't mean to hijack your thread. I know I'm not completely on topic.
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    • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
      you are not off-topic at all. This is exactly what this post is for-discussing the absurdity of anarchy-though I am willing to entertain arguments for it. What I find giggly are the absurd "new" definitions of anti-concepts such as minarchy. LOL
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    • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 9 months ago
      Twice as many people work in private security as in public policing. Twice as much capital is invested in private security as in public policing. Read any contract you have for a mortgage, car loan, or other considerable business deal, now even cable-TV and Internet. (As a writer, publishers send them to me.) You agree contractually to private arbitration.

      Government serves the purpose of instantiating law. How that is effected depends on the mechanisms available in a society.

      In our transnational global capitalist society, non-state actors provide security in many parts of the world. I do not mean just warlords and abandoned armies now turned looter. This is well-known to criminologists and sociologists and the lefties are wringing their hands over it because they want government, not private enterprise.

      What keeps a private security force from becoming a gang of looters? Basically, the common culture, the same one that empowers the government to provide rule of law. But note that General Motors and Ford Motor company had their own private armies facing each other for 100 years without firing a shot at each other. The culture of GM and Ford was capitalist, individualist, rationalist, and realist. In other words, they knew their self-interest, and therefore respected the rights of others. With the Mafia of old, and drug cartels today, it is different: apparently no amount of government can be too much to stop them, because none ever has.

      What happens when they (or anyone) strays from that? Then we come back to the law.

      Note that the law requires coercion. You can be forced to appear in court as a defendant. You can be forced to appear as a witness. You can be forced to appear as a juror.

      That is why NIOF cannot be a fundamental principle. It rests on deeper truths, as an application of them. Similarly, we all seek profit. We do not always find it in every enterprise. Risk is reality. Profit is a general outcome from rational effort, but never a guarantee against the unpredicted.
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      • Posted by MaxCasey 8 years, 9 months ago
        Similarly points that I wind up making when arguing with anarchists. At some point there is a common operating agreement, a structure. Call it whatever you want but when men come together and agree on a set of principles to govern their behavior in a social setting, and then take it a step further and design the apparatus of ensuring rights are not violated you have a defacto government. With respect to private security versus public policing, I'm not making a distinction between the two. The difference is in the funding, and whether or not one has a choice in paying for it. Technically, one should have a choice, even if the policing is done as a part of government, as one must choose to join the society/government and subject themselves to the fees/taxes associated with citizenship. That discussion is a much longer and more in depth one than I care to engage in here.

        You say that the law requires coercion, I don't agree with the use of the word. If the operating agreement is freely accepted by both parties, then the holding of one to account doesn't require coercion, but may potentially require the use of force in order to uphold the agreement. Interestingly Ayn Rand held that "If physical force is to be barred from social relationships, men need an institution charged with the task of protecting their rights under an objective code of rules.

        This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government.

        A government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of physical force under objective control—i.e., under objectively defined laws."
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  • Posted by EastMeetsWest 8 years, 9 months ago
    Culture is the only foundation, without the culture there is no libertarianism. There will always be a culture of conquest to attack liberty, without the culture there is no defense.
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