Ron Paul op-ed on Crimea

Posted by KevinSmith1281 10 years, 9 months ago to Government
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 9 months ago
    in 1994 Ukraine dismantled its nuclear capability and scaled back it military on the condition that external powers would protect it in the event that Soviet (communist) expansion was to rear its ugly head again. Similar agreements were made with other former block nations where the US was supposed to place missile defense shields. O first took away the promise of missile defense shields and now he's allowing the Russians to walk into a sovereign nation and take land under the threat of force? Why should we care? We gave our word to a freedom seeking people to be there for them if/when the shit hits the fan.

    Paul is wrong.
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    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 9 months ago
      I don't think I agree. Can one call a nation that has been overtaken by a political coup sovereign? We backed the Egyptian coup, which we also helped to orchestrate and what have we there? We made all sorts of tactical mistakes in Ukraine. I do not want our guns and soldiers fighting for our foreign policy disasters no matter how badly I do not want to see Ukrainians part of a police state. But they voted for that corrupt govt in the first place.
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    • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 9 months ago
      I see your point about honoring agreements, but I have to disagree with you on this one. It is the honoring of agreements like this that lead to World War 1. We never should have agreed to be the protector for anyone. Oh, that we would once again take up the foreign policy espoused by John Quincy Adams:

      America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, equal justice, and equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations, while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when the conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama, the European World, will be contests between inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 9 months ago
        There are million of people who trusted US and Europe to help them remove the boot of communism from their throat. The "agreement" is made and those people, relatively helpless by design, are poised to re-enter the nightmare they were fortunate to get away from.
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        • Posted by LionelHutz 10 years, 9 months ago
          That is a long term good thing. The lesson Europe needs to learn from this is the USA is not your protector. If the end result is the removal of US bases from Europe with the understanding they are responsible for defending themselves, I'm all for it. If freedom is so important to these people, why did they think it wise to outsource the protectors of it?
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
            While I agree that our bases in Europe should have been turned over to the Europeans shortly after '89, that should not absolve all foreign engagement.
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 9 months ago
            Ever see a slip knot work? 2000 miles of ocean is no longer sufficient protection. it is in our own national interests to prevent the spread of socialism and communism in the world. Does that mean we war with everyone, no. But it does mean we actively work to stop this cancer before it surrounds us an chokes us out.

            I served during the Cold War. I've known people from the USSR, IRAN and one who lost his nation and family to the spread of communism in Venezuela. Communism is evil, soul crushing, and the decimation of the individual spirit. Long term sounds great in theory except to those in our future and those who have to suffer now.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago
              Countries who view themselves as the world police and believe they have a right to dictate the governments of the world are a cancer.
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              • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 9 months ago
                The influence of American culture on the rest of the world, for better or for worse, cannot be denied. While we are definitely flirting with being the worlds police, we have not been - not entirely anyway. The US has protected its interest globally and has an obligation to do so. It also comes to the aid of its allies AND just about anyone who asks for help. We conquer, we rebuild quite a bit, we help establish a government, and we leave. Cancer? Hardly. I do worry though that we are quickly becoming the world police.

                Communism is a cancer and its evil in a moral and even biblical sense (if that floats your boat).
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
      I've never agreed with Ron Paul's foreign policy. It is naïve and reactionary at best.
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      • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago
        Ok, what would you think in the following scenario. America is flat broke and actually acknowledging the fact after building up their debt and having 10 times their debt in unfunded liabilities. At this point, America not only has to stop bankrolling its own citizens but also has to stop policing the world and propping up their puppet governments around the world, which at this point they've been doing for the better part of a century. Other world powers, whether it be the UN or Russia or China realize the opportunity they now have. They, along with the rest of the world, stop using the dollar as the world reserve, and the American economy completely tanks. At this time, lets use Russia as the example since it would seem fitting right now, Russia covertly organizes a group of rebels to overthrow the American government. When the American government fights back against these Russian backed rebels, Russia starts an international campaign against America for humanitarian violations and imposes sanctions on America. Eventually, after months of international pressure and threats of being bombed to dust, the government gives control over to the Russian backed rebels. Americans are now ruled by a faction loyal to Russia and not to their own interests. So at that point, are Americans obliged to be loyal to their new government?
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
          Well, that is a completely absurd scenario as regards the US. But I'll take your basic premise to some nation in general.

          How did the government turn over power? Was it legal according to the laws of the nation? Did those in power have the authority to take the action that they did? Did the people have the opportunity to reject that action?

          Frankly these are not issues that can be dealt with superficially. For Crimea specifically, they are historically ethnic Russian. Russia (intentionally and to create the scenario for sure) has encouraged Russian migration to Crimea. They took a vote and asked to be part of Russia. That's not a scenario where they are being taken over against their will.

          I'm not sure that this is any much different than the "Free State Project" which is encouraging conservatives to move to a certain state in order to change the politics of that state. If they do, then that's "the will of the people."

          It is naïve to speak of the rights of the individual superseding the rights of the group in our current political systems. That might be nice, but it is unrealistic. I live in realville, not wishville.
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      • Posted by lostsierra 10 years, 9 months ago
        I'll sure take it in a New York wink. You go fight your war, may I suggest you enlist in the Light Brigade? How about the 27th Lancers? Not me, not my sons. Get in touch with reality. Want your $ turned to trash by one announcement? Putin holds four Aces, you hold a pair of 3s.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago
      Does Crimea have the right to self determination?
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
        Did the south have a right to self-determination? Do I have the right to secede from the US and my state? That is a very simplistic stance.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago
          I don't think the part about you personally really needs a response, but as far as the south... sure, I think they did. If a government no longer represents your interests, why shouldn't you have a right to decide it's not the government for you. If the Ukranian government was more or less overthrown by covert western funded operations, with the intention of replacing a pro-Russian government with a pro-western government, why should the people have to recognize the new government as their own? Why shouldn't they be allowed to reject it?
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
            Why not, don't I have as many rights?

            As for Crimea and Ukraine, if there isn't a mechanism to handle the situation, then referendum would seem viable.
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      • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 9 months ago
        Consider: you walk by a house being ransacked by a bunch of thugs. A family is calling to you from the window for help. You are armed and full capable of dispatching the thugs.

        See the analogy? Crimea is 1000x worse and there is no one to help them.
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        • Posted by lostsierra 10 years, 9 months ago
          You want to fight on the Eastern Front? Go to Kiev and enlist with them. Ain't my fight. They voted, they got it. You put NATO on Russia's border and heads of state make jokes about them. You will get all the war you want and then some. They hold all the cards. They Can destroy the dollar with one announcement. This is not a parlor room bull session. Get out of fantasy land.
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          • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 9 months ago
            I never said engage in violence. As for enlistment and national service I HAVE...you? I understand the rammifications of any action with the place we've been put in. Unlike you, I see that SOMETHING must be done to stop the spread of Russian influence. Communism is not dead with Russia, it never was. If we are not very careful we will be an island on this earth and facing extinction as a people. Please do not pretend that you have even an inkling of what I think or what I know outside of what I say here.
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            • Posted by lostsierra 10 years, 9 months ago
              You go stop Russia. Count me out. They will destroy your $ and still be there in 50 years. You simply won't be. You sanction Russia, they destroy the $. Use force, you lose.
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              • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 9 months ago
                Dude, I very rarely count anyone IN these days. No worries there. Something must be done to prevent history from backsliding. I too am Tea Party. I held Conservative ethics well before it became popular. As a cold war veteran I can assure you regardless of our finances the long term cost of doing nothing will be far worse than decimating our economy and beginning OUR recovery now (it must occur if we are ever to get on solid ground again). How does this issue with Crimea/Russia get resolved? With the stranglehold our politicians have placed this country in, I can't honestly say. But there must be a severe cost to to the Russians for such aggression and its high time we started acting like a competent global power again.
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                • Posted by lostsierra 10 years, 9 months ago
                  It is resolved. It's a done deal. There is no cost to be imposed. Don't wish to do what "acting like a competent global power again" entails. My family has no interest in fighting another Crimean War. It's theirs, they paid for it in blood. I have never met a Ukraine that was worth shit to piss on. If Russia wants them back they can have them with my blessings. Wrong venue, wrong time, Russia has not aggressed against USA. I have no ethnic, religious or family ties to eastern Europe. A ruined $ will kill off most of this country's population in six months.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 9 months ago
        Did the south have a right to self-determination? Do I have the right to secede from the US and my state? That is a very simplistic stance.
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        • Posted by lostsierra 10 years, 9 months ago
          This war was fought before, in the mid 1850s by Western Europe. The Euros left, badly bloodied, and the Russians stayed put. They fought the Germans for it in 1943, 10 months worth. The Russians are still there, Germans left. They will fight for it again, if you want. They will still be there 50 years from now.
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